Teams & Riders Jonas Vingegaard thread: Love in Iberia

[Red Rick]

He often does a positive split in ITTs, especially when not at his absolute best.

Honestly can't remember a single negative split or flat split TT by him.

 

[Netserk]

Honestly can't remember a single negative split or flat split TT by him.

Combloux?

 

[Red Rick]

Combloux?

Yes Rick, let's just forget the single most famous TT Vingegaard did.

If I wanna be really argumentative I'd argue it's not like Vingegaard started slow, and it's probably a TT where due to rest day and fatigue everyone else completely *** up their pacing, especially blowing up in the T3-T4 split as he was the only one going over 30kph average on a 5% average section.

Actually, looking at it again, there's quite a few riders who lost more to Vingegaard on the T2 split than from T2 to the finish, which is very counterintuitive for a TT like that

 

[Netserk]

About yesterday, he said today that they think that he accidentally changed to the inner ring at around 2 km to go, but that he hadn't noticed that.

EDIT: By the timing on the screen, he didn't lose any time to Evenepoel in the last 1.4 km of the stage.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

About yesterday, he said today that they think that he accidentally changed to the inner ring at around 2 km to go, but that he hadn't noticed that.

EDIT: By the timing on the screen, he didn't lose any time to Evenepoel in the last 1.4 km of the stage.

After a TdF ITT: I rode with my chain dropped for a few kilometers but didn't notice it. Not that it mattered: 2 minutes gained on Pogacar is very positive.

 

[Red Rick]

After a TdF ITT: I rode with my chain dropped for a few kilometers but didn't notice it. Not that it mattered: 2 minutes gained on Pogacar is very positive.

Tour 2027: "It was only when rewacthing the stage on the team bus that I realized I was riding a unicycle, which was deeply confusing, but riding Pogacar OTL is alright so I think I can be satisfied"

 

[Froome]

I expected a bit better, but he is missing the hard miles after not racing since March.

Nevertheless it wasn't that bad, and he will improve until the Tour and with more racing in his legs. I am not worried.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

I expected a bit better, but he is missing the hard miles after not racing since March.

Nevertheless it wasn't that bad, and he will improve until the Tour and with more racing in his legs. I am not worried.

I think he had kinda bad day actually (like Pogacar 2 days ago). I didn't expect him to suffer so much at the end. Tomorrow may be much better by him, methinks.

 

[theyoungest]

I expected a bit better, but he is missing the hard miles after not racing since March.

Nevertheless it wasn't that bad, and he will improve until the Tour and with more racing in his legs. I am not worried.

Nah, this was really poor. He was barely better than Jorgenson! Started looking back almost immediately after Pogi's attack.

I don't even care about the gap that much, he just didn't look good on the bike at all. All we can hope for is that this was a bad day, otherwise it's curtains for the Tour.

 

[Jan the Man]

Like I said on the Pog thread after the TT I would not read too much into one performance like this. The bigger worry is if he is persistently behind in the next two stages. I expect a better Vigno tomorrow.

 

[James M]

I think he had kinda bad day actually (like Pogacar 2 days ago). I didn't expect him to suffer so much at the end. Tomorrow may be much better by him, methinks.

Never let results and numbers fool you when the truth is beyond obvious. It's a really good duel—it's gonna be super close!!

I would love to have a meaningful debate about this and for it to be an actual duel—I’d love that too! But now you have to make stuff up, and there's an incredible amount of wishful thinking involved in even believing it's gonna be close. Disregard any numbers out there, ignore the fact that Pogačar crushed his previous record numbers left and right, and completely ignore everything factual just to say it's gonna be a 'duel'—I'm not into that. I only care about factual stuff.

Anyone watching every race under the sun and not letting their emotions dictate logic was absolutely not surprised today, it was super super obvious, as obvious even as hes riding away in Strade from Pidcock to put it in perspective.

 

[Froome]

I think he had kinda bad day actually (like Pogacar 2 days ago). I didn't expect him to suffer so much at the end. Tomorrow may be much better by him, methinks.

I don't think it was a horrible day since he achieved some gaps to everybody except pogacar (even if the gaps weren't small, like for Lipowitz).

I think that's it, he didn't raced since March, so he misses a bit of that" top final freshness" in the end if the race. He clearly suffered in the end.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Never let results and numbers fool you when the truth is beyond obvious. It's a really good duel—it's gonna be super close!!

I would love to have a meaningful debate about this and for it to be a actualy duel id love that too! But now you have to make stuff up, and there's an incredible amount of wishful thinking involved to even thinking its gonne be close, disregard any numbers out there, ignore the fact that Pogacar crush thru his previous record numbers left and right, and in total just ignore everything factualy throughout to say its a gonne be a''duel'' im not into that I only care about facts. Anyone watching every race under the sun and are not letting their emotion dictate the logic, abselutely zero people are surprised today, as obvious as the result that happened in strade when he rode away from Pidcock to put it in perspectiv.

I don't think it was a horrible day since he achieved some gaps to everybody except pogacar (even if the gaps weren't small, like for Lipowitz).

I think that's it, he didn't raced since March, so he misses a bit of that" top final freshness" in the end if the race. He clearly suffered in the end.

Vingo beat Lipowitz with a small margin. He wasn't even close to the mutant level for sure. Pogacar's level was huge today but I would expect Vingo to be closer than 1' (not necessarily matching Pogacar, who was super-strong, but surely closer).

 

[James M]

Like I said on the Pog thread after the TT I would not read too much into one performance like this. The bigger worry is if he is persistently behind in the next two stages. I expect a better Vigno tomorrow.

It shouldnt be needed to be said but its beyond obv that Pog wasnt even going all in at the TT for not wanting to give away numbers, the guy wasnt even sweathy,, or tired at all in the end and lost 30sec in first 8km anyone watching cycling believing in that if he went all inn well lets just say I envy you lol nothing else to be said...hes playing with his food like its almost to much disprespect honestly....Whatever it is what it is.

 

[Muren]

I expected a bit better, but he is missing the hard miles after not racing since March.

Nevertheless it wasn't that bad, and he will improve until the Tour and with more racing in his legs. I am not worried.

He will get better. Problem is it won't be enough.

Pog at current level will be superhard for Vinge to beat even in top shape.

Scary thing is that Pog will improve to the tour.

And Vinge can't follow a Pog attack anymore. The combination with Wellens, Narvaez, etc. setting a brutal tempo and then Pog's seated acceleration demolishes all competition. And when he has seperation he won't be brought back.

 

[Oldman]

It shouldnt be needed to be said but its beyond obv that Pog wasnt even going all in at the TT for not wanting to give away numbers, the guy wasnt even sweathy,, or tired at all in the end and lost 30sec in first 8km anyone watching cycling believing in that if he went all inn well lets just say I envy you lol nothing else to be said...hes playing with his food like its almost to much disprespect honestly....Whatever it is what it is.

Your observations don't match what I saw on the screen. He's sweating and in the interview he still looked like his pulse was very elevated from the effort. He didn't let up, at all; until he crossed the line so he put down an effort. That he could do that climb seated is a matter of technique; like Remco's TT.
It's possible yesterday was almost a state of from recon mission for him. His effort on the TT hill was respectable after the poor start.

 

[James M]

Vingo beat Lipowitz with a small margin. He wasn't even close to the mutant level for sure. Pogacar's level was huge today but I would expect Vingo to be closer than 1' (not necessarily matching Pogacar, who was super-strong, but surely closer).

Of course you say it could be closer in a made-up scenarioI'm not surprised anymore regarding this particular topic. He’s better than ever, by his own words and his team, going into the Dauphiné. Are you creating your own story again? I disagree. I think Pogačar can drop him even more if he wants the numbers and results definitely say so. Just helping you out so you won’t be surprised once again when the inevitable happens in the Tour.

He got dropped by Almeida all year long, so I wouldn’t say he was bad today. He was really good in the TT, considering Evenepoel as a benchmark—his form is good. Problem you fail is you expect Vingegaard to improve as much as, for instance (just to throw out a name since that’s your excuse today), Lipowitz for the foreseeable future every year. If that’s the case, no wonder you and some others keep getting surprised over and over, even though there's absolutely no reason to be.

And to make it easy for everyone just watch Pogi numbers. There hasn’t been a mountain in the last two years where he hasn’t ridden away with the utmost ease whenever he wants. Then look at his numbers this year—he’s stronger across all metrics throughount and quite significant even...Sorry to come across as D but to have this conversation objectively isnt possible based on factual things we know its just isnt. its hopeful thinking and always been for people understanding the numbers, but by all means, don’t let me stop that. Still, there’s a distinct difference nonetheless.

 

[James M]

Your observations don't match what I saw on the screen. He's sweating and in the interview he still looked like his pulse was very elevated from the effort. He didn't let up, at all; until he crossed the line so he put down an effort. That he could do that climb seated is a matter of technique; like Remco's TT.
It's possible yesterday was almost a state of from recon mission for him. His effort on the TT hill was respectable after the poor start.

Sure he was breathing he rode hard im sure but who cares. He lost 30sec in 7km, anyone thinking Pogacar can do that if he goes all inn like I said I envy em, i truly do... If people believe that at least I get why people are surprised so often when the same thing inivitable happen everytime and they shouldnt be in the slightest. Thank you.

That being said everytime I talk in here it come across as I hate Vingegaard which I dont at all, its just that to have a factual conversation based on facts, numbers etc its impossible to have objective conversation about a duel with Pogacar being close and it requires one being ignorant to everything we know based on numbers and everything left and right and just wishful thinking, and its just not how it works in real life. Its weird to constantly having to read it by a few thats all then when they each and everytime are surprised still it gets weird at one point AGAIN all this wouldnt be the case if it was actually close but it isnt,.
Vingegaard in his own merrits are infact not just a brilliant rider, hes a legend too btw but theres levels to this just like its level to much money I have and Musk.

The day someone are just by brute force better than this Pogi we see from 2024 and onwards without an asterick, you dont have to stand in line to tell me people relax, ill be in the front of the line myself I only care about numbers. They never lie.

 

[Rackham]

Of course you say it could be closer in a made-up scenarioI'm not surprised anymore regarding this particular topic. He’s better than ever, by his own words and his team, going into the Dauphiné. Are you creating your own story again? I disagree. I think Pogačar can drop him even more if he wants the numbers and results definitely say so. Just helping you out so you won’t be surprised once again when the inevitable happens in the Tour.

He got dropped by Almeida all year long, so I wouldn’t say he was bad today. He was really good in the TT, considering Evenepoel as a benchmark—his form is good. Problem you fail is you expect Vingegaard to improve as much as, for instance (just to throw out a name since that’s your excuse today), Lipowitz for the foreseeable future every year. If that’s the case, no wonder you and some others keep getting surprised over and over, even though there's absolutely no reason to be.

And to make it easy for everyone just watch Pogi numbers. There hasn’t been a mountain in the last two years where he hasn’t ridden away with the utmost ease whenever he wants. Then look at his numbers this year—he’s stronger across all metrics throughount and quite significant even...Sorry to come across as D but to have this conversation objectively isnt possible based on factual things we know its just isnt. its hopeful thinking and always been for people understanding the numbers, but by all means, don’t let me stop that. Still, there’s a distinct difference nonetheless.

After 2023, it would have been difficult to accurately predict Pog would return and be way, way stronger. So anyone watching (be it you, me, or someone else) can only ever make educated guesses.

And Plugge did hype up Vingo last week (even going so far as to say he's favorite for the Tour). This year he's also had a clean run into this Dauphiné and should be firing on all cylinders - or at least where he was in 2023. There can be no talk of crashes or anything right now. It's just man versus man. Visma went all-in today as well, trying to isolate Pog on that Cat 1 col, clearly setting Vingegaard up for a big showdown in the finale.

That's what people are seeing here, i.e. Vingegaard and Visma really did think they'd be closer. It's evident. So the fact they weren't (& Vingegaard was way closer to Lipowitz than he was to Pog in front, hell, Evenepoel was closer to Vingegaard today than Vinge was to Pog) is noteworthy and worth discussing.

 

[James M]

After 2023, it would have been difficult to accurately predict Pog would return and be way, way stronger. So anyone watching (be it you, me, or someone else) can only ever make educated guesses.

And Plugge did hype up Vingo last week (even going so far as to say he's favorite for the Tour). This year he's also had a clean run into this Dauphiné and should be firing on all cylinders - or at least where he was in 2023. There can be no talk of crashes or anything right now. It's just man versus man. Visma went all-in today as well, trying to isolate Pog on that Cat 1 col, clearly setting Vingegaard up for a big showdown in the finale.

That's what people are seeing here, i.e. Vingegaard and Visma really did think they'd be closer. It's evident. So the fact they weren't (& Vingegaard was way closer to Lipowitz than he was to Pog in front, hell, Evenepoel was closer to Vingegaard today than Vinge was to Pog) is noteworthy and worth discussing.

Evenepoel was closer to vingegaard last year too than Vinge was Pog..Again, don’t let me stop people from dreaming up wishful scenarios and making it as if it is close when it clearly isnt based on opinions opposed to numbers be my guest. Visma also thought Vingegaard would win San Sebastian last year, teams no matter who have to believe if not youve lost before the start dont take it to serious.

I’ll just say, if anyone expects Vingegaard to continuously keep up and improve as much as guys like Lipowitz even every year, given his build and biology, then they’re destined to be surprised a lot, that is all. Honestly, it shouldn't need to be said that looking to the past for answers will always lead you to the wrong conclusions but here we are

 

[TrekCyclist]

Did not look like Vingagaard was on his best today. On a climb like that, he should be able to put more than 20s on a big, more diesel-like guy like Lipowitz.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Did not look like Vingagaard was on his best today. On a climb like that, he should be able to put more than 20s on a big, more diesel-like guy like Lipowitz.

Sure, but Lipowitz probably didn't expect to be able to follow Pogačar so he will presumably have been less cooked mentally.

 

[Rackham]

Again, don’t let me stop people from dreaming up wishful scenarios and making it as if it is close when it clearly isnt based on opinions opposed to numbers be my guest. Visma also thought Vingegaard would win San Sebastian last year, teams no matter who have to believe if not youve lost before the start dont take it to serious.

I’ll just say, if anyone expects Vingegaard to continuously keep up and improve as much as guys like Lipowitz even every year, given his build and biology, then they’re destined to be surprised a lot, that is all. Honestly, it shouldn't need to be said that looking to the past for answers will always lead you to the wrong conclusions but here we are

Unless you're inside either rider's entourage, you're always just 'guessing'.

The thing about Vingegaard that's pretty jarring right now is Visma & Plugge hyped him up and he also started the Dauphiné on fire on Sunday, i.e. attacking on the flat like someone who couldn't wait to get this party rolling. His ITT was also really good.

So it's like... today's result cannot easily be handwaved or categorized as a 'work in progress'. It is what it is. They took the fight to UAE + Pog and... lost.

I mean you might sit here as a Pog fan and label them lunatics for trying but they really did believe they could win here, i.e. evident by the way they approached this race and the way they actually raced it.

 

[James M]

Unless you're inside either rider's entourage, you're always just 'guessing'.

The thing about Vingegaard that's pretty jarring right now is Visma & Plugge hyped him up and he also started the Dauphiné on fire on Sunday, i.e. attacking on the flat like someone who couldn't wait to get this party rolling. His ITT was also really good.

So it's like... today's result cannot easily be handwaved or categorized as a 'work in progress'. It is what it is. They took the fight to UAE + Pog and... lost.

I mean you might sit here as a Pog fan and label them lunatics for trying but they really did believe they could win here, i.e. evident by the way they approached this race and the way they actually raced it.

No, I find it incredibly hilarious if it’s entirely based on a team putting their trust in their own rider—as if they could do anything else? Like, that’s the reason? Oppose to everything which are factual. Wow. Yeah thats not hopeful thinking btw lol thanks for proving my point. Again, they did the same at San Sebastián last year. Every team does it every time. You have to try to instill faith and belief in your riders,..is the level were basing it on and the few who talks about this base it on? while simultaneously being ignorant of everything we know. Well thanks for proving my point then.

I mean, again, then it’s truly no surprise that a few are left surprised every time. I guess Movistar and Quintana fanboys were shell-shocked for years then if thats the thesis and all it takes, please continue on dont let me or facts stop it at least it make sense now.

 

[Rackham]

No, I find it incredibly hilarious if it’s entirely based on a team putting their trust in their own rider—as if they could do anything else? Like, that’s the reason? Oppose to everything which are factual. Wow. Yeah thats not hopeful thinking btw lol thanks for proving my point

I mean, again, then it’s truly no surprise that a few are left surprised every time. I guess Movistar and Quintana fanboys were shell-shocked for years then if thats the thesis and all it takes, please continue on dont let me or facts stop it at least it make sense but damn.

Okay. I'm sure cycling would be better then if everyone just refused to race against the Lord Master GodPog himself. Am I right?

I mean come on, I don't even know what you're arguing about anymore other than you find it personally insulting when someone somewhere might suggest Vingegaard in great shape can match Pog.

I mean I get it, you're a Pog fan. But Vingegaard was no good today by his own standards. It was a bad performance, not his best.