Teams & Riders Jonas Vingegaard thread: Love in Iberia

[Samu Cuenca]

I'm sure UAE also believed Pogi could win San Sebastian in 2022. It's a hard race, unless your name nearly almost rhymes with Scarecrow Swimming Pool.

 

[James M]

Okay. I'm sure cycling would be better then if everyone just refused to race against the Lord Master GodPog himself. Am I right?

I mean come on, I don't even know what you're arguing about anymore other than you find it personally insulting when someone somewhere might suggest Vingegaard in great shape can match Pog.

I mean I get it, you're a Pog fan. But Vingegaard was no good today by his own standards. It was a bad performance, not his best.

I’m really not as big a Pogacar fan as you might think. I enjoy him, yes, most of everyone in the world, yes—I sure do. Hard not to, but its entirely performance based. And I enjoy a few others as well, but not at all in the way I suspect you might assume.No, I’ve said several times that I wish it were the case that it was close and could be. But just a few people saying it’s going to be a close duel 1000 times, despite the reality and basic numbers proving it really isn’t close at all every time—that’s all it is. It doesn’t really matter who you or I like. Numbers never live.

I also think at one point contiously getting suprised when its beyond obvious is also yeah whatever im sure you get my point..Allowed to different opinions aswell thats why were here afterall, I just rely on factual stuff oppose to wishful thinking im not into that thats all, dont mistake that for me not wanting it to be closer cause I would prefer that too but it doesnt make it the reality just cause I want it too. Cheers

 

[Netserk]

It was a bad beating. He should have been 20" faster, even with too fast a start to the climb. Let's see what tomorrow brings, there's nothing to lose.

 

[Mayomaniac]

It was a bad beating. He should have been 20" faster, even with too fast a start to the climb. Let's see what tomorrow brings, there's nothing to lose.

That said, the Dauphine isn't the Tour and it's still his first race back after the crash related hiatus.

 

[Red Rick]

That said, the Dauphine isn't the Tour and it's still his first race back after the crash related hiatus.

2014 Nibali equivalent really.

 

[Cookster15]

The thing about Vingegaard that's pretty jarring right now is Visma & Plugge hyped him up

Not the first time Visma & Plugge hyped him up. Listen to them on the race radio on stage 15 of the 2024 Tour before PdB. They were so sure if Vingegaard rode to his FTP that Pogacar couldn't hold his wheel.

I actually like Vingegaard. Its the team that grates and its not just Plugge although he is the most annoying. I wonder if sometimes Jonas privately thinks they would just shut up.

 

[Red Rick]

Not the first time Visma & Plugge hyped him up. Listen to them on the race radio on stage 15 of the 2024 Tour before PdB. They were so sure if Vingegaard rode to his FTP that Pogacar couldn't hold his wheel.

I actually like Vingegaard. Its the team that grates and its not just Plugge although he is the most annoying. I wonder if sometimes Jonas privately thinks they would just shut up.

Basically all teams do thi where they say something like "better than ever" forgetting everyone is doing more every year.

 

[Netserk]

Not the first time Visma & Plugge hyped him up. Listen to them on the race radio on stage 15 of the 2024 Tour before PdB. They were so sure if Vingegaard rode to his FTP that Pogacar couldn't hold his wheel.

This is only in your head.

It's even worse than suggesting a pancake enjoyer must hate waffles.

 

[Cookster15]

Basically all teams do thi where they say something like "better than ever" forgetting everyone is doing more every year.

I am referring to what Visma were saying over the race radio. Something like: Matteo set a hard tempo, then Jonas attacks and Pogacar we know won't be able to follow. It was perceived as arrogance and that is why some fans don't like them.

This is only in your head.

No, its clearly recorded on the race highlights and it was discussed here when it happened.

 

[Netserk]

I am referring to what Visma were saying over the race radio. Something like: Matteo set a hard tempo, then Jonas attacks and Pogacar we know won't be able to follow. It was perceived as arrogance and that is why some fans don't like them.

No, its clearly recorded on the race highlights and it was discussed here when it happened.

An encouragement is what you hope for. It's not the objective belief that they "were so sure of".

Grischa: "But of course still a hard fight to drop Pogačar, eh. We need a big pull of Matteo for the first 20 minutes, and then Jonas you just have to do your TT after that, and we believe he will get in problems, eh."

Cookster: Visma team car said to Vinge on the radio that Pogacar couldn't match the watts in the heat Vingegaard was doing on PdB.

I don't think you summed up the radio message very well. I also fail to see what the alternative should have been to such an encouragement before their attack on the climb.

You distort what was said back then every single time you bring it up.

 

[Cookster15]

An encouragement is what you hope for. It's not the objective belief that they "were so sure of".

You distort what was said back then every single time you bring it up.

Perception not intent. You might not see it but many saw their comments as arrogance. And they were saying similar since the 2022 Tour - something along the lines of , if Jonas rides like this Pogacar can't hold you.

To me its a similar attitude we endured from Brailsford and Sky during notably the 2012 Tour. Back then Sky also talked about setting certain watt tempos. It worked. But no team can be that certain.

 

[Froome]

Just saw ammattipyoraily calculations and did some comparations to his shape in the last dauphines.

He is basically climbing like in the Dauphiné 2023 oroa bit worse. Similar performance to Croix Fer in the Dauphine 2023.

6.7 w/kg, but croix fer had more altitude.

 

[Froome]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1667575389365977088

View: https://x.com/ammattipyoraily/status/1667575389365977088?t=KFnFxLIGwXShv3FONa9jDA&s=19

https://twitter.com/x/status/1933546955893830073

View: https://x.com/ammattipyoraily/status/1933546955893830073?t=r8UdVfJmPY1gM2ziAlP3CQ&s=19

https://twitter.com/x/status/1933284120085606508

View: https://x.com/ammattipyoraily/status/1933284120085606508?t=KdVac5nTPfUVtI3Q9AiPDQ&s=19

 

[Red Rick]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1667575389365977088

View: https://x.com/ammattipyoraily/status/1667575389365977088?t=KFnFxLIGwXShv3FONa9jDA&s=19

https://twitter.com/x/status/1933546955893830073

View: https://x.com/ammattipyoraily/status/1933546955893830073?t=r8UdVfJmPY1gM2ziAlP3CQ&s=19

https://twitter.com/x/status/1933284120085606508

View: https://x.com/ammattipyoraily/status/1933284120085606508?t=KdVac5nTPfUVtI3Q9AiPDQ&s=19

Model says 6.7 is 20m40s with 100% drafting.

These models are so wack they *** out these insanely high values at high velocities.

Lanterne Rouge meanwhle cheekily normalizing to 60kg while every normal person uses 65 kg.

 

[Froome]

Model says 6.7 is 20m40s with 100% drafting.

These models are so wack they *** out these insanely high values at high velocities.

Lanterne Rouge meanwhle cheekily normalizing to 60kg while every normal person uses 65 kg.

By doing 60 kg, they went in the sensationalism camp, increasing the w/kg.

 

[Breh]

26kph

That's my afterwork ride average

 

[Lorzenz08]

Tomorrow is a big day. If Pogi attacks, even if Vinge loses but stay within 30 secs I think there will still be hope he rides into form by the TdF.
However if he loses by more than 30 secs again I think there will be serious doubts.

 

[Rou]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1667575389365977088

View: https://x.com/ammattipyoraily/status/1667575389365977088?t=KFnFxLIGwXShv3FONa9jDA&s=19

https://twitter.com/x/status/1933546955893830073

View: https://x.com/ammattipyoraily/status/1933546955893830073?t=r8UdVfJmPY1gM2ziAlP3CQ&s=19

https://twitter.com/x/status/1933284120085606508

View: https://x.com/ammattipyoraily/status/1933284120085606508?t=KdVac5nTPfUVtI3Q9AiPDQ&s=19

Everytime you post incorrect stuff I will be here to fact check you, my friend.
This is the link for the Dauphine stage in 2023: https://watts2win.eu/segment/421
You can check the gaps to the rest but the easiest way to see the difference is the performance index. It was 81 for Vingegaard on that day.
Yesterday Vingegaard's performance index was 90 which is the same level or slightly better than Marie Blanque (his best performance in 2023).
I am sure that Vingegaard will be even stronger in the Tour but claiming that he was weak or average yesterday is just coping.
Vingegaard now is in optimal shape for June.

 

[Berniece]

Everytime you post incorrect stuff I will be here to fact check you, my friend.
This is the link for the Dauphine stage in 2023: https://watts2win.eu/segment/421
You can check the gaps to the rest but the easiest way to see the difference is the performance index. It was 81 for Vingegaard on that day.
Yesterday Vingegaard's performance index was 90 which is the same level or slightly better than Marie Blanque (his best performance in 2023).
I am sure that Vingegaard will be even stronger in the Tour but claiming that he was weak or average yesterday is just coping.
Vingegaard now is in optimal shape for June.

That’s why he barely put time in the others

 

[Red Rick]

I love how people suddenly care about Watts2Win index when it suddenly suits the narrative when it's about the biggest trustmebro stats out there.

 

[Rou]

That’s why he barely put time in the others

What time do you want him to put in the others? It's a 20 min climb with a shallow section in the middle. He still put 30 secs into Matteo and 50 secs into Remco. I said it before so let me repeat:
If Pogacar was not in the race and Jonas doesn't explode following him he easily puts +30 secs in Lipowitz and +60 secs in Remco and we would be calling him the Destroyer.

 

[meat puppet]

What time do you want him to put in the others? It's a 20 min climb with a shallow section in the middle. He still put 30 secs into Matteo and 50 secs into Remco. I said it before so let me repeat:
If Pogacar was not in the race and Jonas doesn't explode following him he easily puts +30 secs in Lipowitz and +60 secs in Remco and we would be calling him the Destroyer.

Yea. And what would the time gaps have been in the sky era in this sort of a climb? A wee bit less me remembers.

 

[Rou]

I love how people suddenly care about Watts2Win index when it suddenly suits the narrative when it's about the biggest trustmebro stats out there.

At least it's consistent and doesn't favor one rider against another. Yates' index on the Finestre was 95 and we all agreed that it's a WTF performance.

 

[TrekCyclist]

I dont think Vingegaard will do something very different until TdF - no matter if he wins today, loses 30s or loses 90s. He will probably prepare as planned, and then see how far it brings him. (unless Visma finds how to close the gap on UAE, related to the other part of the forum).

If Pogacar is like yesterday during the complete 3 weeks - there is not much to do I guess. But Pogacar has had his off days during every TdF so far - somtimes more severe sometimes less.

 

[Red Rick]

At least it's consistent and doesn't favor one rider against another. Yates' index on the Finestre was 95 and we all agreed that it's a WTF performance.

I didn't agree it was a WTF performance at all. It was very strong, but not insane.

The problem with the index is it tries to generalize all sorts of things that are basically impossible to generalize and as a result it itself skews results very heavily.

If you look at Finestre and the performance index it gets, the 9 fastest riders ALL did their personal bests and #10 Bardet did his seasonal best 2 weeks from retirement, which is gigantic red flag that the +5 correction it gets is just wrong.

It's literally a model that says it doesn't account for wind, drafting, etc, so the adjustment is entirely based on altitude, prior fatigue, and the presence of gravel.