Julian Alaphilippe

[Singer01]

Re: Re:

Well at least JA showed a bit more than the likes of Froome before turning into a GC rider....in any case, I like JA and I really hope he loses yellow soon....

A bit more? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Alaphillipe best GC result before this race 33
Froome best GC result before his breakthrough 36

Basically no difference whatsoever, his performances in other races are irrelevant, 3 week races are a totally different beast.

 

[red_flanders]

Re: Re:

Well at least JA showed a bit more than the likes of Froome before turning into a GC rider....in any case, I like JA and I really hope he loses yellow soon....

A bit more? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Alaphillipe best GC result before this race 33
Froome best GC result before his breakthrough 36

Basically no difference whatsoever, his performances in other races are irrelevant, 3 week races are a totally different beast.

Dude. Let’s compare their relative palmares at this point. Alaphilippe is a major talent and a winner of multiple major races, whose tour results are a factor of him working for others. Froome had done exactly nothing.

That a team leader and winner of multiple big races and classics turns into a guy doing well on GC for a couple of weeks is light years less preposterous than a nobody who was a late replacement about to be dropped from his contract turning into the dominant rider of his era. I don’t buy Alaphilippe for a second but let’s not descend into comical revisionism here...

 

[therealthing]

There is one area where Alaphilippe I feel is more suspicious than Froome. He has been firing on all cylinders since January with no signs of letting up. Froome at least had a slower build up- at least in his later wins. He still won a few stage races of course.

Alaphilippe's team is also crap in terms of GC so I don't see how he can be conserving much energy

 

[roundabout]

Re: Re:

Well at least JA showed a bit more than the likes of Froome before turning into a GC rider....in any case, I like JA and I really hope he loses yellow soon....

A bit more? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Alaphillipe best GC result before this race 33
Froome best GC result before his breakthrough 36

Basically no difference whatsoever, his performances in other races are irrelevant, 3 week races are a totally different beast.

Dude. Let’s compare their relative palmares at this point. Alaphilippe is a major talent and a winner of multiple major races, whose tour results are a factor of him working for others. Froome had done exactly nothing.

That a team leader and winner of multiple big races and classics turns into a guy doing well on GC for a couple of weeks is light years less preposterous than a nobody who was a late replacement about to be dropped from his contract turning into the dominant rider of his era. I don’t buy Alaphilippe for a second but let’s not descend into comical revisionism here...

Ha

This is teetering dangerously close to the 'he was great track rider, so, dur, he should be great on the road' argument.

And a potential GC contender would not have to work for others. Even at QS.

Also great that the ToC finally got the recognition it deserves.

 

[red_flanders]

Re: Re:

The last thing I'm claiming is that Alaphillippe is believable as a GC contender, I thought that was clear. All I'm saying is that to say he showed bit more than Froome did before his arrival at the GC party is a rather massive understatement. And he's a looooong way from showing the kind of dominance that Froome immediately did at that point, waiting for people on climbs and blowing away the likes of Alberto Contador.

It's not the same level of stupid. But then, nothing I've ever seen is the same level of stupid as Froome becoming a GT legend.

JA is IMO obviously on some special sauce right now. So no, it's nothing near the Wiggins/Thomas track star to GC winner argument. Not sure how else to make that more clear.

 

[luckyboy]

If you are telling me that 2011 Froome or 2019 Alaphilippe can take yellow and then defend on some mountain stages and a TT then only one of them is remotely believable.

If you are telling me that they are winning the Tour de France then they are both ridiculous, but yeah at least one of them showed he can TT and climb a bit, even in minor races. If you talk to me about Froome in 2011 it's like telling me Jaco Venter or Gijs Van Hoecke will win the Tour.

 

[Koronin]

I've changed my mind that JA was a bit below Froome/Armstrong to he's not equal with them for not being believable. Bernal and Pinot are at least believable.

 

[jmdirt]

I've read something to the effect of: "winning one day races and winning GTs is two different tings" on here as well as other www locations. Can someone provide the proof of that please? Some physiology instead of anecdotal rhetoric?

Without actual science I suppose that we can discuss the general ability to recover for three weeks because i assume that is what people are referring to. Using JA as the example, he races two hard days on the weekend and then trains hard during the week for the entire spring...woh, that's just like GT racing (a few hard days, a few rolling days...). It makes more sense that a guys like JA could do this than a guy who doesn't even really start racing until May (or even June).

 

[Scarponi]

So if manages to win this Tour what does he do next year? Go complete mountain goat and give up any explosive one day hilly riding? Or just chalk it up to a once in a life time opportunity seeing they won’t let him get as
Much leeway in the future. Surely he could target a Vuelta with the Muritos in the future

 

[brownbobby]

Re:

I've read something to the effect of: "winning one day races and winning GTs is two different tings" on here as well as other www locations. Can someone provide the proof of that please? Some physiology instead of anecdotal rhetoric?

Without actual science I suppose that we can discuss the general ability to recover for three weeks because i assume that is what people are referring to. Using JA as the example, he races two hard days on the weekend and then trains hard during the week for the entire spring...woh, that's just like GT racing (a few hard days, a few rolling days...). It makes more sense that a guys like JA could do this than a guy who doesn't even really start racing until May (or even June).

Eh

How many one day races have 30km long climbs?

 

[proffate]

Given the nature of human physiology and the shape of aerobic/anaerobic power curve, I find it pretty hard to believe that JA's power curve would cross over with anyone else's anywhere past maybe the 20 minute mark; even then, the difference between 20 minute power and 60 minute power is so small that if you aren't faster than a guy for 20 minutes, you can hardly be any better for 60 minutes. Certainly on these big Alpine climbs with single digit gradients, that difference can be somewhat countered by drafting. I'm more inclined to believe that JA will be dropped due to altitude, as I think there's a lot of individual variation in response to altitude.

 

[jmdirt]

Re: Re:

I've read something to the effect of: "winning one day races and winning GTs is two different tings" on here as well as other www locations. Can someone provide the proof of that please? Some physiology instead of anecdotal rhetoric?

Without actual science I suppose that we can discuss the general ability to recover for three weeks because i assume that is what people are referring to. Using JA as the example, he races two hard days on the weekend and then trains hard during the week for the entire spring...woh, that's just like GT racing (a few hard days, a few rolling days...). It makes more sense that a guys like JA could do this than a guy who doesn't even really start racing until May (or even June).

Eh

How many one day races have 30km long climbs?

None that I know of. Your point is?

 

[brownbobby]

I think most people agree that Allaphillipe is an exceptional talent, and there's every reason to believe that with a switch in focus he has all off the attributes to win grand tours

Unlike some, I also think Wiggins and Thomas were exceptional talents firstly on the track, who then with a lengthy and sustained shift in focus went on to win GT's (that's not to say I think they were/are clean, but I don't agree with some who think it's impossible to shift from one cycling discipline to another with great success, but that's a different debate that's well covered already)

What really stands out is the sudden appearance of JA's GC abilities following such an incredible spring....it's about as plausible as Wiggins/Thomas winning Olympic gold on the track in April then going on to ace the TDF in July....at least they had the decency to wait a few years before springing that one on us...

 

[brownbobby]

Re: Re:

I've read something to the effect of: "winning one day races and winning GTs is two different tings" on here as well as other www locations. Can someone provide the proof of that please? Some physiology instead of anecdotal rhetoric?

Without actual science I suppose that we can discuss the general ability to recover for three weeks because i assume that is what people are referring to. Using JA as the example, he races two hard days on the weekend and then trains hard during the week for the entire spring...woh, that's just like GT racing (a few hard days, a few rolling days...). It makes more sense that a guys like JA could do this than a guy who doesn't even really start racing until May (or even June).

Eh

How many one day races have 30km long climbs?

None that I know of. Your point is?

My point is that the demands of long sustained climbs are very different to the demands of the typical one day races

If it really was as simple as you suggest, then why don't we see more people dominating the one day classics as well as GT's?

As for proof, history is the best proof I can offer, it's not unheard of, but it's very rare to see genuine GC contenders consistently at the sharp end of the Spring Classics, certainly not in the same season

JA is proving the exception to this rule....and I guess that's why he's raising so much suspicion

Sorry, I guess that's just anecdotal rather than the physiological science you requested

 

[red_flanders]

Re: Re:

Also great that the ToC finally got the recognition it deserves.

Some, (not nearly all) of Alaphillipe's palmares, just for kicks:

2013
1st, Points Classification, Tour de l'Avenir
1st, Stage 7, Tour de l'Avenir
4th, U23 Road Race
1st, Stage 3, U23 Thüringen Rundfahrt
2nd, Points Classification, U23 Thüringen Rundfahrt

2014
1st, Points Classification, Tour de l'Ain
4th, General Classification, Tour de l'Ain
1st, Stage 4, Tour de l'Ain

2015
1st, Youth Classification, Tour of California
2nd, General Classification, Tour of California
1st, Stage 7, Tour of California
3rd, Stage 6 ITT, Tour of California
3rd, Stage, 3, Tour of California
2nd, Liège - Bastogne - Liège
2nd, Fleche Wallonne
7th, Amstel Gold
2nd, Stage 6, Tour of Catalunya

2016
2nd, UEC Road Championships
4th, Olympic Games Road Race
1st, Youth Classification, Criterium du Dauphiné
2nd, Points Classification, Criterium du Dauphiné
6th, General Classification, Criterium du Dauphiné
2nd, Stage 4, Criterium du Dauphiné
1st, General Classification, Tour of California
2nd, Mountains Classification, Tour of California
3rd, Points Classification, Tour of California
1st, Stage 3, Tour of California
2nd, La Flèche Wallone
6th, Amstel Gold

2017
2nd, Il Lombardia
1st, Stage 8, Vuelta a España
3rd, Milan San Remo
1st, Stage 4 ITT, Paris Nice
1st, Points Classification, Paris Nice
1st, Youth Classification, Paris Nice
5th, General Classification, Paris Nice

2018
1st, General Classification, Okolo Slovenska
1st, General Classification, Tour of Britain
1st, Stage 3, Tour of Britain
1st, Mountains Classification, Tour de France
5th, Points Classification, Tour de France
1st, Stage 16, Tour de France
1st, Stage 10, Tour de France
2nd, Stage 14, Tour de France
3rd, Stage 3 ITT, Tour de France
1st, La Flèche Wallone
4th, Liège - Bastogne - Liège

And this year it's been LBL, Fleche, rocking Tirreno, 4th at Amstel, Mountains in the Dauphine, and on and on.

So maybe a bit more than the TOC.

 

[Koronin]

I think most people agree that Allaphillipe is an exceptional talent, and there's every reason to believe that with a switch in focus he has all off the attributes to win grand tours

Unlike some, I also think Wiggins and Thomas were exceptional talents firstly on the track, who then with a lengthy and sustained shift in focus went on to win GT's (that's not to say I think they were/are clean, but I don't agree with some who think it's impossible to shift from one cycling discipline to another with great success, but that's a different debate that's well covered already)

What really stands out is the sudden appearance of JA's GC abilities following such an incredible spring....it's about as plausible as Wiggins/Thomas winning Olympic gold on the track in April then going on to ace the TDF in July....at least they had the decency to wait a few years before springing that one on us...

This is exactly my issue. Talent yes, being able to suddenly climb this well over night, nope. Also why I'm willing to believe Thomas more than JA.

 

[roundabout]

ToC win is the toughest and highest rated stage race that he has won.

And lol at the bunch of classics you highlighted, guess this guy is a plausible winner now

1992

2ème du Championnat de Zürich

1993

Champion du Monde

1994

2ème de Liège-Bastogne-Liège
2ème de la Clasica San Sebastian
7ème du Tour de Suisse

1995

1er de la Clasica San Sebastian
6ème de Liège-Bastogne-Liège

1996

1er de la Flèche Wallonne
2ème de Paris-Nice
2ème de Liège-Bastogne-Liège
4ème de la Leeds International Classic
4ème du Championnat de Zürich
6ème de l'épreuve ITT

 

[red_flanders]

So for the third time, I’m not suggesting he’s a plausible winner, and further I don’t think he’ll win. I’m suggesting comparisons to Froome are absurd.

 

[Merckx index]

Someone mentioned LA as a one-day rider who suddenly began winning GTs. DiLuca is very relevant, too. He won both Amstel and Flèche in 2005, then went right to the Giro, and almost made the podium. As I recall, he was burning matches early, winning uphill sprints like a typical classic rider, then shocking everyone by staying competitive in the climbing stages later. His performance there--not to mention winning it two years later (after winning LBL), and finishing second two years after that--was at least as surprising as Ala now. And we know how that turned out.

 

[roundabout]

Re:

So for the third time, I’m not suggesting he’s a plausible winner, and further I don’t think he’ll win. I’m suggesting comparisons to Froome are absurd.

Ok, so for the second time, his other race results are not particularly relevant.

A 3 minute effort up Mur de Huy or a 5 minute climb of the Poggio are about as relevant to a 50 minute climb or 35 minute ITT as a 4K IP.

 

[Fergoose]

Re: Re:

I've read something to the effect of: "winning one day races and winning GTs is two different tings" on here as well as other www locations. Can someone provide the proof of that please? Some physiology instead of anecdotal rhetoric?

Without actual science I suppose that we can discuss the general ability to recover for three weeks because i assume that is what people are referring to. Using JA as the example, he races two hard days on the weekend and then trains hard during the week for the entire spring...woh, that's just like GT racing (a few hard days, a few rolling days...). It makes more sense that a guys like JA could do this than a guy who doesn't even really start racing until May (or even June).

Eh

How many one day races have 30km long climbs?

None that I know of. Your point is?

My point is that the demands of long sustained climbs are very different to the demands of the typical one day races

If it really was as simple as you suggest, then why don't we see more people dominating the one day classics as well as GT's?

As for proof, history is the best proof I can offer, it's not unheard of, but it's very rare to see genuine GC contenders consistently at the sharp end of the Spring Classics, certainly not in the same season

JA is proving the exception to this rule....and I guess that's why he's raising so much suspicion

Sorry, I guess that's just anecdotal rather than the physiological science you requested

Thirded. Thomas and Wiggins dedicated themselves for years to adapt to be able to follow a Sky train tempo to victory. Julian is out of the blue and stunning his teammates. I will take anyone over him for this TdF.

 

[red_flanders]

Re: Re:

So for the third time, I’m not suggesting he’s a plausible winner, and further I don’t think he’ll win. I’m suggesting comparisons to Froome are absurd.

Ok, so for the second time, his other race results are not particularly relevant.

A 3 minute effort up Mur de Huy or a 5 minute climb of the Poggio are about as relevant to a 50 minute climb or 35 minute ITT as a 4K IP.

They are to the comparison to Froome, not to his GC plausibility.

Is this thing on?

 

[zlev11]

Re: Re:

So for the third time, I’m not suggesting he’s a plausible winner, and further I don’t think he’ll win. I’m suggesting comparisons to Froome are absurd.

Ok, so for the second time, his other race results are not particularly relevant.

A 3 minute effort up Mur de Huy or a 5 minute climb of the Poggio are about as relevant to a 50 minute climb or 35 minute ITT as a 4K IP.

well just last season we had two GT winners that were former track riders so maybe it is relevant then?

 

[Saint Unix]

Re: Re:

Thirded. Thomas and Wiggins dedicated themselves for years to adapt to be able to follow a Sky train tempo to victory. Julian is out of the blue and stunning his teammates. I will take anyone over him for this TdF.

Not true at all. Wiggins was climbing alongside superdopers Contador, Armstrong and Schlecks before Sky was even a team, even after finishing the Giro the same year. It wasn't as completely out of the blue as with Froome, but it still made absolutely no sense to anyone at the time.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Besides Cunego and Di Luca has any other rider won a GT and Monument in the same year the last 20 years.