junior races borderline doping

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Zorotheslacker said:
I didn't really get any answer from that. I think the USA kids are not doping and you think they are.
I would never categorically accuse children of doping. Ever.

Even when Chris Carmichael was doping kids I would not ever fault those kids for doping as teenagers. Pay attention to what I'm saying there. As kids, they get no judgement from me. Ever. Because that is Carmichael's/Wenzel's abuse of power among a host of totally inappropriate behavior from adults.

Is that clear?

Zorotheslacker said:
How bout this:
Take the top 20 National RR riders and what % do you think are/were doping?
M10-12
M13-14
M15-16
M17-18

How / why do you think so?
That question is impossible to answer. They are kids in various stages of growth. You cannot use results to disprove doping either as the phrase "Never tested positive" has taken on new meaning since Armstrong and Marion Jones. To be consistent with what I posted above, I'd never judge a kid if she/he did. The adults in that scenario however are another matter.

Zorotheslacker said:
BTW - do you have a kid that races?
I have a teenager involved in a sport for many years now. It's not cycling. The key for me as a parent is the child is self-engaged and enthusiastic in a physical activity and in a healthy peer group. So far, that's worked out well.
 
Oct 14, 2012
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Zoro, your said "The sponsor that is a supplements company, I know of no such history that those who ran it were cheaters or that riders have to take their stuff - as was implied here. Source - Facebook friends."

Might be the case, but that team has some interesting characters that the manager/sponsors thought were perfectly OK to join despite being dopers:

Try Googling this guy: http://www.monstermediaracing.com/team/2013/kayle-leogrande/

4 years ban for EPO.

Or this guy's history:
http://velonews.competitor.com/2011/07/news/monster-medias-joshua-webster-accepts-doping-suspension_184207

Now there's a couple of "mentors" I wouldn't want around my kids.
 
Sep 25, 2010
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TrackCynic said:
Or this guy's history:
http://velonews.competitor.com/2011/07/news/monster-medias-joshua-webster-accepts-doping-suspension_184207

Now there's a couple of "mentors" I wouldn't want around my kids.
Yeah, it's always fishy when a bodybuilding supplement company builds a cycling team around a few ex-dopers and some other fishy characters. The monster kids (and weisel's team specialized kids) are flat-out fast, and it would be pretty depressing to hear any rumors.

That velonews article has some of the best writing I've ever seen in a cycling publication, specifically the quote below.

"The penalty would negate his 91st place finish in one of the three Tulsa Tough criteriums. He was listed as a DNF in the other two. The history of competitive cycling will also be forever changed as his 29th place finish at the Chevron Manhattan Beach Grand Prix on June 26 will now be stricken from the record books."
 
Aug 20, 2013
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TrackCynic said:
Zoro, your said "The sponsor that is a supplements company, I know of no such history that those who ran it were cheaters or that riders have to take their stuff - as was implied here. Source - Facebook friends."

Might be the case, but that team has some interesting characters that the manager/sponsors thought were perfectly OK to join despite being dopers:

Try Googling this guy: http://www.monstermediaracing.com/team/2013/kayle-leogrande/

4 years ban for EPO.

Or this guy's history:
http://velonews.competitor.com/2011/07/news/monster-medias-joshua-webster-accepts-doping-suspension_184207

Now there's a couple of "mentors" I wouldn't want around my kids.
My kid is on the everything paid by dad program, not on any development team. My other kid went through the soccer world and we had characters that are spending time in jail now. I can't find a truly competitive cycling group, soccer club, or other sports for that matter where I'd feel like just leaving my kids around any random member - can you? I never suggested anyone just checks their kids into a club and go away.

As to development teams - is there one everyone approves of? Seems the ones I actually see at races have a director, mentor or someone that was a doper. There are always people to avoid and the mentor title is different than a rider choosing a mentor/trainer. This year been to many races and I know most the kids and most the parents from most the clubs that compete and they mostly know me. The kids are just fast "off the charts" to quote the original poster. There are things being done to get fast, but not doping from what I can tell.

I still worry more about cars - just saying.
 
Oct 14, 2012
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Hi Zoro,

I agree on the cars thing; we're lucky enough to have a velodrome nearby for my kids. In terms of day-to-day dangers, cars scare me much more than doping but since this is a doping-in-cycling forum and we're talking about juniors and the influence of adults on their mental and physical wellbeing I think we can take that as read.

I don't think anyone sees these coaches/managers/mentors as substitute childcare as you suggest, but these people play an enormous role in shaping these kids' attitudes, knowledge and habits. A roadie coach will spend more time with your kids than you will - riding 300-500 miles per week requires a huge amount of contact. Add into that the camps, races and travel time they spend together and it's a big deal.

I want to be clear that I'm not saying everyone in these dev teams is untrustworthy or not worthy of training kids, but US cycling's recent history is still influencing elite riding. Hincapie Dev Team, Garmin dev team, Specialized dev team. What next? Levi Leipheimer Dev Team? Until 12 months ago, the junior series in Cal was still called the Lance Armstrong Junior Points Series! Even though just about everyone knew what was going down with him. USAC and the regional federations are a joke - they've done nothing to keep kids away from the influence of a totally discredited US cycling generation. To them, it's business.

I too, don't think these juniors are doping, especially the young ones - but there's always that nagging doubt when you bring in Weisel, Ochowicz, Johnson USAC and read the history of what they've done to kids in the past. http://velonews.competitor.com/2006/04/news/six-years-later-strock-case-comes-to-court_9763

Without properly investigating all the dev teams, one that does come to mind in terms of "approval" is Bear Development - they originate from mountain biking rather than a stained road past and Ben Jacques-Maynes is involved - one of the few US pros I've ever seen make an honest statement on anti-doping. The only question mark is that they are linked to Trek, a company with no morale compass as they demonstrated in the Lance and Lemond fiasco. But I think Trek probably have little to do with their training methods or morals.

Rather than junior trade teams, I prefer the model of VeloSport, Tieni Duro, Davis, etc as the way to have kids in the sport of cycling. Run by parents and enthusiasts instead of people with business or USAC interests.
 
Zorotheslacker said:
I can't find a truly competitive cycling group, soccer club, or other sports for that matter where I'd feel like just leaving my kids around any random member - can you? I never suggested anyone just checks their kids into a club and go away.
I definitely agree with you, there's no checking your kid in and going away.

I definitely have at least one club in my area that I trust everyone there. All of the mentors have real jobs! The mentors lead rich lives and have some accomplishments racing bikes and more accomplishments in their real-work careers. That's the best case scenario.

To the bolded, that's an interesting priority. I see it quite a bit as a parent and wonder if the goal to raise an engaged, healthy kid to adulthood that acquires life skills through athletics or to "be a winner" which somehow is supposed to lead to functional life skills. Two different things.
 
Aug 20, 2013
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DirtyWorks said:
To the bolded, that's an interesting priority. I see it quite a bit as a parent and wonder if the goal to raise an engaged, healthy kid to adulthood that acquires life skills through athletics or to "be a winner" which somehow is supposed to lead to functional life skills. Two different things.
Competing to win is not bad in and of itself. I guess the priority is to do their best, but if their best was not in shot of winning - the sport was not the best fit. As opposed to those sports that get kids things for college, cycling is something that is done because it is loved. Being competitive adds pressure of course, but also accomplishment and confidence. Can that translate to success in life? I tend to think so as some life skills are acquired. But that is not the main point. Being competitive is recreation - if that makes sense.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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peterst6906 said:
Rubbish from someone who knows nothing but wants to throw accusations at young teenage girls.

My daughter is ranked #2 in Australia in a major discipline and is in the age group you are accusing. She hasn't taken so much as a vitamin pill in her entire life. She only takes any form of medication when she's sick.

There is no way she is involved in doping and as she is ranked where she is (already competing against Olympians) doping is not the, all in rubbish you are accusing our junior girls of.

You are full of rubbish and you should withdraw your earlier statement and acknowledge that you have no real knowledge of swimming in Australia.
stop projecting your consideration of doping.

those australian sisters, you can see it in their foreheads. If you compare the physiques to the Lisa Curry epoch, they are different physiques.

doping inandof itself, is not an evil. you are projecting this. i do not say it is an evil, or less of character, i make no value judgement. you are the one transferring your value judgement of doping on me, and make out it is a smear.

i would not dope, nor encourage someone to, but this is my choice innit. The female swimmers from Brisbane that are setting textile suit WR are not doing it on bread and water. But dont transfer your preconceived position on doping. the only value judgement i will make, is if it manipulates a females hormone balance like the GDR for fertility.

I have not smeared your daughter. I just said, the 4x100 women sprinters will all be on some strong stuff. you can stick your head in the sand and believe that missy franklin is on bread and water. like Michelle Smith.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Zorotheslacker said:
You are addressing two issues:

-Doping and those with a cheating legacy. I understand that and thank you. I have a view it is better to be gracious toward those we really know nothing about what they are taking. As to legacy - sure - DQ them from being involved with youth. The sponsor that is a supplements company, I know of no such history that those who ran it were cheaters or that riders have to take their stuff - as was implied here. Source - Facebook friends. Like any at any GNC there is stuff you can take legally and race and stuff you can't. And as you mentioned, I've seen more age based cheating and some gear cheating.

-Trade teams in Junior racing. USA Cycling defines a Junior as one 18 and below. I agree with you 100%. The better solution I think is get more development teams to compete against each other. Easier said than done and harder with the view being on a team everyone is somehow corrupt.
guarantee you some of the under-age australian men/boys have taken gear
 
Mar 13, 2009
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DirtyWorks said:
I would never categorically accuse children of doping. Ever.

Even when Chris Carmichael was doping kids I would not ever fault those kids for doping as teenagers. Pay attention to what I'm saying there. As kids, they get no judgement from me. Ever. Because that is Carmichael's/Wenzel's abuse of power among a host of totally inappropriate behavior from adults.
right. that is my criticism of jnrs doping. is their agency must be in question.

genevieve jeanson had her coach/boyfriend/husband who was, what a dozen years or more older than her, dope her when she was 16.

is a problem
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Zorotheslacker said:
Competing to win is not bad in and of itself. I guess the priority is to do their best, but if their best was not in shot of winning - the sport was not the best fit. As opposed to those sports that get kids things for college, cycling is something that is done because it is loved. Being competitive adds pressure of course, but also accomplishment and confidence. Can that translate to success in life? I tend to think so as some life skills are acquired. But that is not the main point. Being competitive is recreation - if that makes sense.
emphasis should be competing.

winning is external locus of control. and adults should offer a different example
 
Mar 16, 2013
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Strange thread. Agree that the juniors on this team shouldn't be posting what products they are using on social media, or even be using the products in the first place. It would be much more encouraging to see them posting photos of the nutritious meals the elders on the team have shown them how to make for themselves, rather than a post about going to Taco Bell being followed by one with a picture of the pills and powders they are using.

Junior teams should be set up to give kids the tools to be independent of the excess marketed to them; instead it appears they are becoming more dependent psychologically on the stuff that gives a placebo effect at best, can be a drain financially, and increases the risk of testing positive for trace amounts of a banned substance in a contaminated supplement.

What I find most disappointing, though, is that these kids are being handicapped psychologically if they truly think they need supplements.
 
Zorotheslacker said:
Being competitive is recreation - if that makes sense.
Yes, it does. IMHO, some personalities even as kids thrive in competition. In my experience though, not that many kids have that personality organically.

As blackcat stated, best case scenario is winning is ephemeral.

There are a long list of minor athletes, and a few more prominent whose lives are a wreck off their field of play. Did the parent(s)/guardians/coaches do a "good job?" IMHO, no. That should be consistent with a previous post where I do not judge kids, but the adults (or lack of) in influential roles while the kid is growing up.

Now, honestly, if the next Lemond REALLY was riding in a club, Wiesel's USAC club would likely supplement developmen, then USACDF (aka Wiesel) would try to take over from there. A parent would identify Wiesel and Co as risks, then moderate exposure to the acknowledged and suspected dopers.
 
Aug 22, 2013
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DirtyWorks said:
I would never categorically accuse children of doping. Ever.

Even when Chris Carmichael was doping kids I would not ever fault those kids for doping as teenagers. Pay attention to what I'm saying there. As kids, they get no judgement from me. Ever. Because that is Carmichael's/Wenzel's abuse of power among a host of totally inappropriate behavior from adults.

Is that clear?
Juniors should not be considered 100% innocent when caught cheating (in anything), unless of course they are 100% innocent.

Of course we should not be naming them on a forum and I think naming these junior teams should also not be done.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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blackcat said:
right. that is my criticism of jnrs doping. is their agency must be in question.

genevieve jeanson had her coach/boyfriend/husband who was, what a dozen years or more older than her, dope her when she was 16.

is a problem
With many young riders it is a negative influence for sure, with her maybe not! It very well could have improved her quality of life even up until now. Have you watched interviews of her?

How about Hincapie, his junior doping certainly affected him positively, or Lance's JR doping. But for many they end up not making it or psychologically collapsing due to loosing and being doped at the same time. That is sad and of course the way some drugs like HGH affect a healthy normal youngster are unknown.
 

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