junior races borderline doping

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Mar 26, 2010
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mewmewmew13 said:
pretty much underscores what I think USA cycling for most juniors is all about...kids whose parents are wealthy enough to buy them all the equipment and development opportunities so their kid can be a 'star'
I've always thought junior development for USA Cycling was about being part of and maintaining the "in" club. Wealth may play a big part in that, but it's not the only thing. You want to **** off USAC? Bypass their "pipeline" and system and take a group of kids to Europe to race on your own dime.
 
Apr 1, 2013
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proffate said:
Their team and their sponsor instruct them to talk up these products. The products themselves are FDA regulated. They're just over-priced caffeine, proteins and vitamins with a brand image targeted to body-builders. Posting on social media: it's part of the marketing strategy. I agree that forcing juniors you're supposedly "developing" to market your products is ****ty, in fact I think that encouraging juniors or u23 riders to ride bikes instead of building character through volunteering, working real jobs, studying, or joining debate club is rather a disservice. But I don't see how this is even related to doping. By posting in this forum you're intentionally trying to create associations which in reality don't exist. Are you also going to flip out if they instagram a picture of a jamba juice with a protein additive in it?
:rolleyes:

these supplements can lead to doping especially because parents and usac do not do anything about it. The point is, if juniors cannot even control their supplemental intake their exposure to banned substances would be greater. If they believe supplements create that much an advantage surely they will look for new "supplements."

from usada:
“Using any form of dietary supplement may result in a positive test for prohibited substances leading to a suspension and/or other penalties. Vitamins, minerals, herbs, amino acids and other dietary substances may contain prohibited or illegal substances that may or may not be listed on the label. Any athlete who takes a vitamin, mineral, herb, amino acid or other dietary supplement does so at his or her own risk of committing a doping violation.”

Juniors have no friggin idea whats in these products. They take whatever they are given because their sponsor provides it to them even if the products are not supposed to be taken by anyone under 18. They post on social media that these are magical wonders and are very important in their daily training and racing. Sounds a bit fishy to me imo.
 
Sep 29, 2012
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will10 said:
I'm not being funny but 1000 miles a month, even as a junior, is not that much. It's a big load but even I was capable of maintaining that as a junior road racing and there were guys doing a lot more than me (several of whom have gone on to turn pro). Obviously it's very dependent on what that 1000 miles is made up of but sweeping statements like "1000 miles just isnt healthy for a junior athlete" are wide of the mark IMO.
Agreed. In an average month it's 50km/day. Or 2 hrs / day riding slow. Do an hour in the morning and an hour after school and it looks very doable. Pretty sure junior swimmers do more than an hour in the morning.
 
Dear Wiggo said:
Agreed. In an average month it's 50km/day. Or 2 hrs / day riding slow. Do an hour in the morning and an hour after school and it looks very doable. Pretty sure junior swimmers do more than an hour in the morning.
Is "riding slow" training for slow races? Are they doing those now?

Swimming is not cycling.

I could go on, but I think I'm flogging a dead horse.
 
alanshearer said:
I know a few of the juniors on both teams, as well as their parents. They don't fit the stereotypes that are being thrown about here..
It's definitely true generalizations don't work and could cause some distress for some honest kids because of some dramatic adults and their anti-doping nonsense. (me included)

The OP is talking about some junior(s) repping and, apparently using a supplement of uncertain kind, then distributing it to other juniors. That is/was apparently real. If the forum follows your opinion and we can't discuss it, and yet no one in their right mind wants it going on at the Junior level.

That's a pretty tight bind. What do you suggest?
 
Sep 29, 2012
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DirtyWorks said:
Is "riding slow" training for slow races? Are they doing those now?

Swimming is not cycling.

I could go on, but I think I'm flogging a dead horse.
Riding slow is what you get when you divide 50km by 2hrs = 25km/hr. It's not hard or strenuous. I am not sure why you are taking this tone with my post either. Periodisation says you don't ride hard all the time or you end up being average, so no, you would not expect people to ride hard or intense all the time. In fact it's closer to 80/20 endurance / intensity.

And why suggest cycling is not swimming? The fact remains, time in training at any age can be detrimental and lead to injury, etc. If a kid rides his bike 2 hours a day are you saying that's worse than the same aged kid doing 3 hours of swimming training? Coz I can assure you the swimming training is at least as strenuous if not more than the cycling.

This is not detracting from the distastefulness of the "supplements" spruiking argument posited in this thread, just the fact that 1000 miles (1600km for me) is not that much of a stretch for someone who is at home and basically dresses themselves and wipes their own bum but for the most part has everything else done for them (cooking, cleaning, being driven to races, etc, etc).
 
Jun 19, 2009
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alanshearer said:
I think the insinuations being thrown about in this thread cross the line. It's one thing to spread rumors about a pro, or even an adult. It's quite another to do the same about specific juniors or junior teams without any evidence or based solely upon some guilt by association. (And yes, by mentioning and linking to a specific junior team, were discussing the individual juniors on that team.)

I know a few of the juniors on both teams, as well as their parents. They don't fit the stereotypes that are being thrown about here.

None of this is to say that doping among juniors is not a problem or that is not something that should not be discussed. Nor should the appropriateness of juniors being sponsored by a supplement company be off limits. Likewise for junior "super" teams, USA Cycling's develpment program, etc.

I'm just saying we should be careful about insinuating that easily identifiable juniors are doing this or that.
I would agree about blanket insuations about the riders.
As I've noted in the past there were plenty of preceding junior riders that avoided the influence of USAC past; some were stronger/better than the alumni now known as the conspicuously doped generation. There is an overwhelming common denominator from that period: most clean riders quit the sport because of the equally overwhelming common denominator of doped competitors.
The remaining common denominator is the major risk factor: the same management structure is intact. Hopefully the junior riders and their parents are reading this and understand there prospects might better lie elsewhere.
 
socalroadie said:
these supplements can lead to doping especially because parents and usac do not do anything about it. The point is, if juniors cannot even control their supplemental intake their exposure to banned substances would be greater. If they believe supplements create that much an advantage surely they will look for new "supplements."
who says they actually believe in the **** they're peddling? They believe in blingy kits and a team bus and a Hollywood image. They believe in positive reinforcement from old men with checkbooks and cat 1 licenses. The posts I've seen betray a total disinterest in the products, with no copy more inventive or convincing than "Hemo SERGE is the best!" We know they're doing it because it's part and parcel of being on the team. You make it sound like supplements are literally being forced down their throats. I don't think anyone, even team management, gives a rat's *** if they actually use the products.

If you care about their well-being, reach out to them directly, don't try to stir up accusations and rumor on a web forum that's powerless to do anything.
 
Mar 26, 2010
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DirtyWorks said:
It's definitely true generalizations don't work and could cause some distress for some honest kids because of some dramatic adults and their anti-doping nonsense. (me included)

The OP is talking about some junior(s) repping and, apparently using a supplement of uncertain kind, then distributing it to other juniors. That is/was apparently real. If the forum follows your opinion and we can't discuss it, and yet no one in their right mind wants it going on at the Junior level.

That's a pretty tight bind. What do you suggest?
Maybe you should re-read my post paying specific attention to where I said, "None of this is to say that doping among juniors is not a problem or that is not something that should not be discussed. Nor should the appropriateness of juniors being sponsored by a supplement company be off limits. Likewise for junior "super" teams, USA Cycling's develpment program, etc."

The OP didn't specifically mention the team name. Other posts did, as well as mentioned another team. Then there's the posts to the effect that mommy and daddy know what's going on, insinuating that at least some of those riders are either doping or on the verge of doing so. That's what crossed the line.
 
Aug 10, 2010
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proffate said:
who says they actually believe in the **** they're peddling? They believe in blingy kits and a team bus and a Hollywood image. They believe in positive reinforcement from old men with checkbooks and cat 1 licenses. The posts I've seen betray a total disinterest in the products, with no copy more inventive or convincing than "Hemo SERGE is the best!" We know they're doing it because it's part and parcel of being on the team. You make it sound like supplements are literally being forced down their throats. I don't think anyone, even team management, gives a rat's *** if they actually use the products.

If you care about their well-being, reach out to them directly, don't try to stir up accusations and rumor on a web forum that's powerless to do anything.
Interesting post. Advocating keeping it quiet. . . . I understand where you're coming from.

Sincerely, Monsignor X.
 
Dec 27, 2010
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DirtyWorks said:
Yes, the generalization was too sweeping. So, let's narrow it down. My point was, if they are doing race intensity 45min-1 hour 3-4 times a week plus long rides that aren't board-flat totalling a 1000 mile month for a Junior is too much.

How many hours was your 1000 mile month? How much intensity? How old were you? How many months in a row did you sustain 1000 miles? Please be specific.

Dave's post above mine is exactly right and fits pretty well with my point. What's a little doping when no one is enforcing the rules of the sport?
If you want specifics I will dig out my old training diaries later.
 
Oct 14, 2012
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I wouldn't point at juniors doing 1000 miles per month as dopers - here's a possible scenario in a month:

4 x 80 mile weekend rides = 240
4 x 40 mile pace weekend rides = 160
16 x 25 mile weekday rides = 400
1 x stage race/century = 120
Total = 920

My worry for a 16 year old doing that kind of training is possible burn-out and failing academic work and NOT necessarily the potential use of PEDs. I applaud any kid who has that commitment, though, and there are kids on both teams who are phenomenal talents.

BUT...

There is still the fundamental question of who is running these teams (and why)? Let's not forget that the Specialized team is an off-shoot of the Masters team which was once called USPS/Montgomery Masters and is STILL a plaything of Weisel. That is the problem here - not the kids themselves, but the teams, the coaches and the parents who possibly do not know the history of these people still involved in our sport. I pity any kid who is being channeled into the peleton by Weisel, USAC "development", and the UCI. I wish there was a better way for US talent to be looked after.
 
TrackCynic said:
My worry for a 16 year old doing that kind of training is possible burn-out and failing academic work
This is what I was trying to get across but, I didn't think it through enough when posting.

TrackCynic said:
There is still the fundamental question of who is running these teams (and why)? Let's not forget that the Specialized team is an off-shoot of the Masters team which was once called USPS/Montgomery Masters and is STILL a plaything of Weisel. That is the problem here - not the kids themselves, but the teams, the coaches
This is the other part that IMHO is the setup for doping to be okay.

TrackCynic said:
and the parents who possibly do not know the history of these people still involved in our sport.
This is a very serious problem, not exclusive to cycling though. This is where parenting can go off the rails when a "successful" coach isn't really developing adults who ride/perform well, but develop racehorses more or less.

The number of casual riders with Carmichael Training paraphenalia is not the worst, but symbolic at a broader, more casual level of riding.

TrackCynic said:
I pity any kid who is being channeled into the peleton by Weisel, USAC "development", and the UCI. I wish there was a better way for US talent to be looked after.
+1000
 
Apr 1, 2013
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proffate said:
If you care about their well-being, reach out to them directly, don't try to stir up accusations and rumor on a web forum that's powerless to do anything.
They have been reached out to. They defend the use of their products and obviously, home schooling will allow for 1000 mile months so parents do not see the issue.

TrackCynic said:
I wouldn't point at juniors doing 1000 miles per month as dopers - here's a possible scenario in a month:

4 x 80 mile weekend rides = 240
4 x 40 mile pace weekend rides = 160
16 x 25 mile weekday rides = 400
1 x stage race/century = 120
Total = 920

My worry for a 16 year old doing that kind of training is possible burn-out and failing academic work and NOT necessarily the potential use of PEDs. I applaud any kid who has that commitment, though, and there are kids on both teams who are phenomenal talents.

BUT...

There is still the fundamental question of who is running these teams (and why)? Let's not forget that the Specialized team is an off-shoot of the Masters team which was once called USPS/Montgomery Masters and is STILL a plaything of Weisel. That is the problem here - not the kids themselves, but the teams, the coaches and the parents who possibly do not know the history of these people still involved in our sport. I pity any kid who is being channeled into the peleton by Weisel, USAC "development", and the UCI. I wish there was a better way for US talent to be looked after.
Off course, the amount is do able but the way it's done is questionable. I totally agree with you that there are talents out there but its unfortunate that some are on shady teams.
 
socalroadie said:
They have been reached out to. They defend the use of their products
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Aug 20, 2013
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A little bragging and little defending

socalroadie said:
...Juniors are interesting since at amateur level barely anyone is tested yet their performances are off the charts. Sure hard work is there..but anything else?
There were no charts. Its hard to compare Jrs that started age little to adults. In the 80s when I raced there were no 9-18 year olds (groups of them) riding.

My kid and other kids are children of cyclists. My kid has been licensed racers since bio age of 8. There is nothing amazing about a teenager with 7-10 years of growing and body adapting, and natural testosterone - all while cycling - performance being off the charts. Juniors are making the charts now.

I'm not a big fan of the anti-doping effort in cycling, esp. in Jrs. in that it is not controlled, these are minors and it would be so easy to cheat. Need to cheat to win? A lie about age works well. Until 17 no proof of age is required. I tend to think the PEDs are not an issue in Jrs. And I do think lots of "else" is there. Just not necessarily PEDs.
 
May 25, 2011
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This worries me:
From the product label of MRI EO2 VMAX:
WARNING FOR CALIFORNIA RESIDENTS ONLY: This product
contains chemicals known to the State of California to cause
cancer and birth defects or other reproductive harm. Prop 65 is
known as the formally titled "The Safe Drinking Water and Toxic
Enforcement Act of 1986". For additional information regarding
this Proposition please log onto oehha.ca.gov/prop65/p65faq.html
or to mri-performance.COM
 
Apr 14, 2010
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Zorotheslacker said:
There were no charts. Its hard to compare Jrs that started age little to adults. In the 80s when I raced there were no 9-18 year olds (groups of them) riding.

My kid and other kids are children of cyclists. My kid has been licensed racers since bio age of 8. There is nothing amazing about a teenager with 7-10 years of growing and body adapting, and natural testosterone all while cycling performance being off the charts. Juniors are making the charts now.

I'm not a big fan of the anti-doping effort in cycling, esp. in Jrs. in that it is not controlled, these are minors and it would be so easy to cheat. Need to cheat to win? A lie about age works well. Until 17 no proof of age is required. I tend to think the PEDs are not an issue in Jrs. And I do think lots of "else" is there. Just not necessarily PEDs.
Good point. There has never been junior cyclist before now. What with cycling never having been popular anywhere in the world until post Lance and all.
 
Aug 20, 2013
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therhodeo said:
Good point. There has never been junior cyclist before now. What with cycling never having been popular anywhere in the world until post Lance and all.
Don't know if you are kidding or not, but when I wanted my kid's power compared to a DB of some 2,000 riders power - there was no data his age. When I wanted his VO2 max compared - there was no data his age.
 
Apr 14, 2010
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Zorotheslacker said:
Don't know if you are kidding or not, but when I wanted my kid's power compared to a DB of some 2,000 riders power - there was no data his age. When I wanted his VO2 max compared - there was no data his age.
You don't have another kid who plays HS football in Texas do you?
 
Aug 20, 2013
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Ruby60 said:
This worries me:
From the product label of MRI EO2 VMAX:
WARNING FOR CALIFORNIA RESIDENTS ONLY: This product
contains chemicals known to the State of California to cause
cancer and birth defects or other reproductive harm. Prop 65 is
known as the formally titled "The Safe Drinking Water and Toxic
Enforcement Act of 1986". For additional information regarding
this Proposition please log onto oehha.ca.gov/prop65/p65faq.html
or to mri-performance.COM
How do we know what a kid is taking or not? I do not think all MRI kids take all MRI products.

I struggle to think what you would give a teen - say 15-16 to make them better. Testosterone? It drips off of them right now anyway. EPO - maybe, but for what races? HGH - weight is an issue. Caffeine - 50mg seems good. The stuff that is illegal for adults may not help kids at all.

All the parents know each other. The biggest changes I see year to year come from growth and training and natural development. some kids are getting too big and others are not growing enough. I just don't see these supplements as an issue. Maybe training time vs. school. That is an issue.
 
Aug 20, 2013
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therhodeo said:
You don't have another kid who plays HS football in Texas do you?
No - daughter that played soccer in college - I am in withdrawal as she is not playing this year. In cycling "we" compete against the MRI and Specialized (and Slipstream at Nationals) Jrs. I don't think they are "cheating". I'm not naïve - no way to know, but I don't think so (and as I posted - with what?). I know USA adults are seeing a batch of really good kids and often frustrated how a 52X14 is beating them in sprints - but that is a good thing for USA Cycling.
 
Aug 20, 2013
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Ruby60 said:
This worries me:
From the product label of MRI EO2 VMAX:
WARNING FOR CALIFORNIA RESIDENTS ONLY: This product
contains chemicals known to the State of California to cause
cancer and birth defects or other reproductive harm. Prop 65 is
known as the formally titled "The Safe Drinking Water and Toxic
Enforcement Act of 1986". For additional information regarding
this Proposition please log onto oehha.ca.gov/prop65/p65faq.html
or to mri-performance.COM
Good new is if you don't live in CA. It is safe!
 
Aug 20, 2013
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alanshearer said:
None of this is to say that doping among juniors is not a problem
Does anyone have one single example of it happening/being done?

My little world - it has never happened - once - not - does not happen.

Why the thread?

I don't like these Jr teams so much either, but cycling is a team sport. so joining is the natural direction. Doping - accusations I believe come from those that can't keep up.
 

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