• The Cycling News forum is looking to add some volunteer moderators with Red Rick's recent retirement. If you're interested in helping keep our discussions on track, send a direct message to @SHaines here on the forum, or use the Contact Us form to message the Community Team.

    In the meanwhile, please use the Report option if you see a post that doesn't fit within the forum rules.

    Thanks!

Juniors and Doping...

Mar 18, 2009
1,844
1
0
Visit site
This thread is for serious discussion on the prevalence of doping of any kind in the junior ranks...both in Europe, America, and elsewhere. Does anyone here have knowledge, or experience as a junior, or working with juniors about when these guys/gals start taking PEDs? I am hoping to hear that the trend is for junior riders to be using less, but I don't know. Any thoughts? Is this where all the problems are starting in the first place, hence a good place to start eliminating the problem?
 
Mar 20, 2009
63
0
0
Visit site
My friend's nephew went to France for the summer to race on a french team. Got some OK results actually. Shared an apartment with two young Russians who were visited by a "pro" (my guy didn't know him so that may or may not have been true) a few times. They all disappeared into a bedroom and locked the door; the Russians refused to tell him what it was about. Could have been anything, but he came back pretty disillusioned.
 
Jun 20, 2009
48
0
0
Visit site
I am currently a junior in Australia. I do not believe that there is currently any doping in Australian racing. There are some very talented and fit athletes performing in the junior ranks with some dominating performances however i am most certain none are taking any illegal products.
 
Mar 18, 2009
1,844
1
0
Visit site
gogo419 said:
I am currently a junior in Australia. I do not believe that there is currently any doping in Australian racing. There are some very talented and fit athletes performing in the junior ranks with some dominating performances however i am most certain none are taking any illegal products.

That is great to hear!!! And I wish you all the best in your endeavors!! Good luck and thanks for the positive news.
 
Mar 18, 2009
1,844
1
0
Visit site
keen_but_slow said:
My friend's nephew went to France for the summer to race on a french team. Got some OK results actually. Shared an apartment with two young Russians who were visited by a "pro" (my guy didn't know him so that may or may not have been true) a few times. They all disappeared into a bedroom and locked the door; the Russians refused to tell him what it was about. Could have been anything, but he came back pretty disillusioned.

That is pretty discouraging for a young rider!! It is also nice to note that you said he got some OK results!! Good for him.

I am a very strong believer that one of the major ways to reduce the use of PEDs is to attack it at the junior levels...if this is indeed where the issue starts. I would love for Beroepsrenner to give his thoughts coming up through the ranks...

How can we (the cycling community) work through this problem?

What do we think about a talent like Phinney? I personally don't think he is doped...but just a huge natural talent. He started dominating as soon as he started racing seriously...but I could be wrong.
 
Mar 13, 2009
16,854
1
0
Visit site
TRDean said:
That is pretty discouraging for a young rider!! It is also nice to note that you said he got some OK results!! Good for him.

I am a very strong believer that one of the major ways to reduce the use of PEDs is to attack it at the junior levels...if this is indeed where the issue starts. I would love for Beroepsrenner to give his thoughts coming up through the ranks...

How can we (the cycling community) work through this problem?

What do we think about a talent like Phinney? I personally don't think he is doped...but just a huge natural talent. He started dominating as soon as he started racing seriously...but I could be wrong.
Ben King was better than Phinney actually, was
 
I believe there were a few juniors who sued the USCF over being injected with drugs without their consent. One is a doctor now, but I can't remember the name(s).

I believe doping in Junior is relatively rare, even the countries that have huge doping problems like Spain and Italy discourage it....you don't want a kid to already be on dope when you sign him, then realize he won't improve much or at all.
 
Mar 10, 2009
22
0
0
Visit site
I think the Italians are no stranger to some junior doping. I remeber during the Mapei years an Italian Junior was caught with a load of gear stashed under the saddle of his scooter. Mapei promptly signed him and "looked after him" :rolleyes:
 
Mar 18, 2009
1,844
1
0
Visit site
blackcat said:
Ben King was better than Phinney actually, was

I am a huge Ben King fan and supporter..but when Phinney came onto the scene when was King better?

Also, I am pretty sure King is clean...great family and support system. He was also a very accomplished runner before cycling. Don't ask for proof..just my hunch.
 
Jul 14, 2009
2,498
0
0
Visit site
This getting sloppy,Phinney,King and now some guy in AU that says there is no doping.I believe him.Like a good fisherman lets throw these little ones back and catch them when they are bigger. To insert kids names on these posts could make them come up on a google search for dopers,it is at the very least dumb.None of the kids mentioned here are on the juice,lets only slam and smear adults. A guessing game as to which rising star is rising too fast is best handled by family's and coaches not by blogsters with bloody fingers.Take the jade away from the kids.
 
Mar 13, 2009
16,854
1
0
Visit site
TRDean said:
I am a huge Ben King fan and supporter..but when Phinney came onto the scene when was King better?

Also, I am pretty sure King is clean...great family and support system. He was also a very accomplished runner before cycling. Don't ask for proof..just my hunch.
Well, everyone said Phinney won it all. Wrong, Ben King was tt and rr champ, in USA in 2007.

Now, the line on Phinney being a newbie to the sport, has to be hogwash, he was riding his parents cycle tours in Italy, since he was a child, that is one great base, dare say he had ridden many more miles, and even more quality miles, than King, so even tho Phinney is circa 15 months younger, he was perhaps ahead of him, in physical and cycling development. Height, weight, definitely mature. So King was not ahead of him because he had more experience.

Also a young Kiwi kid beat Phinney in the l'Abitibi chrono. Tom David. Same age.

I never said King or Phinney were or were not clean. They ought to have the benifit of doubt, but there is no suspicion. I just wish Phinney would not twitter about being drug tested, nor be in rapture about Armstrong's material accoutrements. I mean, a "dopers' suck" cap, is like a wink and nod, and taking the pi$s out of everyone, whilst being beholden to Armstrong. Take the public for fools at your own risk. Phenomenal talent tho, whatever the case.
 
Mar 18, 2009
1,844
1
0
Visit site
fatandfast said:
This getting sloppy,Phinney,King and now some guy in AU that says there is no doping.I believe him.Like a good fisherman lets throw these little ones back and catch them when they are bigger. To insert kids names on these posts could make them come up on a google search for dopers,it is at the very least dumb.None of the kids mentioned here are on the juice,lets only slam and smear adults. A guessing game as to which rising star is rising too fast is best handled by family's and coaches not by blogsters with bloody fingers.Take the jade away from the kids.

Bag off...not one person here has said any of these riders dope...just the opposite. If you don't have anything to add to this then don't but don't criticize the thread. This is here to come up with a possible avenue of attack to combat doping.

And if you think that this is the first place that doping and Phinney have come up you would be wrong...so once again sod off.
 
Mar 13, 2009
16,854
1
0
Visit site
TRDean said:
Bag off...not one person here has said any of these riders dope...just the opposite. If you don't have anything to add to this then don't but don't criticize the thread. This is here to come up with a possible avenue of attack to combat doping.

And if you think that this is the first place that doping and Phinney have come up you would be wrong...so once again sod off.
Phinney should realise however, his association for Armstrong will bring the doubters. Bad choice to hitch your ride to Armstrong if you intend to ride clean. Because appearances do count, when you wish to promote a clean racing agenda.
 
Mar 18, 2009
1,844
1
0
Visit site
blackcat said:
Well, everyone said Phinney won it all. Wrong, Ben King was tt and rr champ, in USA in 2007.

Now, the line on Phinney being a newbie to the sport, has to be hogwash, he was riding his parents cycle tours in Italy, since he was a child, that is one great base, dare say he had ridden many more miles, and even more quality miles, than King, so even tho Phinney is circa 15 months younger, he was perhaps ahead of him, in physical and cycling development. Height, weight, definitely mature. So King was not ahead of him because he had more experience.

Also a young Kiwi kid beat Phinney in the l'Abitibi chrono. Tom David. Same age.

I never said King or Phinney were or were not clean. They ought to have the benifit of doubt, but there is no suspicion. I just wish Phinney would not twitter about being drug tested, nor be in rapture about Armstrong's material accoutrements. I mean, a "dopers' suck" cap, is like a wink and nod, and taking the **** out of everyone, whilst being beholden to Armstrong. Take the public for fools are your own risk. Phenomenal talent tho, whatever the case.

True and I do agree...but he is 19 (just) and I can see the materialism in a young man. I can't fault him for that. Regarding the riding base...yes he spent much time riding in Italy with his parents...obviously a big help...also, he does seem very mature beyond his years...even when he was younger. Anyway, I don't think he does anything illegal...I just think he wants to look good for Mr. Armstrong.

By the way, great ride by King at the U23 Nats!!! If he could sprint he may have won...but I do think he was the stronges on that day!!!
 
Mar 13, 2009
16,854
1
0
Visit site
fatandfast said:
This getting sloppy,Phinney,King and now some guy in AU that says there is no doping.I believe him.Like a good fisherman lets throw these little ones back and catch them when they are bigger. To insert kids names on these posts could make them come up on a google search for dopers,it is at the very least dumb.None of the kids mentioned here are on the juice,lets only slam and smear adults. A guessing game as to which rising star is rising too fast is best handled by family's and coaches not by blogsters with bloody fingers.Take the jade away from the kids.
you are an idiot.

King is 20, Phinney is 19 and a world champ. They are part of the narrative. This is not an allegation of them doping, just their names were raised about being phenomenally talented juniors, NOT phenomenally talented doped juniors. Get off the high horse, and take a deep breath.
 
Jul 14, 2009
2,498
0
0
Visit site
TRD unzip so you can see.The thread has JR and DOPE in the title Einstein.If you want to discuss race result,godspeed to you this thread is about dope.Isn't it time for summer school?
 
Mar 18, 2009
1,844
1
0
Visit site
fatandfast said:
TRD unzip so you can see.The thread has JR and DOPE in the title Einstein.If you want to discuss race result,godspeed to you this thread is about dope.Isn't it time for summer school?

Pull your head out of your baloon knot cheese wick!! Read the original post..this is supposed to be a positive thought provoking thread...here you are acting like a baboon. If you have nothing to add then keep your head where it is and suffocate.

This is an important topic..one that needs to be discussed...if you don't think juniors are doping then say so...never mind just shut up.
 
Mar 13, 2009
16,854
1
0
Visit site
I know they are doping. I know a Spaniard who was second in the Vuelta, started when he was 16. Then there were the current crop of Spanish juniors, who have had elevated crits in the last few years.

Then in 2007, there were 3 Italians who rode off the front and won the worlds juniors, lol. They let the guy who has gone to Lampre for next year, win, because it was the second year in a row, and no one had won the jnr rr twice in a row.

So, they start early. I also have a suspicion over a former WR holder.

If the Euros dope in the jnrs, you can sure as hell bet, the anglophones can dope up a storm too. Not like BB would attest tho. But, did Carmichael dope jnrs or espoirs with extract of cortisone. <shakes head>.
 
Jul 14, 2009
2,498
0
0
Visit site
The word has two L's.You forgot leather Cheerio.Yes you are both right Taylor and Ben are both great riders.They should not be mentioned in a thread about doping.You couple of lazy glory holes should type about what you know to be true.No narrative is needed.The whole section of the site is dedicated to the drug problem in cycling,not JR nat results.What is your screen name in prison pen pal section,I am sure gobble or swallow is in there.
 
Mar 18, 2009
1,844
1
0
Visit site
fatandfast said:
The word has two L's.You forgot leather Cheerio.Yes you are both right Taylor and Ben are both great riders.They should not be mentioned in a thread about doping.You couple of lazy glory holes should type about what you know to be true.No narrative is needed.The whole section of the site is dedicated to the drug problem in cycling,not JR nat results.What is your screen name in prison pen pal section,I am sure gobble or swallow is in there.

As I said before, if you have nothing to add...STFU!!
 
Apr 1, 2009
1,488
0
0
Visit site
In SE Europe doping is present at all age groups. I know people who raced pro for Italian and Spanish teams, where there was a policy of don't ask, don't tell regarding doping. National teams over the past 20 years or so always had a medical program in place.
Even though I have been involved in the sport at a racing level for only 5-6 years, I have witnessed, on numerous occasions, just how much doping there is in the sport. And we're talking 40+ age group here!

My eldest son is 16 and races against boys his age, of whom two are known to be dopers. It is their parents who provide them the drugs. One of the boys is a son of one of my former colleagues. I confronted the guy and asked him if it was true, and he said that it is really not a big deal, because he does everything with the help of a physician.
Also, a friend of mine has a son who is national champion at the under 19 level, and they were approached by one of the coaches from a professional team from Slovenia whose offer was for the boy to go to a training camp. The offer was free food, lodging, equipment, medical program + possibility of a 3-year contract with the team if he shines.
Medical program was the term the guy used, and when this friend of mine asked him if he meant doping products, the guy said: "Of course not, just stuff that will make him stronger and go faster", never breaking eye contact.
Make of it what you will.
 
Mar 18, 2009
1,844
1
0
Visit site
Zoncolan said:
In SE Europe doping is present at all age groups. I know people who raced pro for Italian and Spanish teams, where there was a policy of don't ask, don't tell regarding doping. National teams over the past 20 years or so always had a medical program in place.
Even though I have been involved in the sport at a racing level for only 5-6 years, I have witnessed, on numerous occasions, just how much doping there is in the sport. And we're talking 40+ age group here!

My eldest son is 16 and races against boys his age, of whom two are known to be dopers. It is their parents who provide them the drugs. One of the boys is a son of one of my former colleagues. I confronted the guy and asked him if it was true, and he said that it is really not a big deal, because he does everything with the help of a physician.
Also, a friend of mine has a son who is national champion at the under 19 level, and they were approached by one of the coaches from a professional team from Slovenia whose offer was for the boy to go to a training camp. The offer was free food, lodging, equipment, medical program + possibility of a 3-year contract with the team if he shines.
Medical program was the term the guy used, and when this friend of mine asked him if he meant doping products, the guy said: "Of course not, just stuff that will make him stronger and go faster", never breaking eye contact.
Make of it what you will.

That is really discouraging!! My hope is that the parents would be more proactive in protecting their kids from this type of thing...guess not. If it is imprinted on kids like that (with the consent of their parents) then it looks like there is little hope. I appreciate your input.
 
Mar 13, 2009
16,854
1
0
Visit site
Ricco and L'Hotellerie were known chargers with reps from the juniors. If anyone in the anglophone "we dont dope" nations, who charges, will soon be clear to their contemporaries. Even if they are names which are beyond suspicion, cos some idiot here, fatandfast says so.

If you read this thread, it only compliments young riders. No suspicions tendered. However, this is the sport, this is the culture. And they will not need keyboard cowboys to tell them what the sport holds in store for them.
 
Apr 1, 2009
1,488
0
0
Visit site
TRDean said:
That is really discouraging!! My hope is that the parents would be more proactive in protecting their kids from this type of thing...guess not. If it is imprinted on kids like that (with the consent of their parents) then it looks like there is little hope. I appreciate your input.

There are parents who want their kids to succeed at something so bad, they will stop at nothing to achieve their goals. Even if it means risking their kids health.:mad:
My kid is good, he has a mean sprint on him, just like his old man :)(I'm no good at climbing standing at 1,89m and 90kg).
He is pretty mature for his age and realizes what he's good at and what not. He knows he will never be able to climb with the best and he's OK with that.
The problem is, in my mind, that some of the parents aren't OK with that, and that's when the kids might get hurt.
God forbid that we should have more cases, like we did in the early 90's, of young boys dying in their sleep, because they were on EPO. Were some of them being driven by their parents to be more successful?
 
Jun 21, 2009
847
0
0
Visit site
keen_but_slow said:
My friend's nephew went to France for the summer to race on a french team. Got some OK results actually. Shared an apartment with two young Russians who were visited by a "pro" (my guy didn't know him so that may or may not have been true) a few times. They all disappeared into a bedroom and locked the door; the Russians refused to tell him what it was about. Could have been anything, but he came back pretty disillusioned.

when someone says "pro" like that (with the "") i think of quite a different kind of professional than someone who rides a bike :eek: no wonder the russians wouldn't tell anyone what was going on :eek: