Juniors and Doping...

[Hooptie]

Not sure what's wrong w/ Twittering about being tested, I guess anything Lance does should be hated, but I assure you Lance and Taylor are not the only guys tweeting about a **** test...half of Boulder does it.

Jr's in the US have 3 options...Garmin/Slipstream, Livestrong or Europe...heading to Europe alone is clearly the worst option from a doping perspective. I'm sure Phinney got an offer he couldn't refuse to ride for Livestrong, so it's hard to blame the kid.

Wearing a dopers suck hat (in a Wold Champions jersey) is a sign of change. It's always boggled my mind that pro's are not more outspoken about doping, especially if they are clean. So prop's to Phinney!

http://otbphoto.smugmug.com/gallery/8505547_Bavry#559798110_c5St4-L-LB

 

[blackcat]

Not sure what's wrong w/ Twittering about being tested, I guess anything Lance does should be hated, but I assure you Lance and Taylor are not the only guys tweeting about a **** test...half of Boulder does it.

Jr's in the US have 3 options...Garmin/Slipstream, Livestrong or Europe...heading to Europe alone is clearly the worst option from a doping perspective. I'm sure Phinney got an offer he couldn't refuse to ride for Livestrong, so it's hard to blame the kid.

Wearing a dopers suck hat (in a Wold Champions jersey) is a sign of change. It's always boggled my mind that pro's are not more outspoken about doping, especially if they are clean. So prop's to Phinney!

http://otbphoto.smugmug.com/gallery/8505547_Bavry#559798110_c5St4-L-LB

actions speak louder than words on caps.

attaching oneself to Armstrong > "dopers suck" soundbite

tweeting about dope tests in Armstrong's footsteps is somewhat uncouth. It is a protest talking point. Why do it. Armstrong's message is clear. He is trying to prove a negative. If one is clean, my advice would be, suck it up, do the testing, do not appeal, and do not make it unique. Tests have been round for 40 years. You are not special. Your talent is indeed special, so do not follow Armstrong's PR strategy, because that is misguided.

 

[labratty]

So there is no more injecting of 'vitamins' in the dorm rooms at the Aussie Institute of Sport then? Good to hear.

 

[BigBoat]

I actually thought Phinney might have been clean for his 4K rides in the junior ranks. But now I hear otherwise.

Son of the twice busted Eddie, Axel helps manage Phinney's team. Did you know Axel worked with Dr. Ferrari!? Also, "Lance" runs it... And is shown to basically be Phinney's best friend. It wouldnt take much for "Lance" to say to Phinney's parents, "Ve have veys to make you BIG MONEY!!"

Lemond will not touch this with a 10-foot pole and that makes me wonder... if Phinney is already doped now he will never ever finish top 10 in the Tour de France unless ultra-jacked. I thought Phinney could still be clean. Do I think he is? My gut tells me Probably not.

 

[Turd Ferguson]

I have no proof and this is only speculation but racing in the junior ranks in the mid to late 90's in the US, one kid came out of nowhere...skin and bones and no muscle and started dominating. A few years earlier, his brother has done the same thing, although this kid actually had some muscles, and eventually went on to have some success in the espoirs ranks before heading downhill with some health problems. One parent was a doctor, the other was a physical therapist. Both no longer race.

Like I said, speculation only. I raced for fun, personal challenge, and to meet nice down to earth people, so winning wasn't everything to me. I also knew I wasn't pro material as I wasn't showing big improvements year to year on a consistent training program. I won some and I lost some and had fun doing it.

Also, there was a team that was turning non performers to regional contenders. Their coach had been pack fodder one year, and the next year his body was bigger, leaner, stronger, and he was always at the front. After his body transformation, he was turning out juniors that everyone was scared to race against.

Who knows really, but I just figured I would give my two cents.

 

[Skip Madness]

Geneviève Jeanson was 16 when she started using EPO under the encouragement of her trainer. I think her father also knew about it.

Sadly, people in positions of influence over young riders - people who should be role models - are sometimes quite capable of abusing their duties. I'm guessing the scale of PED use among juniors is probably pretty depressing, although surely cleaner than the pro ranks.

 

[Turd Ferguson]

I have no proof and this is only speculation but racing in the junior ranks in the mid to late 90's in the US, one kid came out of nowhere...skin and bones and no muscle and started dominating. A few years earlier, his brother has done the same thing, although this kid actually had some muscles, and eventually went on to have some success in the espoirs ranks before heading downhill with some health problems. One parent was a doctor, the other was a physical therapist. Both no longer race.

Like I said, speculation only. I raced for fun, personal challenge, and to meet nice down to earth people, so winning wasn't everything to me. I also knew I wasn't pro material as I wasn't showing big improvements year to year on a consistent training program. I won some and I lost some and had fun doing it.

Also, there was a team that was turning non performers to regional contenders. Their coach had been pack fodder one year, and the next year his body was bigger, leaner, stronger, and he was always at the front. After his body transformation, he was turning out juniors that everyone was scared to race against.

Who knows really, but I just figured I would give my two cents.

Yes, I am quoting myself....I just did a search of the two brothers I mentioned above, and I was correct. The eldest retired young for medical problems, and the youngest, who I raced against is now a current pro racer with a contract. The younger guy won some pretty hard and big races as a youngster against experienced pros, but hasn't had results in a long time.

 

[the truth.]

We must protect the next generation

 

[kreuzberg]

I actually thought Phinney might have been clean for his 4K rides in the junior ranks. But now I hear otherwise.

Son of the twice busted Eddie, Axel helps manage Phinney's team. Did you know Axel worked with Dr. Ferrari!? Also, "Lance" runs it... And is shown to basically be Phinney's best friend. It wouldnt take much for "Lance" to say to Phinney's parents, "Ve have veys to make you BIG MONEY!!"

Lemond will not touch this with a 10-foot pole and that makes me wonder... if Phinney is already doped now he will never ever finish top 10 in the Tour de France unless ultra-jacked. I thought Phinney could still be clean. Do I think he is? My gut tells me Probably not.

Thats so bitter. Maybe some people ARE that good. Isn't it exciting to see them succeed? When Phinney wins the worlds, don't you feel inspired?

I know of a certain junior racer who has been kicking a$$ for a few years and some people say that this person dopes. Yet I don't believe it. Because often these accusations are fueled, in part, by jealousy. If someone does an amazing ride, it discredits them to not believe in it because it seems impossible. Maybe I am wrong about this junior, and then everyone can say 'I told you so' but it isn't my loss if that turns out to be the case. I would rather risk being wrong, because this way I am still able to see what makes cycling so great.

 

[blackcat]

I actually thought Phinney might have been clean for his 4K rides in the junior ranks. But now I hear otherwise.

Son of the twice busted Eddie, Axel helps manage Phinney's team. Did you know Axel worked with Dr. Ferrari!? Also, "Lance" runs it... And is shown to basically be Phinney's best friend. It wouldnt take much for "Lance" to say to Phinney's parents, "Ve have veys to make you BIG MONEY!!"

Lemond will not touch this with a 10-foot pole and that makes me wonder... if Phinney is already doped now he will never ever finish top 10 in the Tour de France unless ultra-jacked. I thought Phinney could still be clean. Do I think he is? My gut tells me Probably not.

listen, not about Phinney.

And I know clean riders on Saunier. Two. There was probably more. Guilt by association, in cycling, is no logical fallacy. My default leans to, all naturally dope, the clean is the exception, so there needs to be exceptionalism, to ride clean. And saying one dopes, I do not think, is impugning character. This is cycling for heaven's sake. Not a criminal court. There was one story, think in Scandanavia, one media organisation got a finding against it, taken by a plantiff for libel, think the damages were a token $1, as the judge said everyone knows cyclists dope (words to effect), so there is no major damage to reputation.

This thread, when do riders start to dope. Jnrs and espoirs. Otherwise, no pro contract, as no major wins. Phinney has had major wins, early, and I am not indicting him, on that, and that alone.

My concern on Phinney, is the contradiction. Can't "rock a dopers suck" cap, and then tweet about Armstrong's house, and getting dope tested. There is one huge conflict and cognitive dissonance. Optics are important. If he is this talented, he can progress a clean agenda, but it would take enormous integrity and strength of identity to rebuff Armstrong claims.

 

[VanceNichols]

I met a girl that raced bikes and went to high school with taylor phinney, when i mentioned how great taylor phinney was, she laughed and said i am an idiot if i think he is clean. broke my heart

 

[BroDeal]

Thats so bitter. Maybe some people ARE that good. Isn't it exciting to see them succeed? When Phinney wins the worlds, don't you feel inspired?

Why would we feel inspired. It is clear that in order to succeed at the high end of the sport in the age of EPO that drugs, transfusions, or both required. Why should anyone be inspired watching drug fueled performances? Should capitalists be inspired watching the success of Bernie Madoff?

Your accusations of jealousy ring hollw. I think you would find that most here are long past the age where someone else's success at riding a bike would give rise to jealousy. What is more, anyone who has ever raced bikes quickly became aware of their physical limitations relative to those who were more talented.

 

[fatandfast]

As I predicted Taylor and others are the subject if girls from high school saying they are juiced.Read it and understand that lazy is a way of life.Those who called me cheese are probably pleased.Taylor and his quest to be great will not be bumped by the humps that all want to question any achievement.The thread turned into a witch hunt.

 

[BroDeal]

As I predicted Taylor and others are the subject if girls from high school saying they are juiced.Read it and understand that lazy is a way of life.Those who called me cheese are probably pleased.Taylor and his quest to be great will not be bumped by the humps that all want to question any achievement.The thread turned into a witch hunt.

Can I get an English translation of this?

 

[hfer07]

As many opinions posted before, I do believe the junior category still holds a clean background-although the situation changes dramatically as soon as they star climbing the ladder to a more competitive level where they get more involved/related to the older ranks and their own intriguing ways to obtain results-I'm certain that is there where the doping begins to play its role....

 

[hfer07]

As I predicted Taylor and others are the subject if girls from high school saying they are juiced.Read it and understand that lazy is a way of life.Those who called me cheese are probably pleased.Taylor and his quest to be great will not be bumped by the humps that all want to question any achievement.The thread turned into a witch hunt.

come again?

 

[fatandfast]

Big boat and Vance both posted BS about some drug would be story.Should have been said long ago,Big Boat,blackcat,turd I could smoke you on a three speed in Levi's with a hangover.Any state,any day(4 weeks notice)20k tt your course and you find who can do a drug test on both of us. 3 labs A and B sample at all three.Find out how much it costs and hold the money in an account .I will race on a girl's bike with three to 8 speeds and start behind you at 30 seconds.I will wear long denim jeans and cycling shoes and a tshirt.You will race on any bike that meets road mass start event standards.I will start with a water bottle in hand,not to be replenished during the race.After the race the loser shall make a video apology to a list provided (no more than 10 names).The hangover shall be witnessed by others at the establishment of your choosing.I would think that no more than 3 beers and three shots should qualify as excess the night before the race.The prize money shall consist of air travel costs,bike transport,hotel(4 days),ground transport for rider and bike,bar and food bill during the stay of travel,and all return costs.West Coast price will be @5k East Coast 4k anywhere else get the price and my half will be banked 3-5 days latter after agreement.I am on lots of drugs like asprin and Chimay,and Coopers.1 sorry will be said(out loud) to all JR racers and their families that I can gather at the race course,I do not currently hold a US Cycling Lic. but I can get one in 4 or 5 biz days.I will race uninsured and unattached.I will race on paved or unpaved roads. Plain jerseys(tshirts ) will be worn by both of us.Most bike shops and racing clubs are fine to hold my money before and until the conclusion of our race.The club shall be in the race location city,agreed by both of us. You shall put a stickers on your helmet and bike that states"dopers suck" and another that states"Taylor was right" if I should be victorious.I can race you anywhere with enough lead time.(S.Australia,Bell's Beach area.J town) If you don't mind long travel I don't mind.AU for me Nov.14th.I will get you a free place to stay if so.If you want we can make it a triathalon drinking,racing,surfing.

 

[BroDeal]

Big boat and Vance both posted BS about some drug would be story.Should have been said long ago,Big Boat,blackcat,turd I could smoke you on a three speed in Levi's with a hangover.Any state,any day(4 weeks notice)20k tt your course and you find who can do a drug test on both of us. 3 labs A and B sample at all three.Find out how much it costs and hold the money in an account .I will race on a girl's bike with three to 8 speeds and start behind you at 30 seconds.I will wear long denim jeans and cycling shoes and a tshirt.You will race on any bike that meets road mass start event standards.I will start with a water bottle in hand,not to be replenished during the race.After the race the loser shall make a video apology to a list provided (no more than 10 names).The hangover shall be witnessed by others at the establishment of your choosing.I would think that no more than 3 beers and three shots should qualify as excess the night before the race.The prize money shall consist of air travel costs,bike transport,hotel(4 days),ground transport for rider and bike,bar and food bill during the stay of travel,and all return costs.West Coast price will be @5k East Coast 4k anywhere else get the price and my half will be banked 3-5 days latter after agreement.I am on lots of drugs like asprin and Chimay,and Coopers.1 sorry will be said(out loud) to all JR racers and their families that I can gather at the race course,I do not currently hold a US Cycling Lic. but I can get one in 4 or 5 biz days.I will race uninsured and unattached.I will race on paved or unpaved roads. Plain jerseys(tshirts ) will be worn by both of us.Most bike shops and racing clubs are fine to hold my money before and until the conclusion of our race.The club shall be in the race location city,agreed by both of us. You shall put a stickers on your helmet and bike that states"dopers suck" and another that states"Taylor was right" if I should be victorious.I can race you anywhere with enough lead time.(S.Australia,Bell's Beach area.J town) If you don't mind long travel I don't mind.AU for me Nov.14th.I will get you a free place to stay if so.If you want we can make it a triathalon drinking,racing,surfing.

Hey, look. Jackhammer is back. Next he will be asking for a dick measuring contest.

What is this? The middle ages, where God revealed truth in the outcome of a duel?

 

[VanceNichols]

I am not posting BS stories, I hope that taylor is clean. I am just relaying something that a girl that was an accomplished junior in the boulder area told me.

 

[VanceNichols]

Big boat and Vance both posted BS about some drug would be story.Should have been said long ago,Big Boat,blackcat,turd I could smoke you on a three speed in Levi's with a hangover.Any state,any day(4 weeks notice)20k tt your course and you find who can do a drug test on both of us. 3 labs A and B sample at all three.Find out how much it costs and hold the money in an account .I will race on a girl's bike with three to 8 speeds and start behind you at 30 seconds.I will wear long denim jeans and cycling shoes and a tshirt.You will race on any bike that meets road mass start event standards.I will start with a water bottle in hand,not to be replenished during the race.After the race the loser shall make a video apology to a list provided (no more than 10 names).The hangover shall be witnessed by others at the establishment of your choosing.I would think that no more than 3 beers and three shots should qualify as excess the night before the race.The prize money shall consist of air travel costs,bike transport,hotel(4 days),ground transport for rider and bike,bar and food bill during the stay of travel,and all return costs.West Coast price will be @5k East Coast 4k anywhere else get the price and my half will be banked 3-5 days latter after agreement.I am on lots of drugs like asprin and Chimay,and Coopers.1 sorry will be said(out loud) to all JR racers and their families that I can gather at the race course,I do not currently hold a US Cycling Lic. but I can get one in 4 or 5 biz days.I will race uninsured and unattached.I will race on paved or unpaved roads. Plain jerseys(tshirts ) will be worn by both of us.Most bike shops and racing clubs are fine to hold my money before and until the conclusion of our race.The club shall be in the race location city,agreed by both of us. You shall put a stickers on your helmet and bike that states"dopers suck" and another that states"Taylor was right" if I should be victorious.I can race you anywhere with enough lead time.(S.Australia,Bell's Beach area.J town) If you don't mind long travel I don't mind.AU for me Nov.14th.I will get you a free place to stay if so.If you want we can make it a triathalon drinking,racing,surfing.

You should be careful about stating that you can smoke people any day with a hangover, you never know who is posting.

 

[131313]

when I have the energy I'll post on the 'doping in the US peloton' question. Being that I've been racing as a domestic pro for about the last 8 yrs, and having raced here and a few races in Europe, I probably have a unique perspective.

As far as juniors though, there's no question in my mind that US juniors in general are clean, and any that are doping are doing it on their own or with some seriously messed up parents. After the Rene Wenzel/Greg Strock debacle, the federation realized that they couldn't stand the bad press. And, no offense to our juniors, but look at their results when they go to Europe. They're just over their heads.

As far as Phinney, who knows? I'm as disappointed as any that he left Vaughters, who is really trying to run a clean ship, and hitched his wagon to Armstrong. That doesn't mean he's doping, though. He has huge talent. Lots of anaerobic ability, high vo2 and superlow numbers in the tunnel for a guy his size. He was designed for the pursuit.

The ealier comparisons to Ben King are funny, though, as well as the suggestions that Phinney is suddenly stronger than King. I've raced with both on the road (including Cascade just a couple of weeks ago) and there's no comparison. King is a much stronger dude just a better bike racer.

I'm willing to give Phinney the benefit of the doubt but I have to admit, after dropping him like a bad habit before he crashed out, I'll be curious if he's riding away from me next year. If he follows a more natural progression then that's a different story. He's young and he'll get better. He probably has more headroom than King too. King really has his act together already, and has for a while. Phinney seems like a diamond in the rough, emphasis on rough.

 

[blackcat]

when I have the energy I'll post on the 'doping in the US peloton' question. Being that I've been racing as a domestic pro for about the last 8 yrs, and having raced here and a few races in Europe, I probably have a unique perspective.

As far as juniors though, there's no question in my mind that US juniors in general are clean, and any that are doping are doing it on their own or with some seriously messed up parents. After the Rene Wenzel/Greg Strock debacle, the federation realized that they couldn't stand the bad press. And, no offense to our juniors, but look at their results when they go to Europe. They're just over their heads.

As far as Phinney, who knows? I'm as disappointed as any that he left Vaughters, who is really trying to run a clean ship, and hitched his wagon to Armstrong. That doesn't mean he's doping, though. He has huge talent. Lots of anaerobic ability, high vo2 and superlow numbers in the tunnel for a guy his size. He was designed for the pursuit.

The ealier comparisons to Ben King are funny, though, as well as the suggestions that Phinney is suddenly stronger than King. I've raced with both on the road (including Cascade just a couple of weeks ago) and there's no comparison. King is a much stronger dude just a better bike racer.

I'm willing to give Phinney the benefit of the doubt but I have to admit, after dropping him like a bad habit before he crashed out, I'll be curious if he's riding away from me next year. If he follows a more natural progression then that's a different story. He's young and he'll get better. He probably has more headroom than King too. King really has his act together already, and has for a while. Phinney seems like a diamond in the rough, emphasis on rough.

well, Phinney rode very well in Europe, could have won Triptique Mont Chateux, I think King was his teammate there. Not sure if King rode Roubaix espoirs also. Did King ride Gila. I think Phinney was the lead Livestrong rider at Gila.

So, there are contradictory points on King v Phinney.

Someone said jnrs get their **** kicked in Europe. Not so. A young phenom Nathan Brown has had great success. Then Devine and Mccarty have done well in l'Izard in espoirs, and Van Garderen taking all before him in espoirs. So, the US more than holds it own, in the jnrs and espoirs in Europe. It also usually wins l'Abitibi Nations Cup, which draws international teams, occasionally some Eastern Euros, plus most often Japanese, and Kiwis. Sometimes Australian B squads.

 

[TRDean]

when I have the energy I'll post on the 'doping in the US peloton' question. Being that I've been racing as a domestic pro for about the last 8 yrs, and having raced here and a few races in Europe, I probably have a unique perspective.

As far as juniors though, there's no question in my mind that US juniors in general are clean, and any that are doping are doing it on their own or with some seriously messed up parents. After the Rene Wenzel/Greg Strock debacle, the federation realized that they couldn't stand the bad press. And, no offense to our juniors, but look at their results when they go to Europe. They're just over their heads.

As far as Phinney, who knows? I'm as disappointed as any that he left Vaughters, who is really trying to run a clean ship, and hitched his wagon to Armstrong. That doesn't mean he's doping, though. He has huge talent. Lots of anaerobic ability, high vo2 and superlow numbers in the tunnel for a guy his size. He was designed for the pursuit.

The ealier comparisons to Ben King are funny, though, as well as the suggestions that Phinney is suddenly stronger than King. I've raced with both on the road (including Cascade just a couple of weeks ago) and there's no comparison. King is a much stronger dude just a better bike racer.

I'm willing to give Phinney the benefit of the doubt but I have to admit, after dropping him like a bad habit before he crashed out, I'll be curious if he's riding away from me next year. If he follows a more natural progression then that's a different story. He's young and he'll get better. He probably has more headroom than King too. King really has his act together already, and has for a while. Phinney seems like a diamond in the rough, emphasis on rough.

Thanks for the great input...especially on Ben King...I reallly admire this young man. He really does seem to have his head screwed on straight! My son races with his younger brother...who is a very good rider too. Great family and I wish him all the success he can attain!!

 

[TRDean]

I appreciate everyones input in this thread. I guess ultimately does anyone think that PEDs can be fought in the younger ranks as opposed to waiting until these guys are pros? Get them while they are still young and impressionable? Having said that there are some disturbing stories of parental envolvement that are really really sad!!!

 

[Team Ferrari/Fuentes]

I think the Italians are no stranger to some junior doping. I remeber during the Mapei years an Italian Junior was caught with a load of gear stashed under the saddle of his scooter. Mapei promptly signed him and "looked after him"

What about facts? It's easy to spit to the air...
Mapei owner, Giorgio Squinzi, promoted clean cycling and tried hard to give talented youngsters like Pozzato and Cancellara a doping-free environment (far from the italian junior doping circuit). I don't know who you're referring to, but maybe you got the team name wrong... Even convicted doper Patrik Sinkewitz said that of all the teams that he rode for, Mapei was the only one that didn't have an "organized system"...