Just the facts on the latest Astana doping scandal

[poupou]

very interesting, but how reliable are these data?

For the french team, collected from Frederic Grappe's book about performance that was part of a scientific study on a french team...
and Livestrong.com for Lance's datas.

Cyclisme et optimisation de la performance
http://books.google.fr/books?id=AM-41f2ZlcEC&pg=PA409

Copy of the page here http://forum.cyclingnews.com/album.php?albumid=84

 

[Race Radio]

For the french team, collected from Frederic Grappe's book about performance that was part of a scientific study on a french team...
and Livestrong.com for Lance's datas.

Cyclisme et optimisation de la performance
http://books.google.fr/books?id=AM-41f2ZlcEC&pg=PA409

Copy of the page here http://forum.cyclingnews.com/album.php?albumid=84

It mirrors a similar study by Mokeburg and Damsgaard

 

[LMaggitti]

On the substance, I'm (mostly) with the "haters."

But my god, they can be just as frothingly irrational as the "fan boys."

Let's aside aside opinions about what is "really" going on. (There's PLENTY of evidence aside from the current investigation suggesting that yes, (almost) everyone dopes.) But if the only substances found are substances which are not subject to a blanket prohibition, but only prohibited in conjunction with doping, and there is no OTHER evidence (as opposed to well gounded supposition) of doping, then ... as a legal matter (again, set aside well grounded supposition) ... there is no proof of doping. Period.

 

[Race Radio]

On the substance, I'm (mostly) with the "haters."

But my god, they can be just as frothingly irrational as the "fan boys."

Let's aside aside opinions about what is "really" going on. (There's PLENTY of evidence aside from the current investigation suggesting that yes, (almost) everyone dopes.) But if the only substances found are substances which are not subject to a blanket prohibition, but only prohibited in conjunction with doping, and there is no OTHER evidence (as opposed to well gounded supposition) of doping, then ... as a legal matter (again, set aside well grounded supposition) ... there is no proof of doping. Period.

What would a team use large syringes for besides doping?

 

[53 x 11]

What would a team use large syringes for besides doping?

Raising cancer awareness?

 

[Oncearunner8]

Which makes your point about no doping substances being YET found pointless.

cold up there yet?

 

[LMaggitti]

What would a team use large syringes for besides doping?

You're missing the point - two seperate issues here:

(1) What people believe is "really" going on - yeah, sure, just more evidence supporting the proposition that most of the pros are doping - if you already belive that (as I do), you don't need this additional evidence; if you don't, this additional evidence won't change your mind.

(2) The legal aspects of the investigation - your argument is not a legitimate legal argument, whether the proceeding is criminal or civil.

That doesn't mean Astana is "innocent" in any epistemological sense; it does mean that the posts earlier in the thread which stated that the reported lack of banned substances is legally irrelevant are ... well, as I said, as misguided (that's putting it kindly) as any fan boy defense of Lance because he (cough, cough) has "never tested positive."

 

[Race Radio]

You're missing the point - two seperate issues here:

(1) What people believe is "really" going on - yeah, sure, just more evidence supporting the proposition that most of the pros are doping - if you already belive that (as I do), you don't need this additional evidence; if you don't, this additional evidence won't change your mind.

(2) The legal aspects of the investigation - your argument is not a legitimate legal argument, whether the proceeding is criminal or civil.

That doesn't mean Astana is "innocent" in any epistemological sense; it does mean that the posts earlier in the thread which stated that the reported lack of banned substances is legally irrelevant are ... well, as I said, as misguided (that's putting it kindly) as any fan boy defense of Lance because he (cough, cough) has "never tested positive."

I am not sure I understand your post, but the size of the syringes found are illegal in France so it is a legit legal argument.