Just wait for the protests of Valverde's innocence...

[palmerq]

Basso also has a cute sister.

That's the spirit I think doping should be acceptable if the riders spend their ill gotten earnings on breast enhancements for their acceptable looking sisters :S( I hope basso did this )


anyway I hope valverde gets away with it... I dont see the big deal. everyone was at in back in the day(which wasnt that long ago) but its been nearly 4 years now I think we should just write off op as something from the bad/entertaining old days.. I dont see the point of chasing someone who probably did what everyone else did 4-6 years ago and start again. 2008 is when I think things changed..


and I quite like valverde :S

 

[skidmark]

Kashechkin already tried the "human rights" defense:


http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/kashechkin-says-doping-controls-violate-human-rights

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/kashechkins-lawyer-makes-human-rights-case

Fail!


http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/belgian-court-dismisses-kashechkin-suit

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/kashechkins-suspension-upheld

I don't know if Valverde's legal team really expects the 'human rights' appeal to fly, but if it doesn't, and if CAS rules against the UCI on the second ruling, then the UCI can only ban Valverde worldwide until May 11, 2011, so everything they do to delay that possibility allows him to race for the maximum amount of time possible.

It's quite amazing, actually - think back to 2007 when the UCI tried to ban him from the Worlds because of Puerto - he got (and won) a CAS appeal within a week. Last year, however, as soon as his legal team realized he wasn't going to be suspended from racing until his CAS appeal was heard, their entire tactic was delay, delay, delay - this allowed him to win the Dauphine and Vuelta in that time, not to mention just finishing second in P-N. Another delay for appeal might bag him another Ardennes classic, or hell, even some success at the Tour if it goes on long enough.

Diabolically brilliant legal strategy. We'll see what kind of legal delay comes if the CAS rules in the UCIs favour...

 

[Dr. Maserati]

That's the spirit I think doping should be acceptable if the riders spend their ill gotten earnings on breast enhancements for their acceptable looking sisters :S( I hope basso did this )


anyway I hope valverde gets away with it... I dont see the big deal. everyone was at in back in the day(which wasnt that long ago) but its been nearly 4 years now I think we should just write off op as something from the bad/entertaining old days.. I dont see the point of chasing someone who probably did what everyone else did 4-6 years ago and start again. 2008 is when I think things changed..


and I quite like valverde :S

The reason it has taken 4 years is because of a deliberate ploy by Valverde and his legal team to delay and frustrate the process. Basso and Scarponi were both caught in OP as well have served their bans and are already back racing.

 

[elapid]

That's the spirit I think doping should be acceptable if the riders spend their ill gotten earnings on breast enhancements for their acceptable looking sisters :S( I hope basso did this )


anyway I hope valverde gets away with it... I dont see the big deal. everyone was at in back in the day(which wasnt that long ago) but its been nearly 4 years now I think we should just write off op as something from the bad/entertaining old days.. I dont see the point of chasing someone who probably did what everyone else did 4-6 years ago and start again. 2008 is when I think things changed..

LOL. Nice one. On a serious note, I also agree with you regarding Valverde and moving on. My personal feeling is get everyone or get no one. They're not going to get every one, so move on and learn the hard lessons.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

LOL. Nice one. On a serious note, I also agree with you regarding Valverde and moving on. My personal feeling is get everyone or get no one. They're not going to get every one, so move on and learn the hard lessons.

Then why bother with doing dope tests in the first place? It is the same principle - "they are not going to get everyone".

 

[Ripper]

Leave Valverde alone please.

That is not going to happen.

It's just not fair that Valverde is the only OP victim.

Well that is not quite true.

they have no proof. ( yes a bloodbag saying valv piti).

Actually they do. DNA. Documents stating what and how much purchased.

 

[Galic Ho]

Basso took his suspension they way ALL riders should take their suspensions - with honorable acceptance.

Although the sport would be healthier if suspensions did not exist - ie, dopers kicked out for good - the way Basso handled his suspension should become a template for healthy sport in a suspension infected cycling world.

Turds like Ricco could not care less about the sport - only about themselves.

Just imagine what would happen if the UCI ADDED 1 year to a suspension if you named names. Do you think turds like Ricco would still be naming names? Of course not - they are only looking out for themselves. Screw the sport. Me Me ME....can Me race sooner if I name names? Yes? Names Names NAMES.



Basso also has a cute sister.

You really are stupid. Basso raced while he was banned. Basso doesn't have an honourable bone in his body.

This thread belongs in the Clinic FFS!

Maybe I should start a thread titled "Which new forum member will start their I hate this guy (doper in question) rant next." This thread was predictable. If a Spanish judge seals evidence and that evidence is illegally obtained then that is a violation of one's legal rights. Valverde should complain. Premature anti-doping crusaders (cough, cough, Italians wanting revenge) should follow the letter of the law. **** CAS. take it to a real court and watch this get over turned.

 

[Galic Ho]

Where's Gallic Ho defending his "innocent wonderboy"?

Above. I never said Alejandro is innocent but I have an appreciation for the law. As was said by Libertine Seguros he never behaved illegally. Suspicious? Hell yes and he probably did dope, but retrospectively tearing someone to shreads is wrong regardless of how many of us hrer "Know" someone is dirty. You have to follow the law and behave within those boundaries. Valverde's alleged behaviour was not illegal in Spain at the time. OP was about Public Health Safety. Jesus Manzano almost died, hence the Guardia Civil investigated to confirm his story....because he was given bad blood bags. Public Health and not doping. The evidence does not carry over in Spain so Judge Serrano sealed it. CONI illegally obtained this evidence. Fact! That is a human rights violation according to the law.

If this goes to a high court, like the European Court, it will be thrown out the door if all they have is a blood bag and some initials. Honestly dude in future go to your local uni and take some LAW101 courses.

For the record. Valverde is no more dirty than Evans, Rogers and Gerrans. If one is doing it, they all are. Evidence...how they ride and who they associate with.

 

[Marva32]

I'm curious, if the UCI get the worldwide ban, how would that be applied? Would it be a fresh 2-year ban from now, or would it be concurrent with his current ban? If concurrent with the ban he has now, what about his results since the ban took place, and if not, will he then be able to race in Italy once he has completed his CONI sentence? All sorts of potential problems here.

 

[Galic Ho]

Then why bother with doing dope tests in the first place? It is the same principle - "they are not going to get everyone".

You just had your first "dumb" statement on this forum. I'll forgive you and explain why.

It is not the same principle when applied in the real world. Look at the manner evidence of doping is obtained. There are two main assets used; Doping tests and police investigations are not the same. They never are. What was Festina? What as OP? They were not doping tests. Do not mistake the two and anoint them similar and of equal weighting. Every major drug bust in cycling came about due to police investigations and not doping tests. Commentating on these matters requires distinction be given, hence Elapids point made sense. If you are going to investigate then get them all, or at least try to. Now apply that mentality to doping and control tests. There is a difference.

Can someone (moderator)close this thread and move it to the clinic or merge it with the Valverde CAS thread in there?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Above. I never said Alejandro is innocent but I have an appreciation for the law. As was said by Libertine Seguros he never behaved illegally. Suspicious? Hell yes and he probably did dope, but retrospectively tearing someone to shreads is wrong regardless of how many of us hrer "Know" someone is dirty. You have to follow the law and behave within those boundaries. Valverde's alleged behaviour was not illegal in Spain at the time. OP was about Public Health Safety. Jesus Manzano almost died, hence the Guardia Civil investigated to confirm his story....because he was given bad blood bags. Public Health and not doping. The evidence does not carry over in Spain so Judge Serrano sealed it. CONI illegally obtained this evidence. Fact! That is a human rights violation according to the law.

If this goes to a high court, like the European Court, it will be thrown out the door if all they have is a blood bag and some initials. Honestly dude in future go to your local uni and take some LAW101 courses.

For the record. Valverde is no more dirty than Evans, Rogers and Gerrans. If one is doing it, they all are. Evidence...how they ride and who they associate with.

Basso and Scarponi are innocent too?

There is a thread on this in the Clinic too.
I have been looking through the Valverde case today - and I have been looking for the story on Serrano being on vacation and that CONI illegally obtained it, I keep getting redirected to blogs or comment sections.

I have actually found an Italian piece where CONI say they got the permission from Serrano.

Evans, Rogers, Gerrans.... there DNA hasn't been matched to a blood bag in a gynecologists fridge which contained EPO.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

You just had your first "dumb" statement on this forum. I'll forgive you and explain why.

It is not the same principle when applied in the real world. Look at the manner evidence of doping is obtained. There are two main assets used; Doping tests and police investigations are not the same. They never are. What was Festina? What as OP? They were not doping tests. Do not mistake the two and anoint them similar and of equal weighting. Every major drug bust in cycling came about due to police investigations and not doping tests. Commentating on these matters requires distinction be given, hence Elapids point made sense. If you are going to investigate then get them all, or at least try to. Now apply that mentality to doping and control tests. There is a difference.

Can someone (moderator)close this thread and move it to the clinic or merge it with the Valverde CAS thread in there?

Or in the Spanish Federations case not bother at all.

 

[Oldman]

What makes him special is that he's a star who wins races. The UCI has always operated under the "principle" of protect the stars who are the face of the sport while throwing under the bus the small fish who get caught as "the few untalented bad apples of the sport who had to dope to keep up unlike the true champions who don't need drugs." It's crap, but not only does the policy not appear to be changing, it seems to be getting stronger.

Don't you think that McQuaid will count this as this year's "big catch" in the doping net, somehow? Not sure how they'll relate this to the bio-passport, though.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Above. I never said Alejandro is innocent but I have an appreciation for the law. As was said by Libertine Seguros he never behaved illegally. Suspicious? Hell yes and he probably did dope, but retrospectively tearing someone to shreads is wrong regardless of how many of us hrer "Know" someone is dirty. You have to follow the law and behave within those boundaries. Valverde's alleged behaviour was not illegal in Spain at the time. OP was about Public Health Safety. Jesus Manzano almost died, hence the Guardia Civil investigated to confirm his story....because he was given bad blood bags. Public Health and not doping. The evidence does not carry over in Spain so Judge Serrano sealed it. CONI illegally obtained this evidence. Fact! That is a human rights violation according to the law.

If this goes to a high court, like the European Court, it will be thrown out the door if all they have is a blood bag and some initials. Honestly dude in future go to your local uni and take some LAW101 courses.

For the record. Valverde is no more dirty than Evans, Rogers and Gerrans. If one is doing it, they all are. Evidence...how they ride and who they associate with.

When evans or gerrans are linked to a doping scandal which has some substance, come and let me know buddy!
The association arguement is a bit of a joke because nearly every rider will be linked to another doper !

I do agree that valverde's case has been badly handled?

I put this question to you...
Do you think that all top riders are dirty?

 

[pedaling squares]

...the way Basso handled his suspension should become a template for healthy sport...

There's nothing so healthy for the sport as a man lying to us with a smile on his face. Yes Ivan, I believe that you absolutely crushed the 2006 Giro field and then "intended" to dope. Who would be satisfied with the form you showed us in May?

Leave Valverde alone please. Even if he doped in the past, he's not using right now...

You just had your first "dumb" statement on this forum. I'll forgive you and explain why...

It is not the same principle when applied in the real world. Look at the manner evidence of doping is obtained. There are two main assets used; Doping tests and police investigations are not the same. They never are. What was Festina? What as OP? They were not doping tests. Do not mistake the two and anoint them similar and of equal weighting. Every major drug bust in cycling came about due to police investigations and not doping tests. Commentating on these matters requires distinction be given, hence Elapids point made sense. If you are going to investigate then get them all, or at least try to. Now apply that mentality to doping and control tests. There is a difference...

No offence GH, but the Doc made a fair comparison, and your statement is incorrect. Police investigations very, very rarely "get them all". Whether it be a matter of human, material, or financial resources, or whether it be timing or judicial/political willpower, nearly all investigations focus on a few targets where the evidence is strong enough to support a prosecution. The bird in the hand and all that. In the peloton, the "all" consists of men from numerous nations, backed by numerous sporting bodies. And physical evidence could be in any corner of the globe. No way is any investigation ever going to get them all, even if the UCI was a competent, honest organization. The only realistic option is for investigators to take riders down a few at a time.

I also wonder why this is not in the clinic. Any talk of Valv Piti's innocence is a doping discussion.

 

[auscyclefan94]

The moderators have gone missing again!

Straight to the clinic...

 

[Big GMaC]

Leave Valverde alone please. Even if he doped in the past, he's not using right now.

Basso also has a cute sister.

But didn't StrongArm hit that? --> Therefore damaged goods

The moderators have gone missing again!

Straight to the clinic...

There is a parallel thread running there already. Merge?

 

[Mellow Velo]

I don't understand this: "Valverde is a scapegoat" argument.
Lets be clear on this.
While, only a handful of riders suffered an outright OP ban and now, Valverde is set to become the sole Spanish sanction, every rider named in the document has suffered some financial restriction of trade.....bar one.....guess who?

Valverde has continued to ride, with impunity, at the highest level of the sport, while all his Spanish OP counterparts were forced into contracts with more lowly teams, after a period of inactivity.
The Italian rider Giampaolo Caruso was left in Lampre limbo, for over a season, before ending up at Ceramica.

Even Allan Davies had a spell of "name clearing" (lucky him) before making it back into the top flight.

Valverde has made a lot of cash, during this time. He can now spend some of it, on a two year holiday.

 

[igamogam]

Evidence

If this goes to a high court, like the European Court, it will be thrown out the door if all they have is a blood bag and some initials. Honestly dude in future go to your local uni and take some LAW101 courses.

Actually, they also have a positive match of Mr. Vs DNA mixed with EPO - pretty conclusive. The initials on the blood bag don't count for much.

This is unlikely to go to such a high level of law as Valverde's legal team will wisely advise him to back down when the Spanish courts finish their legal review and make the samples admissiable. Mr. V is "on a hiding to nothing" he should cut his losses and not make a complete fool of himself.

Personally I find it difficult to argue against the probability most, if not all, of the "great" riders of the last 50 years have used or at least dabbled with doping. That includes my heroes.

 

[Big GMaC]

Valverde is set to become the sole Spanish sanction, every rider named in the document has suffered some financial restriction of trade.....bar one.....guess who?

Just because I am not that good on who was named, is that aluding to Contador? Because Armstrong never worked with Fuentes and OP was after his time.

 

[theyoungest]

Just because I am not that good on who was named, is that aluding to Contador? Because Armstrong never worked with Fuentes and OP was after his time.

Valverde himself.

 

[Big GMaC]

Valverde himself.

Ok, mis-read on my part. As in he is the only rider named not be sanctioned. I read it as there is another Spanish rider named who has not been sanctioned (I took Piti's CONI ban as a sanction of sorts)

 

[Mellow Velo]

Just because I am not that good on who was named, is that aluding to Contador? Because Armstrong never worked with Fuentes and OP was after his time.

Nope, as already pointed out by theyoungest, Valverde himself.
Technically, Contador was not specifically named, although "AC the same as JJ or nothing" in Dr F's notes, is commonly thought to be our boy.
Not defending him, though, just the info available.

 

[Susan Westemeyer]

The moderators have gone missing again!

Yeah, even I get a day off every now and then.... moving this to the Clinic.

Susan

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Valverde himself.

Do we count Fränk Schleck too, or is he being conveniently forgotten again? I know there isn't as much evidence against Amigo de Brillo as there is against Valverde, but he's merrily riding around without sanction or blacklisting.