JV and Garmin - paragons of cleanER?

[pmcg76]

Why not? He could be running a program for trusted riders and those he doesn't trust can be doing their own thing as long as they pass the internal tests.

For someone who claims it is not black and white you really fail this one.

You really believe Ryder wouldn't be one of his trusted riders Surely if Garmin were running a program, it would be those guys Ryder, Martin, Talansky who would most likely be on it as those are they guys pulling in the big results.

I remember how previously it was all about how the Garmin A team were being doped by JV and his henchman. Now we have gone full circle in that JV is having the lesser lights doped but the big boys on his team are doing their own thing yet they all live in the one place in season and nobody knows a thing.

As usual, the amazing bending of narrative to fit whatever rubbish being spouted is unreal.

The other thing that seems strange to me is this idea that JV rescinded a good 6 figure contract to leave the sport, but came back to the sport via a junior team to make money by doping other riders whilst at the same time, continuing with his studies which would seem a tad unnecessary if his primary purpose is making money from cycling.

Either JV is the most amazing long game player ever or the narrative doesn't quite add up.

 

[Benotti69]

FFS, you have no reason to believe he's running a doping program. I mean, it's within the realm of possibility, but it's damn unlikely. I think you're way out to lunch on this one.

JV has employed some pretty specialised talented people in his sports science staff.

He spent a lot of money on internal testing. We were never told what internal testing was, it could be lots of different things.

It aint hard to beat the testers.

Anything is possible

I again repeat I don't believe it is possible to win a GT clean, I doubt the giro was ever won clean in modern doping era (since the 60s). Hesjedal ain't a brilliant rider. His blood values were up in 3rd week.

 

[pmcg76]

Pretty sure rider Ryder was on a Sky program minus the program in 2013.

2012?
That will be for the rider to explain.

Still, the question remains, wtf is wrong with Farrar? Still down?

If people want to believe Ryder was doping for his Giro win, ok with me.

But what we have here are posters at one point claiming JV is doping his team whilst at the same time calling him a liar because they claim he would have no idea if his riders were doping.

 

[red_flanders]

JV has employed some pretty specialised talented people in his sports science staff.

He spent a lot of money on internal testing. We were never told what internal testing was, it could be lots of different things.

It aint hard to beat the testers.

Anything is possible

I again repeat I don't believe it is possible to win a GT clean, I doubt the giro was ever won clean in modern doping era (since the 60s). Hesjedal ain't a brilliant rider. His blood values were up in 3rd week.

Do I think RH won the Giro clean? No. Possible? Yes, but if I had to bet I'd go with doped.

Do I think JV is the one providing a doping program? No, have never seen a shred of anything that would make me think this.

I think it's obvious that Wiggins doped while at Garmin for his 2009 Tour campaign. I don't believe that he did it with help from JV.

I don't think (to be honest) that JV has that much pull with some veteran riders. I don't think he is in any way motivated to run such a team. There's just nothing that I can see that makes me think he's running a program. I think that's pretty nutty.

 

[Benotti69]

As usual, the amazing bending of narrative to fit whatever rubbish being spouted is unreal.

you accuse me of a repeating a black and white view point, now i am bending it.

anything is possible in this sport. History has shown that.

I dont trust anyone in pro cycling, the sport has created that mistrust and JV coming in here and trying to mess with people's heads doesn;t help his cuase.

Liberty Sig asked him repeatedly a serious post. What does JV do? Reply to Digger who he accuses of posting BS.....

Anti-doping is a joke, why would any team compete in the sport clean and start off with such a disadvantage, it makes no sense and to a business guy it makes business suicide to ride clean when everyone else is juicing and TUEing their a$$es to podiums.

 

[pmcg76]

you accuse me of a repeating a black and white view point, now i am bending it.

anything is possible in this sport. History has shown that.

I dont trust anyone in pro cycling, the sport has created that mistrust and JV coming in here and trying to mess with people's heads doesn;t help his cuase.

Liberty Sig asked him repeatedly a serious post. What does JV do? Reply to Digger who he accuses of posting BS.....

Anti-doping is a joke, why would any team compete in the sport clean and start off with such a disadvantage, it makes no sense and to a business guy it makes business suicide to ride clean when everyone else is juicing and TUEing their a$$es to podiums.

So I forgot to ask was Mark Scanlon clean?? You never answered before>

 

[Benotti69]

Do I think RH won the Giro clean? No. Possible? Yes, but if I had to bet I'd go with doped.

Do I think JV is the one providing a doping program? No, have never seen a shred of anything that would make me think this.

I think it's obvious that Wiggins doped while at Garmin for his 2009 Tour campaign. I don't believe that he did it with help from JV.

I don't think (to be honest) that JV has that much pull with some veteran riders. I don't think he is in any way motivated to run such a team. There's just nothing that I can see that makes me think he's running a program. I think that's pretty nutty.

I dont see JV as an anti doping advocate. Yes he was part of taking down Armstrong but with a big helping hand from Feds re Garmin talking to Tygart, but apart from that, what? His riders rode for other teams, yet why are they not talking about doping on Phonak for example?

JV is a businessman so much so that he wants the MBA to prove how serious a businessman he is and in cycling he has to win or at least be competing for podiums otherwise he is out of business.

How does he do that when doping is part of the fabric?

He does it with smarts, the details i can only guess at.

But if his team was clean, why all the internal testing? why not rely on the UCI testing? If UCI testing is not good enough, well then the other teams are beating it as usual.

Then it comes back to how can a so called clean team beat doping teams? Especially over 3 weeks or at monuments when everyone wants desperately to win and will pull out all the stops?

JV talks the talks and lots believe because they want to believe at least someone is clean, but sorry i am not buying it. Maybe if Garmin never podiumed a GT or monument without a huge slice of luck, like there TdF stage win this year.

So may think Armstrong created the doping culture and when he left the culture left with him. Bollix. Look around the sport, so many ex dopers, dodgy doctors, dodgy team owners, it really is inconceivable these guys would stop doping because it was no longer 'cool'. The only thing to stop them is stringent testing with stringent bans, even then it is the riders who take the fall, not the DS, doctors.......

Sorry but till i see some real funding being put into a independent anti doping body i just well not believe that doping is doen by the minority.

It is the way of the world. JV knows this better than others, he believes he is playing it the way he needs to play it.

 

[Benotti69]

So I forgot to ask was Mark Scanlon clean?? You never answered before>

Scott Mercier

Christophe Bassons

What?

This aint the Scanlon thread. Start one.

 

[Benotti69]

The other thing that seems strange to me is this idea that JV rescinded a good 6 figure contract to leave the sport, but came back to the sport via a junior team to make money by doping other riders whilst at the same time, continuing with his studies which would seem a tad unnecessary if his primary purpose is making money from cycling.

I have worked with people who have left my field of work, poorly paid, to go work on t'other side for vast amounts of money, but many returned within months saying that the money was not worth it. Money aint everything. Saying that JV tweeted about his 'new' porsche.....

Either JV is the most amazing long game player ever or the narrative doesn't quite add up.

It appears to me JV is enjoying his job. Saying that he has completed his MBA which if things go belly up in cycling he has his insurance to go work elsewhere and no doubt having beaten the other business men at their own game for so long means JV shouldn't find it hard to swim in the shark infested waters of business.

Y'all forgetting, this is a business to JV, one which he currently enjoys greatly, enough to get down and dirty with the likes of little ol me and you from time to time...... keeping it real.

 

[gooner]

Scott Mercier

Christophe Bassons

What?

This aint the Scanlon thread. Start one.

Why don't you answer it though? You mention two riders who names aren't on the thread.

You work from default.

 

[pmcg76]

Scott Mercier

Christophe Bassons

What?

This aint the Scanlon thread. Start one.

Amazing that you cant just give a straigh yes or no answer to a very straightforward question.

 

[Benotti69]

Why don't you answer it though? You mention two riders who names aren't on the thread.

You work from default.

Amazing that you cant just give a straigh yes or no answer to a very straightforward question.

For the tag team Paddies who still want to believe that Irish rider Dan Martin doesn't dope yet beat big time juicers to win a momument.

I would be very surprised if Mark Scanlon did not dope. He beat Pozzato in 1998 Junior World Champs. Pozzato rode that clean? I doubt Pozzato ever rode clean in his life so Scanlon was that good? or he did what everyone else did?


Amazing to you guys who constantly follows me trying to dismiss my posts as black and white and repeated ad nauseum, yet cannot point to where the sport cleanED up and who cleanED it up.

 

[Beech Mtn]

Is it worth having a discussion whether the Garmin guys had much of choice in testifying honestly, given that it was known that Floyd was cooperating with Novitzky, and they would've expected Betsy and Frankie to also cooperate fully? It's one thing to lie to Tygart, but there was a federal investigation going, with the possibility of perjury charges. And you don't know who all is saying what. It would've been foolish not to tell the truth.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the contributions from everybody who told the truth to help bring down the USPS ring. But a lot of these riders (the Garmins and the non-Garmins both) didn't have much of a choice. It's not the same as voluntarily going to USADA many years ago - like maybe back around the time everybody decided it was no longer "cool" to keep doping

 

[gooner]

For the tag team Paddies who still want to believe that Irish rider Dan Martin doesn't dope yet beat big time juicers to win a momument.

I would be very surprised if Mark Scanlon did not dope. He beat Pozzato in 1998 Junior World Champs. Pozzato rode that clean? I doubt Pozzato ever rode clean in his life so Scanlon was that good? or he did what everyone else did?


Amazing to you guys who constantly follows me trying to dismiss my posts as black and white and repeated ad nauseum, yet cannot point to where the sport cleanED up and who cleanED it up.

And guess who couldn't believe he won it clean and even taunted him about it?

Yeah, the italians.

Don't believe me, ask Shane Stokes and Anto Moran about it.

 

[pmcg76]

For the tag team Paddies who still want to believe that Irish rider Dan Martin doesn't dope yet beat big time juicers to win a momument.

I would be very surprised if Mark Scanlon did not dope. He beat Pozzato in 1998 Junior World Champs. Pozzato rode that clean? I doubt Pozzato ever rode clean in his life so Scanlon was that good? or he did what everyone else did?


Amazing to you guys who constantly follows me trying to dismiss my posts as black and white and repeated ad nauseum, yet cannot point to where the sport cleanED up and who cleanED it up.

Well believing Martin winning a one day classic clean is no more ridiculous than believing LeMond was winning 3 week Tours against riders jacked up to the gills on cortisone, testosterone etc. Whats good for the goose is good for the gander.

We don't need to point out anything as plenty of sports scientists do that already. They are bigger experts on this than any of us.

It also takes an incredible amount of hubris on your behalf to acuse others of repeating things ad-nauseum, but then I wouldn't expect anymore.

Also truly amazing that you are still unwilling to give a definitive answer on Scanlon. There are usually no 'probables' in the world of Benotti. My summation would be that you don't believe Scanlon was a cheater but you can't admit it as it sends your whole shtick astray so instead you give this wishy-washy 'probably doped' answer. Hard to convince others to believe in something you don't truly believe yourself. Eh?

 

[pmcg76]

Is it worth having a discussion whether the Garmin guys had much of choice in testifying honestly, given that it was known that Floyd was cooperating with Novitzky, and they would've expected Betsy and Frankie to also cooperate fully? It's one thing to lie to Tygart, but there was a federal investigation going, with the possibility of perjury charges. And you don't know who all is saying what. It would've been foolish not to tell the truth.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the contributions from everybody who told the truth to help bring down the USPS ring. But a lot of these riders (the Garmins and the non-Garmins both) didn't have much of a choice. It's not the same as voluntarily going to USADA many years ago - like maybe back around the time everybody decided it was no longer "cool" to keep doping

Correct me if I am wrong but didn't the testimonies to USADA only happen after the Federal case had collapsed. That was the impression I got from the various publications on the matter. Wasn't that the only way USADA could get George or Levi to testify, didn't they more or less threaten them with suspensions based on the Garmin testimonies if they didn't co-operate with USADA.

They could have told the truth to the Feds but ignored USADA as the Feds didn't/couldn't?? pass the info on.

Maybe one of the dedicated followers of the Armstrong case knows better than I.

 

[gooner]

For the tag team Paddies who still want to believe that Irish rider Dan Martin doesn't dope yet beat big time juicers to win a momument.

I would be very surprised if Mark Scanlon did not dope. He beat Pozzato in 1998 Junior World Champs. Pozzato rode that clean? I doubt Pozzato ever rode clean in his life so Scanlon was that good? or he did what everyone else did?


Amazing to you guys who constantly follows me trying to dismiss my posts as black and white and repeated ad nauseum, yet cannot point to where the sport cleanED up and who cleanED it up.

Is Kimmage in this Paddies group too?

He said he was going to use Martin's performance as a way of judging how clean the Tour was last year.

 

[autologous]

Well believing Martin winning a one day classic clean is no more ridiculous than believing LeMond was winning 3 week Tours against riders jacked up to the gills on cortisone, testosterone etc. Whats good for the goose is good for the gander.

I was wondering how long it would take you to bring up Lemond. I was a little worried yesterday that you would break your habit, but you came through. Good job.

It also takes an incredible amount of hubris on your behalf to acuse others of repeating things ad-nauseum, but then I wouldn't expect anymore.

absolutely priceless, given your absurd fixation on spouting

"But, but.... LEMOND!! "

as a tired sputtering fallback when you're fresh out of any meaningful answers.

 

[kingjr]

I was wondering how long it would take you to bring up Lemond. I was a little worried yesterday that you would break your habit, but you came through. Good job.



absolutely priceless, given your absurd fixation on spouting

"But, but.... LEMOND!! "

as a tired sputtering fallback when you're fresh out of any meaningful answers.

If you follow this forum especially the clinic, Greg Lemond comes up in every topic sooner or later whether pmcg76 is taking part or not.
It's the clinics variation of Godwin's Law.

 

[Benotti69]

Well believing Martin winning a one day classic clean is no more ridiculous than believing LeMond was winning 3 week Tours against riders jacked up to the gills on cortisone, testosterone etc. Whats good for the goose is good for the gander.

A one day classic or a Monument. there is a difference. I am beginning to revise my opinion on LeMond. I was of the idea that he was clean, based on how he tried to slay cycling's golden goose and no one said "LeMond you hypocrite" or Sassi's point that LeMond was the height of clean Wattage!

How does that cook your goose?

We don't need to point out anything as plenty of sports scientists do that already. They are bigger experts on this than any of us.

Yes and Ashenden said the dark era was not over.

It also takes an incredible amount of hubris on your behalf to acuse others of repeating things ad-nauseum, but then I wouldn't expect anymore.

It is an internet forum, an echo chamber, dont get carried away that the clinic has any influence, god forbid, the sport would've cleaned up 4 years ago

You dismiss my opinion repeatedly. Move on. We disagree. I wont believe the majority of professional cyclists are winning clean till i see real independent properly funded and transparent Anti doping. Shame JV isnt tweeting about such things....but that would upset the apple cart and be bad for business.

I also wont believe the majority of professional cyclists are assisting their team leaders without doping till i see real independent properly funded and transparent Anti doping.

Also truly amazing that you are still unwilling to give a definitive answer on Scanlon.

Well, considering the only person who can answer it is Scanlon and as he cant prove a negative it then comes down to whether you believe him or not.

There are usually no 'probables' in the world of Benotti. My summation would be that you don't believe Scanlon was a cheater but you can't admit it as it sends your whole shtick astray so instead you give this wishy-washy 'probably doped' answer. Hard to convince others to believe in something you don't truly believe yourself. Eh?

The 'world of Beno' allows for anything. However you want to castigate me as unbending yet you point to my former idea the LeMond was clean and yet no one else was......that is not the 'world of Beno' you paint.

My 'shtick' allows for anomalies in the 'shytstem'. There will always be people who swim against the tide. Whether they once swam with the tide in the beginning can be part of deciding to swim against it.

I am not here to convince others. I post my opinion here. At the end of the day whether anyone cares to listen or not is neither here nor there as i realise i am a minute voice in a minute echo chamber.

 

[Benotti69]

Is Kimmage in this Paddies group too?

And i thought pmcg76 would bring up Kimmage 1st. Goodman mick.

He said he was going to use Martin's performance as a way of judging how clean the Tour was last year.

Kimmage is not the guy who gives the thumbs up or down on whether a rider is clean or not.

Sadly there is nothing at the moment in the sport that we can use to point to and say well this rider has done this, done that and shown this so it is 99.9% probability that this rider is the real deal and clean.

 

[pmcg76]

I was wondering how long it would take you to bring up Lemond. I was a little worried yesterday that you would break your habit, but you came through. Good job.



absolutely priceless, given your absurd fixation on spouting

"But, but.... LEMOND!! "

as a tired sputtering fallback when you're fresh out of any meaningful answers.

I make no aplogies for using LeMond whatsoever. It is a simple rule that I invented a long time ago "the LeMond excpetion rule". Everything that is considered a sign of doping is applicable to everyone except LeMond by many posters on here.

LeMond is held up as the "clean" measuring stick around here so of course he is going to get dragged into a lot of stuff.

If you don't like it, too bad for you.

 

[Beech Mtn]

Correct me if I am wrong but didn't the testimonies to USADA only happen after the Federal case had collapsed. That was the impression I got from the various publications on the matter. Wasn't that the only way USADA could get George or Levi to testify, didn't they more or less threaten them with suspensions based on the Garmin testimonies if they didn't co-operate with USADA.

They could have told the truth to the Feds but ignored USADA as the Feds didn't/couldn't?? pass the info on.

Maybe one of the dedicated followers of the Armstrong case knows better than I.

IIRC, there were reports that Tygart sat in when some of them spoke to Novitzky. Not sure how many of the folks did the tag-team testimony that way.

I think an argument can be made that the Floyd+Andreus cooperation led to the Garmin cooperation, and the combined Floyd+Andreus+Tyler+Garmins cooperation then pretty well forced the hands of holdouts like George+Levi.

I think the fact that folks were talking to Novitzky/feds was the real tipping point. USADA had apparently been trying to get Lance for years, with little success. The possibility of perjury was a bigger impetus than just a noble wish to clean up cycling.

 

[Benotti69]

I make no aplogies for using LeMond whatsoever. It is a simple rule that I invented a long time ago "the LeMond excpetion rule". Everything that is considered a sign of doping is applicable to everyone except LeMond by many posters on here.

LeMond is held up as the "clean" measuring stick around here so of course he is going to get dragged into a lot of stuff.

If you don't like it, too bad for you.

The clinic is not the reason for LeMond being held up as the limits of clean cycling. Aldo Sassi takes credit for that. But then again Sassi doesn't really have that much credibility when you examine his past associations.

Also LeMond's pronouncements about Armstrong being the greatest fraud in the sport was seen as attempting to kill the golden goose by many and yet no one shouted "hypocrite" at LeMond.

So LeMond does have some credibility, but his recent associations with dopers and procalimations leaves a lot to be desired.

 

[ChrisE]

The clinic is not the reason for LeMond being held up as the limits of clean cycling. Aldo Sassi takes credit for that. But then again Sassi doesn't really have that much credibility when you examine his past associations.

Also LeMond's pronouncements about Armstrong being the greatest fraud in the sport was seen as attempting to kill the golden goose by many and yet no one shouted "hypocrite" at LeMond.

So LeMond does have some credibility, but his recent associations with dopers and procalimations leaves a lot to be desired.

BS. The main reason GL is held up as the clean hero in the clinic is because he is the enemy of LA. That's the source of all the contradictions pmc alludes to...pretzel logic to maintain the tribalism.