JV and Garmin - paragons of cleanER?

[IzzyStradlin]

Yet Floyd did race in 2009?

But Floyd was looking baaad in the OUCH/Bahati years. Obviously overweight and unmotivated. Hiring him would be taking on a huge project.

I certainly wouldn't spend my budget on him at that point.

 

[MarkvW]

But Floyd was looking baaad in the OUCH/Bahati years. Obviously overweight and unmotivated. Hiring him would be taking on a huge project.

I certainly wouldn't spend my budget on him at that point.

And Garmin would have had to take Floyd without his dope, making the gamble even riskier.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

But Floyd was looking baaad in the OUCH/Bahati years. Obviously overweight and unmotivated. Hiring him would be taking on a huge project.

I certainly wouldn't spend my budget on him at that point.

Wait what?

JV: no other team asked ASO/UCI if they could hire Floyd, because they were not interested
DW: hang on, he raced - so either they asked or not, but he raced.
IS: ah yes but he wasn't in shape

Sorry, but I am not discussing whether he was in shape or not. Just trying to clarify the claim that noone asked ASO/UCI and noone was interested in Floyd.

Now, possibly JV meant noone at the pro tour level vs conti which is where he ended up. Fair point.

 

[ultimobici]

Yet Floyd did race in 2009?

But not in Europe, he was reduced to riding crits on a Mickey Mouse team.

 

[blackcat]

loyd flandis deserved more than the simpsons surely

 

[blackcat]

But not in Europe, he was reduced to riding crits on a Mickey Mouse team.

tour of southland. texpat

 

[blackcat]

But not in Europe, he was reduced to riding crits on a Mickey Mouse team.

Ouch by orthopedic

 

[TexPat]

tour of southland. texpat

Yep. That must've been humiliating.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

But not in Europe, he was reduced to riding crits on a Mickey Mouse team.

He only finished 12 seconds behind Chris Horner at the Tour of California. Nudge nudge wink wink.

 

[sniper]

Yet Floyd did race in 2009?

Sounds like all the teams testing high blood values at the Giro - you make stuff er say stuff to support your narrative that is completely unverifiable.

Beyond that - the story you are asking us to believe, as to how you know what you are claiming, involves:

1. the UCI/ASO telling you, "no other team has asked us if it's ok to hire Floyd" OR
2. all the other teams in the peloton - all of them, every single one, telling you, either unasked or after you asked them, "nope, we didn't ask the ASO/UCI if it's ok to hire Floyd".

I mean. What other explanation is there?

Same as at the start of the Giro - either
1. all the teams told you their riders had high Hgb counts OR
2. the testing org (and you mentioned Rossi, but only much later in the thread) told you private details like, "oh yeah all the other teams tested high as well". Again, either unasked or you asked and she / they told you.

No doubt this appears as a personal attack, and a bunch of posters are just itching to put me in my place as a JV hater.

But in all sincerity, I am really only just trying to understand.

How do you know none of the other teams asked the ASO/UCI?
How can we verify that you did ask, and that their response is the reason you didn't hire Floyd? (which is what you said much earlier in this thread, from memory). To an outsider, the public negativity of your team's riders towards Floyd seems a far more likely reason he was not signed on by you.

good post.
no need to 'try to understand', you understand it perfectly already.

ignores the more probing questions or replies with insults.
throws around statements and data that are often either unverifiable or half truths or flat out inventions. when confronted with contradictions, again the answer is to either ignore or insult.
the questions he does address are more suited for the professional road cycling forum, not the clinic.

it's interesting to have him here, i've said that plenty of times, but then he should face the probing questions, yet he doesn't.
it is beyond me how posters like yespatterns, izzystraddling and dirtyworks can suggest JV's being bullied, or is somehow the victim of mockery. get real.

 

[Franklin]

Why all the mockery from Digger and Sniper? I think JV provides some interesting data points whether you believe him or not. No need to drive off an inside viewpoint with insults.

Indeed.

Also, it seems they are completely unable to see their own blinders. saying someone is a nice guy and a talent is not the same as saying someone is racing clean.

I met Jan Ulrich. He's a very nice guy. I'd say he's a massive talent. He's also a doper and a major idiot with his drinking/drugs related car accidents.

I have very dear friends who I strongly disagree with on politics.

JV saying he likes AC is not alarming in the slightest. And his phrasing on how he dislikes Diggers words but reserves personal judgment as he never met him is commendable.

 

[sniper]

Indeed.

Also, it seems they are completely unable to see their own blinders. saying someone is a nice guy and a talent is not the same as saying someone is racing clean.

I met Jan Ulrich. He's a very nice guy. I'd say he's a massive talent. He's also a doper and a major idiot with his drinking/drugs related car accidents.

I have very dear friends who I strongly disagree with on politics.

JV saying he likes AC is not alarming in the slightest. And his phrasing on how he dislikes Diggers words but reserves personal judgment as he never met him is commendable.

he tried to hire contador.
but regardless, you're missing the bigger point.
the issue here is that JV puts himself on the highest possible horse by saying he dedicates his life to antidoping.
if only he'd remove that sentence from his twitter account, he can throw barbecues with Riis and Vino for all i care.
that sentence is not compatible with his statements and deeds in the past or in the present.
it's, well, hypocrit.
Digger has an issue not with JV but with hypocricy.
Let's stop suggesting Digger is somehow on a personal crusade against JV.
As far as I can tell, Digger treats Brailsford, Wiggo, Walsh and others with the same brush.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Mister Vaughters, whats the deal with Tyler Farrar these days?

He's in a transition phase.

 

[pastronef]

he tried to hire contador.
but regardless, you're missing the bigger point as well.
the issue here is that JV puts himself on the highest possible horse by saying he dedicates his life to antidoping.
if only he'd remove that sentence from his twitter account, he can start liking contador as much as he wishes. that sentence is not compatible with his statements and deeds in the past or in the present.
it's, well, hypocrit.
Digger has an issue not with JV but with hypocricy.
Let's stop suggesting Digger is somehow on a personal crusade against JV.
As far as I can tell, Digger treats Brailsford, Wiggo, Walsh and others with the same brush.

wow, I did not know Digger and co were so mad because of a twitter sentence.
kidding

 

[pastronef]

He's in a transition phase.

you mean this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=800M1P855K4

 

[kingjr]

Transition phase, isn't that what the English national football (soccer) team has been going through for the past 44 years?

 

[pmcg76]

he tried to hire contador.
but regardless, you're missing the bigger point as well.
the issue here is that JV puts himself on the highest possible horse by saying he dedicates his life to antidoping.
if only he'd remove that sentence from his twitter account, he can start liking contador as much as he wishes.
that sentence is not compatible with his statements and deeds in the past or in the present.
it's, well, hypocrit.
Digger has an issue not with JV but with hypocricy.
Let's stop suggesting Digger is somehow on a personal crusade against JV.
As far as I can tell, Digger treats Brailsford, Wiggo, Walsh and others with the same brush.

If hypocrisy is what annoys people, could you point to someone connected with cycling who is not a hypocrite?

I said this before to Digger but what is the difference in JV liking Contador and Kimmage liking Millar. Kimmage is considered the biggest anti-doping advocate ever, yet he likes Millar. That is the exact same hypocrisy as Digger is hitting JV with. Has Digger called out Kimmage in public, he says he has talked with Kimmage about it but how is that any more verifiable than some of the stuff JV posts.

In that recent documentary, Kimmage went back to the Tour and sat in the company of many of the other former riders, I am guessing many of them were dopers and Kimmage was happy to do so. How is that not hypocritical.

Digger claims he "knows" Floyd and I asked him much time he has spent in the company of Floyd. It was ignored. Having a twitter conversaton doesn't mean you know someone. Digger see's himself as some sort of insider but puts forward very little inside info.

The problem with Digger and plenty more posters here is that they can only see things in black and white so everything is hypocritical yet they are unable to see their own hypocrisies when it comes to certain things.

 

[sniper]

...And his phrasing on how he dislikes Diggers words but reserves personal judgment as he never met him is commendable.

must be dark up there, ay

anyway, he started saying he dislikes Digger.
How is that commendable? It's uncommon even in the Clinic.
His correction was only normal, because his initial statement was idiotic.
But fair enough, let's commend him for the correction.
Still, then, what exactly is there in Digger's words that he dislikes?
Digger certainly didn't start any personal attacks (may have responded with such, but didn't start it)

Another point is that Digger has notably pointed out a lot of dodgy stuff that concerns a certain Team Sky.
Vaughters (if he dedicates his life to antidoping and if Garmin are clean) should be concerned that Sky might be doping.
However, Vaughters is somehow more concerned with discrediting Digger.

 

[sniper]

If hypocrisy is what annoys people, could you point to someone connected with cycling who is not a hypocrite?

we've gone through this.
many, in fact.
let's start with Tinkov.

I said this before to Digger but what is the difference in JV liking Contador and Kimmage liking Millar. Kimmage is considered the biggest anti-doping advocate ever, yet he likes Millar. That is the exact same hypocrisy as Digger is hitting JV with. Has Digger called out Kimmage in public, he says he has talked with Kimmage about it but how is that any more verifiable than some of the stuff JV posts.

see my response to Franklin.
firstly, it's not that he liked Contador, it's that he tried to hire him.
second, he has this statement of "dedicated my life to antidooping" on his twitter account. Kimmage certainly isn;'t rubbing it in our faces like that. For JV, it just seems a gratuite PR statement because there is no data, facts or deeds coming from JV to back it up. Only words.

 

[Franklin]

must be dark up there, ay

anyway, he started saying he dislikes Digger.
How is that commendable? It's uncommon even in the Clinic.
His correction was only normal, because his initial statement was idiotic.
But fair enough, let's commend him for the correction.
Still, then, what exactly is there in Digger's words that he dislikes?
Digger certainly didn't start any personal attacks (may have responded with such, but didn't start it)

Another point is that Digger has notably pointed out a lot of dodgy stuff that concerns a certain Team Sky.
Vaughters (if he dedicates his life to antidoping and if Garmin are clean) should be concerned that Sky might be doping.
However, Vaughters is somehow more concerned with discrediting Digger.

Sniper, even you should realise several people commented on Snipers words, so JV is hardly alone in not liking Diggers tone.

And for the record, I'm not seeing much merit in it either.

I know you want a witch hunt where JV spills beans, hurts colleagues, hurts friends and then gets tossed out of the sport for good. I don't see what good would come from that. It's extremely easy to demand a moral stand when you have no stake in it.

And on him dedicating his life to fight doping. Well, Garmin is supposedly to be his vision for an anti-doping team. Nobody can deny Garmin is his life. It's grandstanding, but not beyond reason. He has an image to sell, as does any executive in the world.

Somehow people here don't realise that JV is also responsible for everyone depending on the team. He needs to monetarize himself and his team, otherwise there will be people being unemployed. And that goes beyond the riders.

 

[Franklin]

firstly, it's not that he liked Contador, it's that he tried to hire him.

This is ***. JV hired quite a few dopers and never made that a secret. What he did say was that those riders would race clean under his tutelage.

So if he hires AC then let's him ride on water and bread, what's exactly the problem again?

 

[Franklin]

For JV, it just seems a gratuite PR statement because there is no data, facts or deeds coming from JV to back it up. Only words.

As I said above, ofc JV sells this image. That's an important part of his job!

Indeed the logical consequence is that the only way JV would get your respect if he destroys his team and leaves the sport. Ridiculous.

And Tinkoff is not comparable as he's not the executive and is not dependend on cycling. it's a bizarre comparison.

 

[sniper]

As I said above, ofc JV sells this image. That's an important part of his job!

Indeed the logical consequence is that the only way JV would get your respect if he destroys his team and leaves the sport. Ridiculous.

where did i say that?
stop putting words in peoples mouths. ridiculous.

and please distinguish between JV in the media and on twitter, and JV in here.
It's his decision to come in here.
Tell me why we should treat him with gloves in here?
If he doesn't want to talk about doping, let him join the Road Cycling forum instead.

to be sure, I admit there is a subjective element to a person's sense for hypocricy.
Your sense of it may differ from mine.
I can only say that my sense of it seems to align with Digger's.

 

[pmcg76]

This is ***. JV hired quite a few dopers and never made that a secret. What he did say was that those riders would race clean under his tutelage.

So if he hires AC then let's him ride on water and bread, what's exactly the problem again?

Beat me to the punch on this one, they signed Dekker well after the interest in Contador. It is still perfectly understandable that people don't like the idea of a supposedly clean team hiring dopers but JV has not been hypocritical on this. His version of anti-doping includes the possibility of second chances/rehabilitation whilst others just want banishment. There is validity in both approaches but it is a matter of personal opinion.

From the little bit of inside info I have garnered through the grapevine, JV is genuine in his stance and that is the main point of his team. To me, that is all that matters.

 

[Franklin]

where did i say that?
stop putting words in peoples mouths. ridiculous.

It's the logical implication if he would stop selling his image.

good on you if your intelligence isn't insulted when he says he's a 100% sure Ryder won the giro 2012 clean.

I don't exactly like Ryder and would not be surprised if he doped.
I would also hardly be surprised if JV is lieing to all of us.

But I also know of no evidence that either Ryder was doping or JV is lieing.

In the media, twitter, etc., perfectly fine, understandable.
In here? fail.

There is no differece. If JV would say XXX is the biggest dope peddler in the world it would spread beyond this place.

to be sure, I admit there is a subjective element to a person's sense for hypocricy.
Your sense of it may differ from mine.
I can only say that my sense of it seems to align with Digger's.

Yep, and that of other differs, so don't be surprised people dislike the tone of the conversation.

There's quite a difference between suspensoin of disbelief and being unreasonably rude. As above I have shown exactly why there's no hypocrisie in hiring AC, yet it's being trotted out and not retracted even though it's clearly nonsense.

It's one thing to question Ryder, but there's quite a bit more going on in here and clearly not exactly productive. What you want of JV will not happen.