JV talks, sort of

[skidmark]

as a fairly non-vocal (maybe it's because I don't think I know what I'm talking about) clinic reader, I might speak for a significant silent minority (majority?) when I say that this whole exchange is extremely helpful and refreshing. When Mr. JV1973 says that it's like talking to a stop sign, I want to at least assure him that there are some members here who mostly read, who don't know what to believe, and don't have the first clue what to think about what the professional peloton members do or think. We're swaying in the breeze, and if the only tangible things we see are wild conspiracy theory after wild conspiracy theory (I exaggerate, but this place sometimes feels like it), it becomes at least somewhat believable after awhile. Seeing someone who is inside the highest levels of the sport, and one of the highest-profile figures of anti-doping in the sport, come on here and defend himself in a reasoned and clear way goes a long way to making me hopeful.

Of course I take things with a grain of salt (yes, I feel like people in pro cycling have lied before), but everything that's been said makes sense to me. Of course I wanna hear more, as everyone here clearly does from the non-stop peppering of questions, but I want to at least note that in the atmosphere of 'give us moremoremore' that I feel in this thread, I am very happy to have read the interactions that have been put here already. So thanks.

I wish that other people in the highest levels of sport that deserve the abuse they'd get here (coughMcQuaidcough) would post here.

 

[the big ring]

When a sample is "pre" race, its usually at around 7am. Post race would have been 5-6 PM... So, 11 hours difference. I don't know if hypoxia could be it, but it's a possibility. Another possibility is that due to the extreme stage up to the Stelvio the day before, the body was ramping up, as there was some cell destruction/hypoxia. There are many theories. I don't know which one is correct.

I do know increased retics in this amount would provide zero short term performance gain, so I can logically rule intentional manipulation out.

I appreciate the responses. It's certainly piqued my curiosity.

Ryder's TT depart time was 3:38. He TT'd for ~34 minutes, arriving around 4:12pm.

I've only ever seen footage of riders trying to escape the chaperones in the Tour, where it seems they grab them as soon as they finish the stage, so they can't go do something "special" or disappear entirely.

What's the process at the Giro? Do they really have the chaperone hang around until 6pm before the test is done? Is the rider allowed to go take a shower for 20 minutes?

The other thing is the stage testing protocol. Ryder was never tested when he took the leader's jersey, except for the last stage. Is that normal?

ETA:
When did you receive Ryder's values - do you have to request them or are all rider's values sent to the team automatically?
Were you there to celebrate Ryder's win with the team, or were you knee deep in other race / team issues elsewhere?

 

[JV1973]

jv, here’s a question that bothered me for a while. Would appreciate if you shed some light….

ashenden once mentioned that he was surprised to learn from floyd (as late as 2010) that micro dosing epo directly into a vein was an effective epo test beater. (i do have a fairly good background in dope testing and perfectly understand why). tyler in his book mentioned that he was using the method as early as 2001 and, correct me if I am wrong, in your nyt article you mentioned using the method as early as 2002.

My question is, given that ashenden’s surprise was genuine, and i do not assume it was not, almost a decade lag in the understanding of the straight-forward cheating method seem mind-boggling.

Would this example not be possible under today’s testing reality ?

thanks in advance !

I'm not sure why Aschenden would have been so under informed. I can tell you with absolute certainty that WADA was well aware of micro dosing and IV EPO use in 2003. It took some time to perfect new testing methods and timing protocols after this info was given to them, so there would be a lag. But Aschenden not knowing about this in 2010 is very odd.

No, I don't think there is such a thing that is evading the testers, RIGHT NOW. that doesn't mean in 2 yrs time that won't change. It just means that 2012 was a good year for anti-doping in cycling.

 

[Netserk]

as a fairly non-vocal (maybe it's because I don't think I know what I'm talking about) clinic reader, I might speak for a significant silent minority (majority?) when I say that this whole exchange is extremely helpful and refreshing. When Mr. JV1973 says that it's like talking to a stop sign, I want to at least assure him that there are some members here who mostly read, who don't know what to believe, and don't have the first clue what to think about what the professional peloton members do or think. We're swaying in the breeze, and if the only tangible things we see are wild conspiracy theory after wild conspiracy theory (I exaggerate, but this place sometimes feels like it), it becomes at least somewhat believable after awhile. Seeing someone who is inside the highest levels of the sport, and one of the highest-profile figures of anti-doping in the sport, come on here and defend himself in a reasoned and clear way goes a long way to making me hopeful.

Of course I take things with a grain of salt (yes, I feel like people in pro cycling have lied before), but everything that's been said makes sense to me. Of course I wanna hear more, as everyone here clearly does from the non-stop peppering of questions, but I want to at least note that in the atmosphere of 'give us moremoremore' that I feel in this thread, I am very happy to have read the interactions that have been put here already. So thanks.

I wish that other people in the highest levels of sport that deserve the abuse they'd get here (coughMcQuaidcough) would post here.

Major +1

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I appreciate the responses. It's certainly piqued my curiosity.

Ryder's TT depart time was 3:38. He TT'd for ~34 minutes, arriving around 4:12pm.

I've only ever seen footage of riders trying to escape the chaperones in the Tour, where it seems they grab them as soon as they finish the stage, so they can't go do something "special" or disappear entirely.

What's the process at the Giro? Do they really have the chaperone hang around until 6pm before the test is done? Is the rider allowed to go take a shower for 20 minutes?

The other thing is the stage testing protocol. Ryder was never tested when he took the leader's jersey, except for the last stage. Is that normal?

ETA:
When did you receive Ryder's values - do you have to request them or are all rider's values sent to the team automatically?
Were you there to celebrate Ryder's win with the team, or were you knee deep in other race / team issues elsewhere?

If Ryder was tested twice in one day then it is likely that he had a visit from the vampires first thing in the morning - basically a random test done through the whereabouts system.
The later test was probably a normal post race test.

Also, while he was probably tested after every stage while in the leaders jersey it does not mean that all tests were blood, ie for the passport.
Various tests are done, some urine, some blood, some are tested for EPO, some (amazingly) are not.
And yes, the chaperones have the lovely job of waiting around until you go

 

[the big ring]

If Ryder was tested twice in one day then it is likely that he had a visit from the vampires first thing in the morning - basically a random test done through the whereabouts system.
The later test was probably a normal post race test.

Also, while he was probably tested after every stage while in the leaders jersey it does not mean that all tests were blood, ie for the passport.
Various tests are done, some urine, some blood, some are tested for EPO, some (amazingly) are not.

urine tests are used for passport values. all tests conducted are fed into the passport. my understanding is all test results are fed into ADAMs and processed from there.

JV did mention the AM test was done at 7am.

 

[Catwhoorg]

Let me take a stab at that one:

The Riders (under the watchful eye of the Chaperones), have to meet media and podium commitments before reporting to the Doping station.

By the time the Podium photos etc are done it could easily be quite late on the final day.

The detailed list under the WADA guidelines are:
Participation in a victory ceremony;
Fulfillment of media commitments;
Competing in further Competitions;
Performing a warm down;
Obtaining necessary medical treatment;
Locating a representative and/or interpreter;
Obtaining photo identification;
Any other exceptional circumstances which may be justified, and which
shall be documented.

Obviously not all valid for cycling. A good example of the bold would be say the Olympic swimming, where sometimes the swimmers compete very close together in different disciplines.

Leaders are typically tested each day, but not necessarily blood tests, and certainly not necessarily enough blood to carry out ABP testing. Urine tests outnumber blood tests for in competition testing.

Additionally even if blood is taken, sometimes they (the testing organization) want to examine whole blood, and sometimes just serum. These go into different types of tubes and a serum test sample cannot be used for ABP means.

You simply cannot justify taking sufficient blood samples, to carry out all the testing ((2 serums + 2-3EDTA) 4-5 tubes, with a minimum of 19 cc), on the leader every day (and rest day) of a GT.
If someone were to lead from the first day, 21+ days at 19+ cc/day thats in excess of 400 cc of whole blood taken.

Thats basically taking a unit of blood. It would significantly affect performance.

 

[Netserk]

@ JV

How big is the whole budget for Garmin-Sharp, and how much of that is spend on riders payroll?

 

[JV1973]

I appreciate the responses. It's certainly piqued my curiosity.

Ryder's TT depart time was 3:38. He TT'd for ~34 minutes, arriving around 4:12pm.

I've only ever seen footage of riders trying to escape the chaperones in the Tour, where it seems they grab them as soon as they finish the stage, so they can't go do something "special" or disappear entirely.

What's the process at the Giro? Do they really have the chaperone hang around until 6pm before the test is done? Is the rider allowed to go take a shower for 20 minutes?

The other thing is the stage testing protocol. Ryder was never tested when he took the leader's jersey, except for the last stage. Is that normal?

ETA:
When did you receive Ryder's values - do you have to request them or are all rider's values sent to the team automatically?
Were you there to celebrate Ryder's win with the team, or were you knee deep in other race / team issues elsewhere?

You are taking me way too literally. I wouldn't have known he finished at 4:12, unless I looked it up. Maybe we a miscomunicating slightly because I'm trying to show points and you want precision that I'm not giving because I'm trying to sort through the questions quickly (I have a day job!)

Anyhow, if he finished at 4:12, he would be immediately accompanied by a chaperone that is not allowed to let Ryder leave his line of sight. he has 1 hour to give the sample. usually, it would be podium appearance, a few interviews, then anti-doping. So, the sample was probably given just before 5pm. This is SOP at all races.

Now, imagine he did run away from the chaperone and quickly infuse 1L of saline (almost impossible, as he's be DQ'd on violating WADA rules, plus a 1L saline infusion takes a while)...but, let's imagine he did this. This would skew the hematocrit and Hb, but it would not change the percentage of retics. So, you would STILL have an odd looking profile with a huge drop in retics, IF a blood bag was transfused post AM test but pr race. The example provided earlier is an example of just this.

The values are not sent to the team. This violates medical privacy laws. They are posted on the athlete's ADAMS web page. Ryder gave me permission and his password, as all my riders have.

 

[thehog]

I'm not sure why Aschenden would have been so under informed. I can tell you with absolute certainty that WADA was well aware of micro dosing and IV EPO use in 2003. It took some time to perfect new testing methods and timing protocols after this info was given to them, so there would be a lag. But Aschenden not knowing about this in 2010 is very odd.

No, I don't think there is such a thing that is evading the testers, RIGHT NOW. that doesn't mean in 2 yrs time that won't change. It just means that 2012 was a good year for anti-doping in cycling.

People have misinterpreted events. Aschenden was well aware of micro-dosing. In fact he performed his own tests by injecting tests athletes with a micro-dosage.

What Aschenden was referring to was that it was his surprise that the passport program was easily beat by micro-dosing. He already knew you could pass the EPO test using small dosages directly into the vein.

http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/cycling/news/story?id=5222488

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/26/sports/cycling/26micro.html

 

[JV1973]

Major +1

Thanks to both of you. As I've said to many people, cycling is not nearly as bad as you think these days, but it used to be worse than you can imagine.

The big conspiracy theories I see here nowadays are far from real. the ones I used to see getting flamed 10 years ago were dead accurate.

 

[Netserk]

You are taking me way too literally. I wouldn't have known he finished at 4:12, unless I looked it up. Maybe we a miscomunicating slightly because I'm trying to show points and you want precision that I'm not giving because I'm trying to sort through the questions quickly (I have a day job!)

Anyhow, if he finished at 4:12, he would be immediately accompanied by a chaperone that is not allowed to let Ryder leave his line of sight. he has 1 hour to give the sample. usually, it would be podium appearance, a few interviews, then anti-doping. So, the sample was probably given just before 5pm. This is SOP at all races.

Now, imagine he did run away from the chaperone and quickly infuse 1L of saline (almost impossible, as he's be DQ'd on violating WADA rules, plus a 1L saline infusion takes a while)...but, let's imagine he did this. This would skew the hematocrit and Hb, but it would not change the percentage of retics. So, you would STILL have an odd looking profile with a huge drop in retics, IF a blood bag was transfused post AM test but pr race. The example provided earlier is an example of just this.

The values are not sent to the team. This violates medical privacy laws. They are posted on the athlete's ADAMS web page. Ryder gave me permission and his password, as all my riders have.

Out of curiosity how many test results is that (across the whole year) for your riders (and what is the range ex: 20-40)? How many tests across the whole year do you think is a sufficient amount?

 

[JV1973]

I need to answer some Q's on the other thread directed at me. I also need to go get work done. So, I am sorry if I missed your question.

 

[the big ring]

You are taking me way too literally. I wouldn't have known he finished at 4:12, unless I looked it up. Maybe we a miscomunicating slightly because I'm trying to show points and you want precision that I'm not giving because I'm trying to sort through the questions quickly (I have a day job!)

It looks that way - I am instead trying to paint a realistic picture in my mind, as well as get an understanding of what happens, how and when.

One of my favourite memories is the first time I won a TTT with 3 guys from my club. There was this anticipation as other teams finished then the inevitable wait while they worked out how quick we had all gone. Sharing that as a member of a team was indescribable - easily as enjoyable as any solo win I have had.

What was that like? It must have been so amazing to win your first team GT and share in the excitement and buzz - the crowds, podium ceremony, etc, etc.

 

[Gregga]

It just means that 2012 was a good year for anti-doping in cycling.

All your riders gave you their ADAMS password... that sounds good !

But... in July 2012 we saw a black/blue train we hadn't seen for years and 3 spanish climbers far ahead the other countries riders.

So I'm not totally convinced 2012 was such a good year.

Just hope you're right because this year's Giro was pretty beautiful.

 

[Caruut]

You simply cannot justify taking sufficient blood samples, to carry out all the testing ((2 serums + 2-3EDTA) 4-5 tubes, with a minimum of 19 cc), on the leader every day (and rest day) of a GT.
If someone were to lead from the first day, 21+ days at 19+ cc/day thats in excess of 400 cc of whole blood taken.

Thats basically taking a unit of blood. It would significantly affect performance.

Cycling already has an answer to this problem. Let each rider have a blood bag for the race re-infuse new blood after a control. Doping to the rescue.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

urine tests are used for passport values. all tests conducted are fed into the passport. my understanding is all test results are fed into ADAMs and processed from there.

JV did mention the AM test was done at 7am.

Yes & no.
Without getting in to too much technicalities I was trying to show that the system is not as consistent as you are making it.
Ie - if you want consistent results then do the exact same procedure at the exact same time of day......of course the cheating athletes would have a field day if they knew that, hence why different tests at different times which can lead to variances.
But no - not all tests end up on the ABP.

 

[ToreBear]

Thank you JV, and everybody else. These last couple of pages have really been enlightening.

 

[131313]

Thanks to both of you. As I've said to many people, cycling is not nearly as bad as you think these days, but it used to be worse than you can imagine.

The big conspiracy theories I see here nowadays are far from real. the ones I used to see getting flamed 10 years ago were dead accurate.

Just so you know, I'm generally on your side on this stuff. Generally. But look up at your quote above, and realize that throughout history (not just cycling, but history in general) how often the above has been said, then repeated 10 years post. That's the reason you're always going to run into a certain degree of skepticism. History seems to have that nasty history of repeating itself, and until there's not only a cultural shift but a dramatic change in the institutions, any "change" is more like an ebb and flow, "ebb" being the current season, "flow" being last year's RS Team at ToCali (which wasn't that long ago).

Making changes at the micro-level is good, but it's not enough. Starting a break-away league with Bruyneel doesn't really seem like a good option, either (seriously...WTF?). So, going forward how do you plan on helping to implement change at the macro level? You're one of the few in a position to help facilitate it. I don't think doing it in "secret" or taking a "this needs to be done behind the scenes" approach is going to install much confidence, given that transparency within the sports' various governing bodies has been so lacking. So, I'm really curious as to your thoughts on this part of the equation.

 

[RichWalk]

Making changes at the micro-level is good, but it's not enough. Starting a break-away league with Bruyneel doesn't really seem like a good option, either (seriously...WTF?). So, going forward how to plan on helping to implement change at the macro level? You're one of the few in a position to help facilitate it. I don't think doing it in "secret" or taking a "this needs to be done behind the scenes" approach isn't going to install much confidence, given that transparency within the sports' various governing bodies has been so lacking. So, I'm really curious as to your thoughts on this part of the equation.

Excellent post and what many of us would like to know, change certainly within cycling needs to come from within, as a proponent of clean cycling JV has to be seen as a leader of this change for his stance to be viable.

 

[Froome19]

JV, just wondering about your involvement in the breakaway league?

If you were aware of Johan Bruyneel's involvement in doping and all the corruption surrounding him.. then why were you so willing to co-operate with him when pushing for the breakaway league?

It would seem you were advocating Bruyneel and would be in a roundabout way supporting him and even it could be said, Lance, if Garmin are supposedly so clean and attempt to distance themselves so far from doping, then why were you trying to put yourself in the same boat as one of the main men in the business?

 

[jonny testaronny]

More Thanks to JV

JV, thanks for taking the time to post. I appreciate your insight. As others have said, try the ignore button for some of the members.
It seems you can never make them happy!

As a fairly non-vocal (maybe it's because I don't think I know what I'm talking about) clinic reader, I might speak for a significant silent minority (majority?) when I say that this whole exchange is extremely helpful and refreshing. ...Seeing someone who is inside the highest levels of the sport, and one of the highest-profile figures of anti-doping in the sport, come on here and defend himself in a reasoned and clear way goes a long way to making me hopeful.

+1000, JV, including the ignore list. Some people only use new information to confirm what they already believe, going through all sorts of mental contortions to refute or ignore anything that contradicts it. It's as true of people who see dopers on every podium as it is of those who still will not acknowledge what Armstrong did to win seven Tours. From a regular lurker's perspective, it's no use arguing with these folks--only clots up the forum with useless verbiage, making it harder to find the informative & insightful stuff.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

I need to answer some Q's on the other thread directed at me. I also need to go get work done. So, I am sorry if I missed your question.

Mr Vaughters,2 questions. Do you use special shampoo for your sideburns or do you oil it once in a month? Will epo or hgh help me in having a thick sideburns?...is that 3?

 

[will10]

Another big thank you to JV for persevering on this forum, some really enlightening posts once again.

 

[Kretch]

Major +1

Major +1 as well. JV, you are doing a magnificent job under amazingly complex circumstances.