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Katusha Anti-doping

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hfer07 said:
Katusha just put in practice what is a proven formula to correct a bad behavior, like in any judicial system around the world: you commit a crime, you pay for it.
I personally find that the only way to make a cyclist avoid the temptation of seeking doping is to penalize him where it hurts the most: FINANCIALLY -how?

Isn't this the same strategy that the Pro Tour was using where if caught a rider had to forfeit a years salary along with be excluded from racing for 2 years and from Pro Tour races for 4 years? As far as I know they have yet to collect from any of the riders that were caught since this program was implemented.

Katusha's plan is not very well thought out. 5 years of salary? Riders can't even get a sponsor to sign a contract for more than 3 years at a time and that is usually the max for a top rider.
 
Apr 19, 2009
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Colom suspended

Colom is out for EPO. He did not sign the 5-year-payback-stuff though. If b-samples of Colom and Pfannberger are positive, will there be team sanctions?

I remember reading something about team sanctions if two or more riders test positive within a certain time-window. But I can't remember what came of it.

Anybody care to enlighten me?

On another note, I would think this violates ASO's requirement that no team shall give the Tour a bad image.

Katusha will not be allowed to start in Monaco. You heard it here first :)
 
Pretty obvious reason why Colom refused to sign the new charter then. McEwen also said Joan Horrach refused to sign, the same Horrach formerly of that model team of integrity, Milanesa-MSS. All too obvious really. Agree with Jon Jungel, Katusha out of Tour.
 
Angliru said:
Isn't this the same strategy that the Pro Tour was using where if caught a rider had to forfeit a years salary along with be excluded from racing for 2 years and from Pro Tour races for 4 years? As far as I know they have yet to collect from any of the riders that were caught since this program was implemented.

Katusha's plan is not very well thought out. 5 years of salary? Riders can't even get a sponsor to sign a contract for more than 3 years at a time and that is usually the max for a top rider.
Did Basso wait 4 years to ride the Giro?

Those are just "Alibi" statements to help the Team or the Sport, but they are hypocritical and stupid.
 
Jun 9, 2009
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the giro is not a PROTOUR race...just like the vuelta and the tour.
it's a shame that colom did this, because I agree when you say that Katyusha will be refused to ride the Tour, couldn't he have thought of that??
 
gregod said:
...here are probably a lot of riders doping, but we have to decide which side we want to err on: caution or punishment....

After your post I have to wonder if you really pay any attention to cycling? As we stand now, the biggest problem in the sport is doping, and the biggest problem with that is the amount of false negatives from tests. Riders are given an incredible amount of leeway and benefit of doubt. The comparison of false negatives to false positives is off the chart. Bernard Kohl is the perfect example, he took over 200 tests, said in over 100 of them he was blatantly doped and should have been positive, and several more tests where he was on Cera, with it's makers, that came up negative. Do you honestly, truly think that some of the positive tests we've seen are because of poor lab work, and the accused athletes were actually clean?

I'm not trying to invalidate your testing experience, but you really need to take a look what's going on, and some of the many threads and posts on doping we've discusses over the last few months.
 
Apr 20, 2009
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i hear you, but...

Alpe d'Huez said:
After your post I have to wonder if you really pay any attention to cycling?

i do pay attention to cycling. i don't pay much attention to doping. whether or not they engage in "illegal" practices, they still do things beyond the reach of most people: oxygen tents (illegal in italy only), custom bikes at a whim, on-call massages, etc., etc. Doping is just an extension of the same mentality. it should be stopped for the riders' health where appropriate, but it is human nature to be always looking for an edge.

my enjoyment of cycling is based on what i can do on a bike, not on what the next winner of the tour can do.
 
May 1, 2009
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gregod said:
...custom bikes at a whim, on-call massages, etc., etc. Doping is just an extension of the same mentality...

I think that's a bit of a stretch. On-call massages are the same mentality as doping? These riders are professionals. That's like saying a guy who works in an office who is given a stapler is basically only one step away from embezzlement.

gregod said:
my enjoyment of cycling is based on what i can do on a bike, not on what the next winner of the tour can do.

which begs the question, why are you participating in a discussion about professional racing?
 
Apr 20, 2009
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with all due respect...

boalio said:
I think that's a bit of a stretch. On-call massages are the same mentality as doping? These riders are professionals. That's like saying a guy who works in an office who is given a stapler is basically only one step away from embezzlement.

which begs the question, why are you participating in a discussion about professional racing?

massages in and of themselves are not the same mentallity as doping. this was an example of a pattern- that is why it was included in a short list of the many entitlements that pros enjoy. therefore, when looked at in the context of the numerous advantages that professionals have over recreational riders it shows the nature of the pro athlete is to always be looking for a competitive advantage. which was the point.

your analogy also falls flat in that a stapler is a piece of equipment necessary to the work. maybe one can use a paper clip, but some sort of fastener is needed. like tubulars or clinchers. massages are not essential. i never get them, yet i manage to get on the bike everyday. a more apropos analogy might be the same guy in the office with access to insider information. having this information is not illegal. using this information in the course of business is not illegal. however, if he can control access to it to his advantage, or if it will move him up the corporate ladder or gain him financially, then it becomes part of a pattern of potentially bad behavior. also, not a perfect analogy, but perhaps more of a parallel.

as for why i participate here: i did not say that i didn't enjoy pro cycling. i said that my enjoyment is based more on my experience of cycling. whether or not professionals dope is irrelevant to my experience, because they already do many things, such as the oxygen tents, on-demand bikes, massages, and many other things that are completely beyond my ken.

cheers
 
gregod said:
i do pay attention to cycling. i don't pay much attention to doping. whether or not they engage in "illegal" practices, they still do things beyond the reach of most people: oxygen tents (illegal in italy only), custom bikes at a whim, on-call massages, etc., etc. Doping is just an extension of the same mentality. it should be stopped for the riders' health where appropriate, but it is human nature to be always looking for an edge.

my enjoyment of cycling is based on what i can do on a bike, not on what the next winner of the tour can do.
But Doping is a real hugeeee extension from oxygen tents, custom bikes and massages

As far as I am concern, I learned that in this Forum, the oxygen tents don't come even close to increasing the crit (3-4%) to what the doping does (10-20%). Again I am not expert but nowdays it can not be used as an excused by riders to increase the crit. And please sombody correct me if I made a mistake in saying this.
Thanks.
 
Mar 10, 2009
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Escarabajo said:
But Doping is a real hugeeee extension from oxygen tents, custom bikes and massages

What about those guys that put some menthol or Vicks (or what ever it is) in a couple of cotton balls and stick them up their nose, is that doping? Then there's the breath-right strips people put on their nose to breath better, ban them?

Inquiry minds want to know. (aimed at gregod)
 
Apr 20, 2009
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you are right...

Escarabajo said:
But Doping is a real hugeeee extension from oxygen tents, custom bikes and massages

i am not saying doping should not be illegal or that it is not different from oxygen tents, etc. i just don't get so exorcised about it because for me many of the legal things that pros do are beyond the reach of the average person. doping should remain illegal not because it is cheating, but because it is dangerous. cheating is an arbitrary standard. health is not. doping would not be cheating if it were legal, but it would still be dangerous. when the UCI set the weight limit on bikes, it was done with safety in mind; knowing that if they did not set a lower limit some rider would push the limit either of his own volition or at the behest of a sponsor or manager in order to gain an advantage while compromising his safety.

as for katusha's contract change, while well-intentioned, it is fraught with potential for abuse and doesn't recognize the fact that competitors will dope regardless of the penalty. make it a death penalty offence and somebody will still get caught doping.

the UCI and WADA are doing their jobs as well as possible given realitstic constraints to stem the problem of doping in sport. unfortunately, cycling seems to bear the brunt of the criticism in spite of the fact that doping is no more endemic to it that football, rugby, american football, baseball, track and field, and so on.

it seems to me that the people here that are really angry at doping in cycling are unintentionally doing a disservice to this sport. while i applaud their earnestness in wanting to rid cycling of cheating, this navel-gazing is doing more damage than good by making sponsors shy away from cycling. personally, i think we should all be over at the football forums pointing the finger at them because that is where the real money is, so that is where the real systematic doping is going on. i read in l'equipe that the vast number of names in the puerto folder were footballers, but for some strange reason all of the attention is on cycling.
 
Apr 20, 2009
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to elchingon

ElChingon said:
What about those guys that put some menthol or Vicks (or what ever it is) in a couple of cotton balls and stick them up their nose, is that doping? Then there's the breath-right strips people put on their nose to breath better, ban them? Inquiry minds want to know. (aimed at gregod)

perhaps i was unclear. i was not calling for the banning of anything. i was not saying that massages and doping are equal. my point is that doping in the pros does not figure in my enjoyment of the sport because they already do many things that i do not or cannot.

professionals by their very nature push limits. doping is that limit. massages are near the bottom of a list of things that are inaccesible to the average person. but why is doping the limit? one reason is because it is dangerous.
 
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ElChingon said:
So where do the cotton balls soaked in menthol and breath-right strips rank?

it is not my concern, nor related to this thread. originally, this was about the katusha's onerous contract change and doping.

why do you ask?
 
gregod said:
i am not saying doping should not be illegal or that it is not different from oxygen tents, etc. i just don't get so exorcised about it because for me many of the legal things that pros do are beyond the reach of the average person. doping should remain illegal not because it is cheating, but because it is dangerous. cheating is an arbitrary standard. health is not. doping would not be cheating if it were legal, but it would still be dangerous. when the UCI set the weight limit on bikes, it was done with safety in mind; knowing that if they did not set a lower limit some rider would push the limit either of his own volition or at the behest of a sponsor or manager in order to gain an advantage while compromising his safety.

as for katusha's contract change, while well-intentioned, it is fraught with potential for abuse and doesn't recognize the fact that competitors will dope regardless of the penalty. make it a death penalty offence and somebody will still get caught doping.

the UCI and WADA are doing their jobs as well as possible given realitstic constraints to stem the problem of doping in sport. unfortunately, cycling seems to bear the brunt of the criticism in spite of the fact that doping is no more endemic to it that football, rugby, american football, baseball, track and field, and so on.

it seems to me that the people here that are really angry at doping in cycling are unintentionally doing a disservice to this sport. while i applaud their earnestness in wanting to rid cycling of cheating, this navel-gazing is doing more damage than good by making sponsors shy away from cycling. personally, i think we should all be over at the football forums pointing the finger at them because that is where the real money is, so that is where the real systematic doping is going on. i read in l'equipe that the vast number of names in the puerto folder were footballers, but for some strange reason all of the attention is on cycling.
I respect your opinion but I disagree in the part that the UCI is doing the maximum to clean the sport. They are not doing near 50% of what they should be doing. Look at how they have managed the riders that are speaking out about doping. Why they want to quiet them or lower them to the level of "donkeys". We could go on for hours about the problems with the UCI but it is not the topic of this thread and has been already discussed many times in this forum.
Thanks.
 
Apr 20, 2009
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Escarabajo said:
I disagree in the part that the UCI is doing the maximum to clean the sport. They are not doing near 50% of what they should be doing. Look at how they have managed the riders that are speaking out about doping.

you are right. i stand corrected.
 
May 9, 2009
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Escarabajo said:
But Doping is a real hugeeee extension from oxygen tents, custom bikes and massages...

Perhaps. But it could also be argued that "doping" isn't a hugeeee extension from eating. Or more specifically, eating certain "foods" and taking certain vitamins. Someone has drawn an artificial lines about what is allowed to put into one's body. Or put back in his body (since putting one's own blood back into his body is also banned). Sometimes substances once banned are allowed again, or vice versa. Various reasons for where the line is drawn are put forth, including "fairness" (the mysterious "super responder" theory) or "health," (and yet the most famous "super responder" suspect has somehow managed to beat cancer to dominate, and is so healthy he somehow fathered a child with his once sterile single testicle).

Sure, a lot of that last paragraph sounds silly. But those are the sort of rationalizations athletes will make, and why we'll never eliminate "doping" (unless we simply change the definition of that term to not include the things athletes are doing: presto, problem solved).
 
Jun 10, 2009
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not guilty as usual

And yes again, the poor rider is not guilty, the methodology is wrong... bla bla bla...
So disappointing.
I really loose my faith in cycling today. I feel disgusted and I love it so much though...
I don't know what you guys feel but well it comes to the point where I don't want to wear any Pro team jersey when I am going riding...
I know, I am not very optimistic...