Kenny Williams

[Oldman]

you cannot win on water. it's f---ing laughable how much stuff these guys use. it makes kicking their *** even more pleasant when you do win.

+1. At Masters Natz 2 years ago there was definitely a group of guys going faster and more aggresively than the rest of the pack. They didn't all have the same AMD/Disco affiliation so I was puzzled trying to sort out race strategy on the fly...until I saw a familiar face gesturing to the rider on my wheel during an attack to shut me down. It was Pettyjohn. Don't know if he was "coaching" these guys back home but they all seemed to come from Cal or Colorado. Drove me ****'n crazy when they let the race winner roll away after I sat up. He wasn't wearing their jersey either but they all had a group "hug" afterward.
I'm not accusing them of anything but association and tactics were weird. Other Cal riders were less generous in their assessment of the situation. No, there was no testing.

 

[usedtobefast]

+1. At Masters Natz 2 years ago there was definitely a group of guys going faster and more aggresively than the rest of the pack. They didn't all have the same AMD/Disco affiliation so I was puzzled trying to sort out race strategy on the fly...until I saw a familiar face gesturing to the rider on my wheel during an attack to shut me down. It was Pettyjohn. Don't know if he was "coaching" these guys back home but they all seemed to come from Cal or Colorado. Drove me ****'n crazy when they let the race winner roll away after I sat up. He wasn't wearing their jersey either but they all had a group "hug" afterward.
I'm not accusing them of anything but association and tactics were weird. Other Cal riders were less generous in their assessment of the situation. No, there was no testing.

my early days of masters racing were eye opening back in the day. you would look at a guy and think, no way he can climb with me. then you find yourself surrounded with more guys like that. fast up hill and fat. it was
a joke, still is.

 

[350Watts]

my early days of masters racing were eye opening back in the day. you would look at a guy and think, no way he can climb with me. then you find yourself surrounded with more guys like that. fast up hill and fat. it was
a joke, still is.

Yeah we have some regional Masters crit racers that can drop some fairly good Pro's on climbs in 5 hour RR's.

 

[fatandfast]

Yeah we have some regional Masters crit racers that can drop some fairly good Pro's on climbs in 5 hour RR's.

Gerital and a good nights sleep. Activia yogurt for breakfast.

 

[131313]

this Country Singing 'Johnson'

I don't know if that epithet is one used for all Americans, or just those with questionable hair styles. Either way, I find it pretty funny. And, as an American, that's my prerogative.

Bad taste in music aside, I'm surprised that this isn't being discussed more. I guess on some level it's more interesting to discuss what Lance is eating for breakfast.

For some perspective, Williams isn't 'just a Masters racer', he's a USAC-certified coach, he runs a prominent local cycling team and he also competes at the elite level locally and nationally.

He's stood on the podium of elite national championship events, and more importantly, has competed against a long list of budding and current professionals. This sends a pretty damaging message to those who are competing in the Pacific Northwest, and to anyone competing at the grassroots level anywhere in an attempt to reach the highest level of the sport.

This is where it begins, people; both the opportunities to reach the highest level of the sport, and the big brick of reality that some of your competitors are willing to dope. In other words, it's a pretty big deal.

I realize it's more fun to pen words on the internet than to try to make a difference. Outrage is easier than action. I'm going to make a suggestion: take some of the time you waste on here talking about Brad Wiggins, Lance and Jonathan Vaughters and spend some of it talking to, writing and cajoling your local governing body to do some testing at the local level.

Money is obviously an issue, but even a small amount of testing in areas which have a lot of quality racing, say California, the PNW, and wherever else there is a high concentration of racers, would go along way. At least the threat of testing would be there.

To the Euros out there, realize that the junior racing scene here isn't big enough to support it's own fields, except at national events which honestly aren't that big a deal. In other words, an up and coming junior has to compete against guys like Mr. Williams in order to get to the next level.

I think this is a little more important than Lemond's lawsuit, even if it's not as salacious. And I'd implore folks who are in a position to do something to act, rather than talk. It's fine to beat your chest about how you believe in fair competition--it's another to try and do something about it besides declare your outrage.

I'm really hoping this will kick people in the a$$ a little.

 

[Oldman]

To the Euros out there, realize that the junior racing scene here isn't big enough to support it's own fields, except at national events which honestly aren't that big a deal. In other words, an up and coming junior has to compete against guys like Mr. Williams in order to get to the next level.

I think this is a little more important than Lemond's lawsuit, even if it's not as salacious. And I'd implore folks who are in a position to do something to act, rather than talk. It's fine to beat your chest about how you believe in fair competition--it's another to try and do something about it besides declare your outrage.

I'm really hoping this will kick people in the a$$ a little.

First suggestion is keep talking to your juniors. Testing vs. attitudes is widely debated on this forum. Being a valid friend of the up and comers is not expensive and you can do it now.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

@131313:

And it would go a long ways if you would stop being anonymous. Add your name and credentials to your fine words and admonitions. There's no shame in being a pro who can stand up and be counted amongst those against doping.

Want to really make a difference? Name names. Call out those that are cheating and doping and dealing and destroying the sport we all love. The Kenny Williams of this world wouldn't exist if you took a stand and called them out on the start line of every race they appeared in. Pull out! Stand there, point fingers and tell the crowd that you won't race against a known doper and then go home.

Talk about a message that would change perceptions and lives...

John Swanson
http://www.bikephysics.com

 

[filipo]

@131313:

And it would go a long ways if you would stop being anonymous. Add your name and credentials to your fine words and admonitions. There's no shame in being a pro who can stand up and be counted amongst those against doping.

Want to really make a difference? Name names. Call out those that are cheating and doping and dealing and destroying the sport we all love. The Kenny Williams of this world wouldn't exist if you took a stand and called them out on the start line of every race they appeared in. Pull out! Stand there, point fingers and tell the crowd that you won't race against a known doper and then go home.

Talk about a message that would change perceptions and lives...

John Swanson
http://www.bikephysics.com

Well that's a bit of a problem, isn't it -- Williams wasn't a "known" doper until he got popped. If you accuse someone of doping, or anything else for that matter, you need proof of your accusation. Otherwise you're asking for trouble. (Maybe that's why people find it easier to shout on internet forums than to contribute useful action, 131313.) As I mentioned earlier, I've heard from a number of people that a local pro is on the sauce. But does that mean I "know" he's a doper? Hardly. And me saying so without proof would 1) make me look like a donkeyhole, 2) open me up to legal action, and 3) open me up to a solid ***-kicking by him and his friends.

 

[Race Radio]

I don't know if that epithet is one used for all Americans, or just those with questionable hair styles. Either way, I find it pretty funny. And, as an American, that's my prerogative.

Bad taste in music aside, I'm surprised that this isn't being discussed more. I guess on some level it's more interesting to discuss what Lance is eating for breakfast.

For some perspective, Williams isn't 'just a Masters racer', he's a USAC-certified coach, he runs a prominent local cycling team and he also competes at the elite level locally and nationally.

He's stood on the podium of elite national championship events, and more importantly, has competed against a long list of budding and current professionals. This sends a pretty damaging message to those who are competing in the Pacific Northwest, and to anyone competing at the grassroots level anywhere in an attempt to reach the highest level of the sport.

This is where it begins, people; both the opportunities to reach the highest level of the sport, and the big brick of reality that some of your competitors are willing to dope. In other words, it's a pretty big deal.

I realize it's more fun to pen words on the internet than to try to make a difference. Outrage is easier than action. I'm going to make a suggestion: take some of the time you waste on here talking about Brad Wiggins, Lance and Jonathan Vaughters and spend some of it talking to, writing and cajoling your local governing body to do some testing at the local level.

Money is obviously an issue, but even a small amount of testing in areas which have a lot of quality racing, say California, the PNW, and wherever else there is a high concentration of racers, would go along way. At least the threat of testing would be there.

To the Euros out there, realize that the junior racing scene here isn't big enough to support it's own fields, except at national events which honestly aren't that big a deal. In other words, an up and coming junior has to compete against guys like Mr. Williams in order to get to the next level.

I think this is a little more important than Lemond's lawsuit, even if it's not as salacious. And I'd implore folks who are in a position to do something to act, rather than talk. It's fine to beat your chest about how you believe in fair competition--it's another to try and do something about it besides declare your outrage.

I'm really hoping this will kick people in the a$$ a little.

Great post.

 

[chase196126]

I completely agree with 131313. How many people already assume on principle that professional cyclists dope? When cases like this come out all those beliefs are backed up, all the way down to the amateur level! How many sponsors have been lost because of doping scandals?

Mr. Williams actions alone anger me beyond words without ever having met the man. I cannot imagine how I would feel if he were a local racer .

I also agree with the point about educating young up and coming riders. I will be racing my first season as a pro next year at 19, and I hope that I can be a role model for the junior riders in our area (Utah). I want to make it clear to them that they absolutely should not, and do not need to touch performance enhancing drugs to reach a high level. Making clean "cool" to these younger riders is the best way to keep them away from PEDs and other cheating.

 

[hulkgogan]

I know Kenny a bit (I don't hate him) and raced against him in the late 90s and he was very good in crits but totally beatable in road races. Fast sprint, but not amazing and raced totally negatively with that dumbass team of wannabes he had pulling back everything for a bunch sprint. He was taking ghetto stuff at best: DHEA, pseudo ephrine, maybe TEST - and frankly that gives me hope cause it didn't make him immortal - I could drop him on a climb. He raced a lot so he was prolly doping for consistency and to beat tiredness.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Very insightful post 13131. Especially the part about how Lemond's lawsuit is important, but so is this. This is the type of conversation we had way back when the site started, and as the clinic was formed, before it was dominated by discussions on Lance. That's what Doc is referring to us talking about in the past.

I'm too out of the direct loop, but pretty much all the posts by Helmut, RR, Oldman, Used, etc. are correct from what I can gather. And we're only talking about Masters here. I honestly don't have any facts or evidence when looking at even Cat 1's, but I'm also not naive.

John brings up a good point, but it's hard to walk that line, especially if you currently are a racer or coach. It's one thing for me to post my name/identity - and anyone who digs at all can find out who I am, my name, job, town, experience, etc. But I'm also almost 50 and haven't raced in many years, and never will again on any level. If I were a Cat 1 struggling to get by, or a Master out there having a go at it, I would be reluctant to make really deep waves.

If that story about Len Pettyjohn is completely true, I'm going to be a bit shocked, or at least disappointed, as he was someone who spoke out somewhat vocally to VN a few years back, siding with Lemond about doping taking over cycling in the 90's and wrecking the sport.

 

[131313]

@131313:

And it would go a long ways if you would stop being anonymous. Add your name and credentials to your fine words and admonitions. There's no shame in being a pro who can stand up and be counted amongst those against doping.

There's no shame at all, and that's certainly not why I chose to remain anonymous. It's not the admonitions from my fellow pros I'm trying to avoid, it's the inevitable sh!tstorm from posters on this forum. I've had close friends, teammates and myself all implicated as dopers on this forum, so it would almost seem self-serving get on here and say "I'm clean". At least people now know I'm not here promoting my own 'brand'.

As far as calling people out? Well, now we're at the heart of the issue. There's what I 'know' and what I 'believe. I could rattle off 10 names of guys I 'believe' to be juiced, but I don't 'know'. And while I believe in fair competition, I also believe in due process. In the case of those that I 'knew', I passed my information (non-anonymously) to people in a position to do something about it. In both cases those riders were suspended. I'm not taking credit, since I'm sure others ratted them out too, but my point is that there's no thin blue line where I'm concerned.

I've been outspoken to those who can most make a difference: promoters, team directors and people within our sports governing body. I don't see the usefulness in ratting people out on the internet based on suspicion.

What to do? Well, I'm a believer in the adage that some will cheat no matter what, some will never cheat, and some will cheat if it's easy. Most fit somewhere on that continuum, hopefully with a bell-shaped distribution weighted towards 'not cheating'. At the local and regional elite level, there's practically no testing. I made it from 5 to Pro not only without being tested, but without threat of testing! There may have been mention of it in a couple of race bibles, maybe? That's pretty ridiculous in my book.

As far as the effectiveness of testing? Well, this isn't Europe, there's not the money or organization to thwart testing. Sure, some will still beat the test, but there's not the money to make doping that sophisticated. Even a little bit of random testing at a few events, and for some randomly selected top riders would at least provide some disincentive to dope, and catch a few cheaters in the process. Right now it's totally jour sans. Talking to younger riders and setting a good example is extremely important--but it's not enough.

And we're only talking about Masters here. I honestly don't have any facts or evidence when looking at even Cat 1's, but I'm also not naive.

We aren't though. A quick look at this "country-singing Johnson" shows that he's really not a 'Master', he a local elite guy, competing against (and beating) up-and-comers and budding pros. http://wsbaracing.com/people/1244/results

The irony is that if he hadn't done a national masters event, he likely never would have been tested, which is kinda my point. The same is true for many 'masters', who do much/most of their racing at the elite level.

 

[Oldman]

There's no shame at all...

I've been outspoken to those who can most make a difference: promoters, team directors and people within our sports governing body. I don't see the usefulness in ratting people out on the internet based on suspicion.

What to do?....

It is difficult to call someone out. I don't "know" anything about the Masters I raced against and whether Pettyjohn was even actually involved. I did race against Coors Light and they were far from beacons of truth and light.
All of the riders constantly mentioned in the forum passed through USA Cycling during the Carmichael/Mainus era. There was alot of pressure to get results to maintain funding. Many juniors that were World's level riders quit when faced with the hard facts. They had integrity but saw no other response to their disappointment. Hopefully coaching has improved and temptations are discouraged so there isn't another generation of Tyler Hamilton's, etc.
As for KW's impact locally; I don't think he harmed any rider that had a legitimate shot at better things. Type A-achieve at all costs adults permeate this sport and people with shakey ethics will continue to make bad choices. Everyone is correct on the message it sends, however.

 

[biff bivatiewiecz]

A couple of years back at Raod Nat.s you could have heard a pin drop at the starting line when they said they'd be testing the top five finishers.....I think it was the only 40+ race I've done that didn't go from the gun......and all the fav's sat in the back and did nothing....

Doping in masters? O.....I'd say you bet and more then you'd think!

who came in 6th?

 

[Berzin]

Speaking out without solid evidence is your surest ticket to getting ostracized from the local scene.

Besides, nobody wants to hear it.

From what I see, my local cycling scene is like a group of high school cheerleaders. The better riders bask in the glory of their local escapades and admonish those who are not as good as them.

Those who aren't as good take the abuse heaped upon them by the local "heads of state" (and that's if they even condescend to speak to them in the first place) and dream of the day they can join "the club", where training ride hammerfests are judged by who did what. If their names ever happen to get mentioned in a positive light, then it's the first step to acceptance.

And once you're in "the club", you keep your mouth shut. And if you fall, you fall silently and alone.

The bottom line is, as a cyclist I think it would be beyond me to strap on the hat of investigative reporter and charge through my local peloton hoisting accusations onto any rider I personally deemed suspicious. This is where Lemond has gone astray, I believe.

As much as I understand where he's coming from, the reality is there is no person farther removed from the pro scene than Lemond. He's never driven a team car in a pro race, never worked as a director sportif and has no personal contact with any of the best riders of the last 15 years.

So from an unbiased view, one would have to ask the question-his expertise is derived from an age long before any of the modern doping techniques have been put in place. He is of another era, with no ties to the current state of affairs. And it surely does not help that he is a terrible public speaker.

He believes (as do I) that Armstrong's metamorphosis took place under the influence of a doping program, but all he has is hearsay, innuendo and conversations from second-hand sources. The actual tests he failed after the fact were not proof enough for either his fans or the powers that be because he is a cash cow in a time of great world-wide economic stress. He will have to definitely fail a test, either in or out of competition for any of the other accusations to stick. That's just how it is.

Lemond's actual involvement in the Floyd Landis case was that of an aggrieved party, not as an insider to the world of doping in pro cycling. And the deposition of Armstrong's wife was to me jumping the shark. I think Lemond has officially gone insane from his obsession to bring Armstrong down.

Getting back to Kenny Williams, he tested positive for stuff sold over the counter. Anything else is conjecture. Conjecture does more harm to the anti-doping cause than anything else. People coming out of the woodwork saying that he's been suspected of doping for years not only add nothing to the argument, but do it harm.

The fact that there are tons of races all across the US where there are minimal or no doping controls at all tells you one thing-regardless of suspicion, anyone willing to dope in domestic races can do so for years and never risk getting caught. That is the reality.

That most of these races are of inconsequential financial benefit to the winning riders means very little. I have never understood the correlation, when most PED's in the US are ingested by yuppies looking for an edge and aging baby-boomers looking for that lost fountain of youth.

 

[usedtobefast]

Speaking out without solid evidence...

...That most of these races are of inconsequential financial benefit to the winning riders means very little. I have never understood the correlation, when most PED's in the US are ingested by yuppies looking for an edge and aging baby-boomers looking for that lost fountain of youth.

well said Berz

 

[Oldman]

Speaking out without solid evidence ...

...That most of these races are of inconsequential financial benefit to the winning riders means very little. I have never understood the correlation, when most PED's in the US are ingested by yuppies looking for an edge and aging baby-boomers looking for that lost fountain of youth.

Yup. We still get to fight the fight, though.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Good post Berzin. That last paragraph really epitomizes it, and our society in many ways.

 

[Berzin]

Yup. We still get to fight the fight, though.

I agree, but let's fight it in an intelligent manner.

The problem I have with Lemond is how he is going about it. If he can afford high-priced attorneys to fight this Trek lawsuit he should be able to afford a competent PR firm to help him articulate his public anti-doping stance in a much more succinct and cohesive manner.

When I here him talk he reminds me of a punch-drunk fighter the way he rambles and loses focus.

The zeitgeist is clearly against Lemond on this one, and it has been from the beginning for two reasons-

1) He is taking on a hero who is worshiped all over the globe, a person whose cynical and mercenary persona is shielded from criticism because of the money and attention he brings to the sport.

2) His world-wide efforts for his cancer society and the effects it's had on people's lives has been blown out of any proportion, but he is deemed as a saint for his work. Therefore, beyond suspicion.

On the local level, I would hate to think how in the world we can educate the selfish, willfully ignorant, irrational and arrogant characters I know who dope, guys who put their health at risk and happily pass on their witch doctor's knowledge to the next generation who in turn take what is said as the gospel truth.

 

[Race Radio]

While Armstrong has done a great job spinning otherwise the reality is Greg seldom talks about Lance. The topics he takes on are some of the more critical the sport is facing. UCI incompetence, the enablers of the doping problem (Doctors, DS'), This are issues that need to be addressed.

While his delivery may be flawed the content of what he speaks is spot on. Greg remains very well connected in the sport. Many of the race directors, team management, journalist's and sponsors are from Lemond's era and many raced with or against Greg. The result is an extensive network of contents.

Back on topic, Berzin is spot on about Yuppies looking for the lost fountain of youth. The motivation for much of this is far beyond whatever small prize money there may be. The struggle to maintain athletic relevance as you lose your skills is a strong motivator.

 

[Kennf1]

IIf he can afford high-priced attorneys to fight this Trek lawsuit he should be able to afford a competent PR firm to help him articulate his public anti-doping stance in a much more succinct and cohesive manner.

Couldn't agree more, and I wish he'd done it 8 years ago before he ran afoul of the Armstrong PR machine. There are SO many things he could've done differently that would have boosted his image while at the same time advance the anti-doping cause.

 

[Hooptie]

Getting back to Kenny Williams, he tested positive for stuff sold over the counter. Anything else is conjecture. Conjecture does more harm to the anti-doping cause than anything else. People coming out of the woodwork saying that he's been suspected of doping for years not only add nothing to the argument, but do it harm.

Conjecture would have had Kenney target tested and suspended years ago. It's a great tool, probably better than the bio passport. Just ask Comardo or Leogrande. Perhaps USADA could formalize an anonymous "vote for your next out of competition test" survey.

 

[Race Radio]

Conjecture would have had Kenney target tested and suspended years ago. It's a great tool, probably better than the bio passport. Just ask Comardo or Leogrande. Perhaps USADA could formalize an anonymous "vote for your next out of competition test" survey.

Williams was not in the USDA OOC testing pool.

I do like your survey idea though.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

The problem I have with Lemond is how he is going about it. If he can afford high-priced attorneys to fight this Trek lawsuit he should be able to afford a competent PR firm...

This is a very good point. Not because Greg comes off like a bitter man who hates Lance and bashes him at every chance. He actually doesn't do that, much at all, as Race Radio stated. However, PR against him, often by Lance followers, has created this image of him, and you get fans creating things like this:


(click the photo for a bigger version).

Hiring a small, but dedicated firm of anti-doping cycling fans who like Greg could definitely help reverse this. Both by providing press releases, but also links to positive interviews with Greg, and do things like help post factual information setting the record straight on message boards.