- Mar 15, 2011
- 2,760
- 71
- 11,580
Re: Re:
The secrecy is bizzare, but one explanation is simply that it is not well researched. Like another posters said, these diets have existed culturally forever. Athletically, they have also been done, but in the realm of athlete trial and error, not as a scientific study, or even evidence based program.
Even more, while the discussion of ketones is not expansive, it's concept is. Periodized nutrition, metabolic efficiency, and depletion training are all different discussions and lexicons on a similar process.
So either sky are needlessly secretive (big surprise) or they don't understand, not fully, what they are talking about.
Benotti69 said:
The secrecy is bizzare, but one explanation is simply that it is not well researched. Like another posters said, these diets have existed culturally forever. Athletically, they have also been done, but in the realm of athlete trial and error, not as a scientific study, or even evidence based program.
Even more, while the discussion of ketones is not expansive, it's concept is. Periodized nutrition, metabolic efficiency, and depletion training are all different discussions and lexicons on a similar process.
So either sky are needlessly secretive (big surprise) or they don't understand, not fully, what they are talking about.
- Mar 15, 2011
- 2,760
- 71
- 11,580
- May 28, 2010
- 54
- 0
- 0
Re: Re:
Don't mix LCHF & GF; I'm sure you know they are not the same thing. One can certainly do HCLF and GF, and that's not what we're talking about here.
It looks like that author did not do a follow up. I think you could look here for better examples: http://optimumnutrition4sport.co.uk/testimonials/
But as mentioned earlier... if you think about it, mainstream stuff comes from studies that find edges that get marketed. Think about the 'protein window' post-training. Read the articles where they found this to work; it really doesn't apply directly to athletes in many cases, and in others its been blown way out of proportion. But companies grab on and market it and low-and-behold, the whole protein - recovery shake market explodes.
LCHF isn't really mainstream yet, I think; it hasn't been studied (relatively as) much or heavily marketed. While I know these athletes dope, or at least heavily suspect they do, it's pretty clear that some people are finding pretty significant improvements with LCHF. The trouble is quantifying it and finding examples that aren't overprinted by suspicions of doping.
Dear Wiggo said:centri said:
Will look for follow up given it's 2 years old.
Will also say that Tom Danielson claimed GF diet help him sleep, therefore recover therefore be stronger. Plainly a lie.
Don't mix LCHF & GF; I'm sure you know they are not the same thing. One can certainly do HCLF and GF, and that's not what we're talking about here.
It looks like that author did not do a follow up. I think you could look here for better examples: http://optimumnutrition4sport.co.uk/testimonials/
But as mentioned earlier... if you think about it, mainstream stuff comes from studies that find edges that get marketed. Think about the 'protein window' post-training. Read the articles where they found this to work; it really doesn't apply directly to athletes in many cases, and in others its been blown way out of proportion. But companies grab on and market it and low-and-behold, the whole protein - recovery shake market explodes.
LCHF isn't really mainstream yet, I think; it hasn't been studied (relatively as) much or heavily marketed. While I know these athletes dope, or at least heavily suspect they do, it's pretty clear that some people are finding pretty significant improvements with LCHF. The trouble is quantifying it and finding examples that aren't overprinted by suspicions of doping.
- May 28, 2010
- 54
- 0
- 0
Ninety5rpm said:
This looks pretty interesting: http://eatingacademy.com/personal/experience-exogenous-ketones
Figured I would post this.
I have been doing the Ketogenic program for diet. For 3 weeks now. I have not had much time to road ride. I have done some MTB rides. I try and almost always keep my carb intake under 60 grams per day. With most days being about 40 grams.
I have been losing massive amounts of fat. It is kinda weird. Because everyday my clothes are getting looser.And everything I have ever thought about needing carbs has been slowly been proven wrong to me.
So far on some of my MTB rides I have felt amazing and faster then usual at what I perceive at a lower exertion. However at some point if I go super hard I can feel it slipping away. It is a different feeling then I'm used to when I would blow up. And it is not a BONK. I have done that before! However as soon as I get that feeling. I pop a gel. And within minutes I can literally feel the energy. I also feel like my body gets a bit warmer (more on that).
I have not been using Keto sticks in my urine. Because I have read that they are not accurate. Especially for endurance athletics. I do have a weird taste in my mouth when I wake up (acetone?). I also drink water all day, mostly with lemon or lime. I cannot get my urine clear. Just a pale yellow. No Pain or anything. However it does have a slightly different odor.
I recently went to dinner with my wife and friends. We had Japanese. I ate mostly sashimi, but I did have a few pieces of sushi w/ rice. I had some gelato for desert as my treat. Within minutes I could feel a noticeable rise in body temp. I could not go to sleep. I felt like I had a TON of energy. However I must say I do not feel tired at all. Energy all day. No surges just the same.
The 2 things that I have a hard time wrapping my head around. Is eating full fat foods. And still dropping weight massively. With minimal road riding. My bike is out of the shop monday so I could only imagine what will happen then!
My good friend is an ultra-runner. He turned me onto this. He trains in low/medium HR zones mostly. He has told me to introduce carbs only pre workout on interval days. And for the remainder of that day keep my daily total as is.
As far as some other things I have noticed. I suffer from excema on my shins. A mild case. But in can be painfully itchy some times. Since the Keto. No Pain, No Itch, Skin is much clearer. I also sleep much better at night. Just in a more sound sleep.
I have been doing the Ketogenic program for diet. For 3 weeks now. I have not had much time to road ride. I have done some MTB rides. I try and almost always keep my carb intake under 60 grams per day. With most days being about 40 grams.
I have been losing massive amounts of fat. It is kinda weird. Because everyday my clothes are getting looser.And everything I have ever thought about needing carbs has been slowly been proven wrong to me.
So far on some of my MTB rides I have felt amazing and faster then usual at what I perceive at a lower exertion. However at some point if I go super hard I can feel it slipping away. It is a different feeling then I'm used to when I would blow up. And it is not a BONK. I have done that before! However as soon as I get that feeling. I pop a gel. And within minutes I can literally feel the energy. I also feel like my body gets a bit warmer (more on that).
I have not been using Keto sticks in my urine. Because I have read that they are not accurate. Especially for endurance athletics. I do have a weird taste in my mouth when I wake up (acetone?). I also drink water all day, mostly with lemon or lime. I cannot get my urine clear. Just a pale yellow. No Pain or anything. However it does have a slightly different odor.
I recently went to dinner with my wife and friends. We had Japanese. I ate mostly sashimi, but I did have a few pieces of sushi w/ rice. I had some gelato for desert as my treat. Within minutes I could feel a noticeable rise in body temp. I could not go to sleep. I felt like I had a TON of energy. However I must say I do not feel tired at all. Energy all day. No surges just the same.
The 2 things that I have a hard time wrapping my head around. Is eating full fat foods. And still dropping weight massively. With minimal road riding. My bike is out of the shop monday so I could only imagine what will happen then!
My good friend is an ultra-runner. He turned me onto this. He trains in low/medium HR zones mostly. He has told me to introduce carbs only pre workout on interval days. And for the remainder of that day keep my daily total as is.
As far as some other things I have noticed. I suffer from excema on my shins. A mild case. But in can be painfully itchy some times. Since the Keto. No Pain, No Itch, Skin is much clearer. I also sleep much better at night. Just in a more sound sleep.
Re:
Also, there was a recent study showing that cutting fat is more efficient than cutting carbs http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-33905745 which may be worth considering
Regarding the low/medium HR zone - I thought than current training practice (at least for cyclists) was to avoid the long workouts at low intensity/HR as they are inefficient? Surprised that this would not apply to other sports.thehook said:
Also, there was a recent study showing that cutting fat is more efficient than cutting carbs http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-33905745 which may be worth considering
- Sep 29, 2012
- 12,197
- 0
- 0
Re: Re:
It's a study of 6 days of dieting.
I may be a pseudo armchair scientist but even I can tell you drawing conclusions from 6 days of dieting is a complete fvcking joke.
Good effing grief.
Texeng said:
It's a study of 6 days of dieting.
I may be a pseudo armchair scientist but even I can tell you drawing conclusions from 6 days of dieting is a complete fvcking joke.
Good effing grief.
- Mar 15, 2011
- 2,760
- 71
- 11,580
Re:
A key factor missing in this article is his performance! None of those parameters matter if he races slower than before.
Where a lot of confusion and misunderstandings happen is the different goals nutritionists, trainers/coaches, recreational athletes, overweight people, and world elites have.
Higher rates of fat oxidation should not be the end goal for a high performance athlete. Higher performance should be the goal. Better fat oxidation may be a tool to get there, but there is a point where further nutritional and training attention on the tool takes away from what would otherwise further increase the end goal: performance.
One reason the media hyped science bounces back and forth is because, as someone said above, the edgy studies get the attention. But, they are edgy, and get edgy results, because of the different manipulations of the protocol. Not necessarily in a petty or dishonest way, but it is the nature of the beast that context matters sooo much.
This is where armchair sciencing is hard. Especially only being able to read abstracts (mostly), it really matters how the study was set up: the participants (especially how the researchers define amateur or elite or national-class or whatever), the parameters, and what is actually being measured (and how). An intervention's result of improved time-to-exhaustion step test are not as valuable as if it were a self-paced time trial. A change in 10 minute TT performance is not as valuable (for a TDF rider) as a VO2LT test.
centri said:
A key factor missing in this article is his performance! None of those parameters matter if he races slower than before.
Where a lot of confusion and misunderstandings happen is the different goals nutritionists, trainers/coaches, recreational athletes, overweight people, and world elites have.
Higher rates of fat oxidation should not be the end goal for a high performance athlete. Higher performance should be the goal. Better fat oxidation may be a tool to get there, but there is a point where further nutritional and training attention on the tool takes away from what would otherwise further increase the end goal: performance.
One reason the media hyped science bounces back and forth is because, as someone said above, the edgy studies get the attention. But, they are edgy, and get edgy results, because of the different manipulations of the protocol. Not necessarily in a petty or dishonest way, but it is the nature of the beast that context matters sooo much.
This is where armchair sciencing is hard. Especially only being able to read abstracts (mostly), it really matters how the study was set up: the participants (especially how the researchers define amateur or elite or national-class or whatever), the parameters, and what is actually being measured (and how). An intervention's result of improved time-to-exhaustion step test are not as valuable as if it were a self-paced time trial. A change in 10 minute TT performance is not as valuable (for a TDF rider) as a VO2LT test.
- Mar 15, 2011
- 2,760
- 71
- 11,580
Not necessarily related to any strand of the conversation right now, but GuruPerformance Podcast is a great source for performance nutrition information. The host is a practitioner, and he discusses topics in the context of athletic performance. Does a great job to synthesize the noise of studies into tangible applications.
Among the metabolic efficiency, fuel usage strand:
Episode 62 - 'Fat Oxidation, Exercise & Insulin Sensitivity' with Scott Robinson PhD(c) and Gareth Wallis PhD
Episode 51 - 'Carbohydrate Availability & Training Adaptation' with Professor John Hawley
Episode 45 - 'Carbohydrate Periodization' with Trent Stellingwerff PhD
Episode 11 - 'Metabolic Efficiency' with Bob Seebohar MS RD CSCS
and a clinic special
Episode 59 - 'Oversciencing and Marginal Gains in Elite Sport' with Marco Cardinale PhD
Among the metabolic efficiency, fuel usage strand:
Episode 62 - 'Fat Oxidation, Exercise & Insulin Sensitivity' with Scott Robinson PhD(c) and Gareth Wallis PhD
Episode 51 - 'Carbohydrate Availability & Training Adaptation' with Professor John Hawley
Episode 45 - 'Carbohydrate Periodization' with Trent Stellingwerff PhD
Episode 11 - 'Metabolic Efficiency' with Bob Seebohar MS RD CSCS
and a clinic special
Episode 59 - 'Oversciencing and Marginal Gains in Elite Sport' with Marco Cardinale PhD
- May 28, 2010
- 54
- 0
- 0
Re:
I did this for ultrarunning a few years back with very similar results (including improved skin, sleep and memory). Keep an eye out for muscle wasting, and pay attention to the cold hands and such. Volek and Phinney have a book on doing LCHF for athletes that was a big help for me.
thehook said:
I did this for ultrarunning a few years back with very similar results (including improved skin, sleep and memory). Keep an eye out for muscle wasting, and pay attention to the cold hands and such. Volek and Phinney have a book on doing LCHF for athletes that was a big help for me.
- May 28, 2010
- 54
- 0
- 0
Re: Re:
Absolutely. Too bad there was no follow up. I think the next link I posted is interesting (http://optimumnutrition4sport.co.uk/testimonials/) as he worked with BMC and a Green Egde rider. I wonder how that worked out.
This though, http://eatingacademy.com/personal/experience-exogenous-ketones, was interesting, "The energy necessary to perform the mechanical work did not appear to change much between tests, though the amount of oxygen utilization and fat oxidation did go down measurably.".
More Strides than Rides said:
Absolutely. Too bad there was no follow up. I think the next link I posted is interesting (http://optimumnutrition4sport.co.uk/testimonials/) as he worked with BMC and a Green Egde rider. I wonder how that worked out.
This though, http://eatingacademy.com/personal/experience-exogenous-ketones, was interesting, "The energy necessary to perform the mechanical work did not appear to change much between tests, though the amount of oxygen utilization and fat oxidation did go down measurably.".
Re: Centri
Thanks for recommending the book. I will look for it. I'm doing this to actually lose fat. And I would like to lose some upper body muscle. I know you cannot be selective in where you lose it. But I have enough to spare all around. For me the drop in overall body weight will be a huge performance gain. In just the fact of trying to climb with the less excess weight alone.
I look at my season now. As building for next season now. I rode the Alps on vacation. And that was the high point for me in training. So now I'm looking to build for CX season. No Racing. And experiment with dropping the weight before I start doing the hard intervals in Jan/Feb.
Cheers
Thanks for recommending the book. I will look for it. I'm doing this to actually lose fat. And I would like to lose some upper body muscle. I know you cannot be selective in where you lose it. But I have enough to spare all around. For me the drop in overall body weight will be a huge performance gain. In just the fact of trying to climb with the less excess weight alone.
I look at my season now. As building for next season now. I rode the Alps on vacation. And that was the high point for me in training. So now I'm looking to build for CX season. No Racing. And experiment with dropping the weight before I start doing the hard intervals in Jan/Feb.
Cheers
- Mar 15, 2011
- 2,760
- 71
- 11,580
Re: Re:
Interesting stuff. The result does have some implications (performance at altitude, LT, vLT and vV02).
The interesting part to me was that exogenous ketones caused a decrease in blood glucose (supplamented ketones triggering an insulin response which serves to uptake more glucose from blood into muscles), and that it was of course not used as fuel in the muscles. It seems then, that you aren't necessarily loosing the ability to sprint/go anaerobic; you aren't necessarily glucose depleted, just that the glucose is not where we usually look for it. But again, that would depend on supplementing ketones and the diet being supplemented (driving the ability to use ketones efficiently), as opposed to a ketogenic state being the norm.
Anyway, cool stuff. A cool piece of on going nutrition/sports science.
centri said:
Interesting stuff. The result does have some implications (performance at altitude, LT, vLT and vV02).
The interesting part to me was that exogenous ketones caused a decrease in blood glucose (supplamented ketones triggering an insulin response which serves to uptake more glucose from blood into muscles), and that it was of course not used as fuel in the muscles. It seems then, that you aren't necessarily loosing the ability to sprint/go anaerobic; you aren't necessarily glucose depleted, just that the glucose is not where we usually look for it. But again, that would depend on supplementing ketones and the diet being supplemented (driving the ability to use ketones efficiently), as opposed to a ketogenic state being the norm.
Anyway, cool stuff. A cool piece of on going nutrition/sports science.
- May 26, 2010
- 28,143
- 5
- 0
TRENDING THREADS
-
Tour de France Tour de France 2025 Stage 12: Auch - Hautacam (180.6k)- Started by Krzysztof_O
- Replies: 1K
-
Tour de France Tour de France 2025 Stage 10: Ennezat – Le Mont-Dore (165.3k)- Started by Tricycle Rider
- Replies: 929
-
Tour de France Tour de France 2025 Stage 13: Loudenvielle – Peyragudes (10.9k, ITT)
- Started by Tricycle Rider
- Replies: 114
-
-
Tour de France Stage 6: Bayeux – Vire-Normandie (201.5k)- Started by YavorD
- Replies: 779
-
Tour de France Tour de France 2025, Stage 5: Caen – Caen (33.0k, ITT)
- Started by Tricycle Rider
- Replies: 723
-
Tour de France Tour de France 2025 Stage 7: Saint-Malo – Mûr-de-Bretagne (197.0k)
- Started by Tricycle Rider
- Replies: 538
Facebook
Twitter
Instagram