Ketones... the latest super fuel?

[bigcog]

Re:

I am a Cree Indian from the Great Plains of North America. My people subsisted on a diet of Buffalo meat and fat in the summer and pemmican in the winter. Pemmican is dried meat, fat and berries pounded into a mixture that will last through the winter. As far as I can tell the carbs from the berries were the only addition of carbs to our diet. My people lived in vast territories and traveled from settlement to settlement on foot following the buffalo herds. Running was an important part of our culture and there was a society of buffalo runners that scouted the territory for buffalo, these runners would eat a 100% ketogenic diet and ate no carbs.

With colonization and the decimation of the buffalo our diets have been changed to include so many carbs and the result is diabetes. My grand parents died of diabetic issues, my father is diabetic and at least two of my siblings are diabetic.
As a kid I could eat whatever I wanted and not gain a pound. But when I was 26 I started working in an office at a desk all day and I ended up gaining 30 pounds. I managed a few times to lose a bit of weight but it kept coming back. It wasn't until recently(nov 2014) that I restricted my carbs and went to eating more meat and fat and I am now back to my pre-office weight. My watts per kilo are the highest they've ever been. My 5min, 10min, and 20min peak power is nearly as high on the trainer as what I was capable of doing on the road last year, anyone who trains with power knows the trainer is usually 30-40 watts lower than the road.

The point of my post is that not everybody reacts to nutrition the same way and that a high fat/protein diet is working just fine for me.

Elijah Buffalo

Great interesting post.

 

[Jagartrott]

Re:

Could ketones alone count for Sky's Top-velocity-diesel-train?

Froome and Brailsford have denied this categorically.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Could ketones alone count for Sky's Top-velocity-diesel-train?

Froome and Brailsford have denied this categorically.

Paul Chamberlain ‏@PCNutrition 13 Dec 2012
British cycling training for ketone use as fuel. Part training part diet strategy but details are secret! #isenc12

 

[TheSpud]

Re: Re:

Could ketones alone count for Sky's Top-velocity-diesel-train?

Froome and Brailsford have denied this categorically.

Which means its probably true ...

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re:

I am a Cree Indian from the Great Plains of North America. My people subsisted on a diet of Buffalo meat and fat in the summer and pemmican in the winter. Pemmican is dried meat, fat and berries pounded into a mixture that will last through the winter. As far as I can tell the carbs from the berries were the only addition of carbs to our diet. My people lived in vast territories and traveled from settlement to settlement on foot following the buffalo herds. Running was an important part of our culture and there was a society of buffalo runners that scouted the territory for buffalo, these runners would eat a 100% ketogenic diet and ate no carbs.

With colonization and the decimation of the buffalo our diets have been changed to include so many carbs and the result is diabetes. My grand parents died of diabetic issues, my father is diabetic and at least two of my siblings are diabetic.
As a kid I could eat whatever I wanted and not gain a pound. But when I was 26 I started working in an office at a desk all day and I ended up gaining 30 pounds. I managed a few times to lose a bit of weight but it kept coming back. It wasn't until recently(nov 2014) that I restricted my carbs and went to eating more meat and fat and I am now back to my pre-office weight. My watts per kilo are the highest they've ever been. My 5min, 10min, and 20min peak power is nearly as high on the trainer as what I was capable of doing on the road last year, anyone who trains with power knows the trainer is usually 30-40 watts lower than the road.

The point of my post is that not everybody reacts to nutrition the same way and that a high fat/protein diet is working just fine for me.

Elijah Buffalo

Interesting. If you have the time / inclination, I would be very interested in seeing a typical eating plan for an intense week of training and racing?

Thanks for sharing.

 

[dottigirl]

I've done a similar diet: fish, meat and green veg only for three weeks, then a gradual reintroduction of other veg and dairy. Continued minimal consumption of fruit, grains, and other carbs. After a few days, you get the shakes and feel really sick - really, really sick - as your body starts craving carbs. It's like drug withdrawal, which in a way it is - many people are addicted to sugar.

After ten days or so I had lost as massive amount of weight, and felt like superwoman. Seriously epic.
After three weeks, I was allowed one 'day-off' a week,otherwise stuck to the diet and continued to lose weight. If I was cycling >20 miles, I was allowed limited carbs, otherwise I would bonk. Once, I went wrong and had to get off my bike and sit by the side of the road to recover. I carried slices of meat and sugar snap peas for these occasions.

Most interestingly, I was told at the time it was an 'ANTI-INFLAMMATION DIET' to induce ketosis/a 'ketogenic state' as I had joint problems at the time. My joint pain did decrease, and I seldom had muscular pain. As long as I stuck to the diet, my weight stayed low and my body couldn't cope with vast amounts of sugar unless I was exercising. Unfortunately, I was a bit too naughty and I'm now addicted to sugar again (and my weight has crept back up).

I can believe that it would be beneficial for cyclists to go through that process. Weight loss, decreased inflammation, and increased feeling of wellbeing? If there was a supplement to assist with achieving this state, without going through the three weeks? Yes please.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re:

I've done a similar diet: fish, meat and green veg only for three weeks, then a gradual reintroduction of other veg and dairy. Continued minimal consumption of fruit, grains, and other carbs. After a few days, you get the shakes and feel really sick - really, really sick - as your body starts craving carbs. It's like drug withdrawal, which in a way it is - many people are addicted to sugar.

After ten days or so I had lost as massive amount of weight, and felt like superwoman. Seriously epic.
After three weeks, I was allowed one 'day-off' a week,otherwise stuck to the diet and continued to lose weight. If I was cycling >20 miles, I was allowed limited carbs, otherwise I would bonk. Once, I went wrong and had to get off my bike and sit by the side of the road to recover. I carried slices of meat and sugar snap peas for these occasions.

Most interestingly, I was told at the time it was an 'ANTI-INFLAMMATION DIET' to induce ketosis/a 'ketogenic state' as I had joint problems at the time. My joint pain did decrease, and I seldom had muscular pain. As long as I stuck to the diet, my weight stayed low and my body couldn't cope with vast amounts of sugar unless I was exercising. Unfortunately, I was a bit too naughty and I'm now addicted to sugar again (and my weight has crept back up).

I can believe that it would be beneficial for cyclists to go through that process. Weight loss, decreased inflammation, and increased feeling of wellbeing? If there was a supplement to assist with achieving this state, without going through the three weeks? Yes please.

Thanks for sharing!

I am curious if you noticed a change in your stool? I realise it's a very personal question but it's the one warning I have heard from people recently back from an information session.

 

[dottigirl]

Re: Re:

Thanks for sharing!

I am curious if you noticed a change in your stool? I realise it's a very personal question but it's the one warning I have heard from people recently back from an information session.

I can remember something weird happening, and the physio bloke checking up on it with me (he was laughing, but as an Aussie he always took the piss), though I can't for the life of me remember what it was.

(I really do want to do it again, but it requires one hell of a lot of meal planning, a shitload of self control to resist the cravings, and zero social life for three weeks as no one can cater for you. I got too much going on atm.)

I can't see pro cyclists struggling with it, especially if the food is being provided for them and they're somewhere away from temptation. It really does seem to change something within the body in relation to processing of foods.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Re:

To quote the British: ********.

You don't agree with 'the Maffetone method' then acoggan? He had a lot of success with many many athletes (some of whom coach using a very similar philosophy) and normal people.

Well, look at it differently. At this sport endurance athletics have had many "coaches" that turned out to be dealing/forcing PEDs, or covering for the doping. Chris Carmichael, Ferrari, Alan Lim, Fuentes are just a few.

 

[armchairclimber]

Just a quick note. I watched the short video from the Telegraph when they were embedded with Sky at Teide. There was mention of keeping carb intake to a minimum. However, they did show their nutritionist preparing fruit smoothies which, of course, are rather high in carbs/sugars.

FWIW, I tend to maintain a HFLC regime for weight loss whilst doing mostly sub-maximal training (with hard intervals/speed work built into the schedule). It does work for training and would explain those skinny frickin arms on the Sky team. It would also account, to some extent, for an increased reliance upon lipid energy during the easier parts of a stage, with greater reserves of glycogen for the finish.
I can't believe that they race on the HFLC regime though. They must carb load prior to the Tour and throughout.

Don't get me wrong though, I'm not in the Sky apologist camp. They're up to something beyond nutrition.

 

[sniper]

Re:

I can believe that it would be beneficial for cyclists to go through that process.

wouldn't it massively restrict your training intensity/capacity?

If there was a supplement to assist with achieving this state, without going through the three weeks? Yes please.

this indeed.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re:

Just a quick note. I watched the short video from the Telegraph when they were embedded with Sky at Teide. There was mention of keeping carb intake to a minimum. However, they did show their nutritionist preparing fruit smoothies which, of course, are rather high in carbs/sugars.

There was a frothing article about that camp by the embedded journalist and the first thing they did when they got to the bottom of the climb or something was scoff down gels

I am guessing those gels were not protein.

The riders pause briefly once they reach sea level to refuel with an energy bar or gel and drinks from an icebox in the car and prepare for their first climb of the day, a 9km effort through a banana plantation.
http://s.telegraph.co.uk/graphics/projects/team-sky-tour-de-france-2015/index.html

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re: Re:

I can believe that it would be beneficial for cyclists to go through that process.

wouldn't it massively restrict your training intensity/capacity?

Ferrari claims ketones generate 30% more energy for the same amount of oxygen as carbs.

It won't affect capacity / duration of sub-maximal training, but may impact top-end intensity training.

However 90% or close to it of training is sub-maximal.

 

[Catwhoorg]

Not specific to ketones as fuels, but entering ketosis does help with weight loss.
Ketones get expelled from the lungs and in the urine (and sweat IIRC).

You literally piss and sweat out some calories.

This may be a small portion of the magic weight loss formula the Sky is using.

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

Not specific to ketones as fuels, but entering ketosis does help with weight loss.
Ketones get expelled from the lungs and in the urine (and sweat IIRC).

You literally piss and sweat out some calories.

This may be a small portion of the magic weight loss formula the Sky is using.

If it is only a small portion of the 'magic', why do they deny it?

At a few thousand a litre, not many teams can afford it!

 

[Catwhoorg]

Beats me why they deny it, when its so easily seen that they have at least looked at it in the past.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Re:

My joint pain did decrease, and I seldom had muscular pain. As long as I stuck to the diet, my weight stayed low and my body couldn't cope with vast amounts of sugar unless I was exercising. Unfortunately, I was a bit too naughty and I'm now addicted to sugar again (and my weight has crept back up).

I can believe that it would be beneficial for cyclists to go through that process. Weight loss, decreased inflammation, and increased feeling of wellbeing? If there was a supplement to assist with achieving this state, without going through the three weeks? Yes please.

Except, the sport has mostly exhausted this explaination some years ago. The ketones explaination is a variation on the gluten free story that turned out to be an excuse for doping.

For you, I'd be interested to hear what happens if you limit gluten. Your story isn't uncommon.

 

[dottigirl]

Re: Re:

I can believe that it would be beneficial for cyclists to go through that process.

wouldn't it massively restrict your training intensity/capacity?

In the first three weeks, I was warned not to do any long or intense rides.
Didn't really feel like them anyway - was too busy puking up chicken breast and peas (at one stage, you feel really, really nauseous) and struggling to find something tempting to eat. Low intensity wanders were about it (mostly food shopping trips.

After the three weeks, it was a question of balancing carb intake with exercise. If I wasn't cycling, or planning to cycle, I wouldn't eat carb-rich foods.

Found an email - I had some blood tests done shortly afterwards and despite a high animal fat diet, my cholesterol had dropped. Thyroid, FBC, liver function, bone profile, glucose were all normal but my creatinine was borderline-low, enough to consider supplementation.

For you, I'd be interested to hear what happens if you limit gluten.

It's more interesting if I eat gluten (bread, cakes) nowadays: sore throat and headache for small amounts, ability to *** through the eye of a needle after a pizza or more than one scone. I was negative for all the allergy/coeliac tests they ran, so I suspect it's more to do with the crap they put in the flour in this country.

On a sidenote, I went on a cycling holiday to Italy and the physio allowed me a week off. He smirked as he told me I could eat as much pasta and pizza as I wanted.
I thought it would be impossible to put on weight while cycling 50+ mountainous miles a day in 30+ degree heat. Wrong - I went up a size. Mostly around my waist. Totally bloated. As soon as I returned to low carb in the UK, the weight dropped back off, immediately.
Physio laughed his head off when I cursed him. Evil bastard.

Your story isn't uncommon.

Yeah, I know very few people who have tried it to that extreme though, and no fellow cyclists who've gone through with the three-week process (they're scared of bonking). It's bloody hard work to do properly, and the side effects are such that you feel physically ill for almost a week (I was off work at the time so it didn't matter.)


Another side note: this past season, I had a pro rugby player staying with me for a few weeks. His nutrition was diabolical - cheap pasta, etc, hardly any greens, low-fat everything including skimmed milk and cooking with sprays - but he thought he was eating healthily because that's what he had actually been taught on his degree course less than a year previously. He used to wonder why he never lost his pudginess.

I was astounded that he could be making so many basic errors even at his level, and training in a pro club environment. Mostly, he just did what the people around him said or did themselves. (And he probably would have doped with very little pressure, if he wasn't already.)

If a pro rugby player can be going so far wrong with all the support he had available..?

(Apologies for going OT.)

 

[DirtyWorks]

Re: Re:

I was negative for all the allergy/coeliac tests they ran, so I suspect it's more to do with the crap they put in the flour in this country.

There's a long, long way between coeliac and your body not processing wheat well. What happens if you replace wheat with gluten free alternatives? Also check out dairy consumption. Dairy pops up in unexpected places. Try some lactose pills and see what happens.

What you describe is all pretty familiar to me. I'd be very interested to hear how dialing back the wheat/gluten and dairy goes. Also try digestive enzyme supplements with your meals.

PM me if you give it a try.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Do you mean lactase pills?

 

[Bosco Rivera]

Re:

I am a Cree Indian from the Great Plains of North America. My people subsisted on a diet of Buffalo meat and fat in the summer and pemmican in the winter. Pemmican is dried meat, fat and berries pounded into a mixture that will last through the winter. As far as I can tell the carbs from the berries were the only addition of carbs to our diet. My people lived in vast territories and traveled from settlement to settlement on foot following the buffalo herds. Running was an important part of our culture and there was a society of buffalo runners that scouted the territory for buffalo, these runners would eat a 100% ketogenic diet and ate no carbs.

With colonization and the decimation of the buffalo our diets have been changed to include so many carbs and the result is diabetes. My grand parents died of diabetic issues, my father is diabetic and at least two of my siblings are diabetic.
As a kid I could eat whatever I wanted and not gain a pound. But when I was 26 I started working in an office at a desk all day and I ended up gaining 30 pounds. I managed a few times to lose a bit of weight but it kept coming back. It wasn't until recently(nov 2014) that I restricted my carbs and went to eating more meat and fat and I am now back to my pre-office weight. My watts per kilo are the highest they've ever been. My 5min, 10min, and 20min peak power is nearly as high on the trainer as what I was capable of doing on the road last year, anyone who trains with power knows the trainer is usually 30-40 watts lower than the road.

The point of my post is that not everybody reacts to nutrition the same way and that a high fat/protein diet is working just fine for me.

Elijah Buffalo

Your story reminds me of JV speaking about Tommy D's metabolism and diet from 2009:

"Tom Danielson in 20 per cent Eskimo in his heritage, and this probably contributes to what I can only describe as a uinique metabolism. He has a strong tendancy to store fat, not use it as fuel, if untrained.

You can see this in any photo of Tommy D. He can never get down to the vein popping five per cent fat you see in some riders. He just cannot do it, not matter how much he starves or trains. In addition, this metabolism tends to strongly favour sugar as fuel. When Tom eats carbohydrate, his body wants to just use it up as fuel, then shut down, and store all the fat ingested as body mass. I suppose this is to protect against arctic winds, but it’s very difficult to work with in a cyclist. Not only does his body want to be chubby, naturally, it also gets the hunger knock very easily, as naturally, his body doesn’t like to use its fat stores as fuel. So, he’s a rider that has to eat a lot to keep from getting hunger flat, but gets fat, quite easily, from eating a lot. Tough.

Then you throw in the fact that this very sugar based metabolism causes high lactate levels and you have a rider that will clearly have wildly fluctuating form. If he eats too much, he’s fat and acidic; too little and he goes hunger flat. Or both. This is the cause of the maddening unpredictability we see in Tom.

Last winter, we set a new diet and training plan to get this fixed. It was a very fat/protein based diet, which was very hard for Tom to follow. He was seeing stars on every training ride, and had given up all of his favourite foods. He was eating like an Eskimo, but still training hard. It took time and discipline for him to adapt.

However, by our New Mexico training camp in 2009, it seemed he had turned the corner. Tom was doing six hour rides without having to stuff his face with sugar, and he was doing them without crashing hunger flat. It was incredible to see the progress. He was also considerably lighter, almost eight kilogrammes, than he had been in 2008."


Read more at http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest-news/jonathan-vaughters-on-the-enigmatic-tom-danielson-64053#QwWRzTl3dIRefpOG.99

 

[SundayRider]

Low carb (relatively) is nothing new Mark Allen ate a higher fat diet during late 80s.

 

[Sorped]

Re:

Team A, Team B, Team C, etc. all use and have access to all methods of performance enhancing, legal and illegal. Team A as the only team though had access to very expensive, latest development ketone Thrash 'Em All® energy drink.

Would the race look like this years Tour? If, as many think, they're all doped (not just Sky), and that the different teams' different secrets slowly ooze out over the course of seasons, why are Sky that much stronger than the other teams?

 

[centri]

Here's an interesting application of LCHF, n=1. Check out the output at the bottom of the story:

Metabolic efficiency point (50/50 fuel use) improved from 180 W to 300 W. This shows the massive increase in efficiency we saw with a switch to a LCHF diet.

Pretty nuts, and certainly not numbers to ignore.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re:

Here's an interesting application of LCHF, n=1. Check out the output at the bottom of the story:

Metabolic efficiency point (50/50 fuel use) improved from 180 W to 300 W. This shows the massive increase in efficiency we saw with a switch to a LCHF diet.

Pretty nuts, and certainly not numbers to ignore.

Will look for follow up given it's 2 years old.

Will also say that Tom Danielson claimed GF diet help him sleep, therefore recover therefore be stronger. Plainly a lie.