Ketones... the latest super fuel?

[kaffenback]

Yep. In my harder-living days I'd regularly wake up hungover at the weekend, and would go for a cycle as some kind of misguided penance. I'd generally go up the mountains and push and push until I could push no longer, then turn the bike around and freewheel all the way home.

I never felt any dramatic point when I suddenly bonked, but often my sweat would smell of ammonia, and once I was wearing a black cotton t-shirt and left it in the laundry basket for a few days after I got home - when I eventually went to put it in the wash, a few parts of it had turned orange.

For a small fee I'm willing to share my knowledge with Dave Brailsford, although looking at Kiryienka on stage 9 last week they might already be using this approach.

^^ this made me laugh.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

There’s a new drink that could not only help you lose weight, but could also treat epilepsy, diabetes and possibly even Alzheimer’s. It might also be an incredible energy booster. When a group of international rowing champions took it, one of them beat a world record.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/a...-itll-treat-diabetes-epilepsy-Alzheimers.html

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Anything that allows ketones without a super low carb intake should be an advantage in endurance sports, imo.

 

[durianrider]

Some people really are naive.

Go ride 4000km in a month on a couple of gels a day and bidons full of olive oil washed down with lettuce leaves. IMPOSSIBLE lol!

Ketosis = BONKING. What did Froome get Porte to do on the last few minutes of that stage recently? Go back to the team car for SUGARS or some bacon bitz?

Ive riden with all the big names from Lance to Contador. All of em smash down the carbs. 10g of carbs per kg of bodyweight per day is standard. Not many athletes can eat that clean though and pile on the weight when they fat and protein load to make up for lack of carb intake.

Ive 6ft, 65kg around 3% body fat. All year long. Don't even drink caffeine. Eat carbs to get skinny. LOTS OF EM. The fat you eat is the fat you wear. Eat 100g of fat to store 100g of fat you then have to burn off. Excess carbs burned off via dietary thermogenesis. Carbs = 4 cals per gram. Fat = 9 CALS PER GRAM. So you have to eat half your volume and starve when eating lots of fat to stay slim. Even then you don't have the glycogen levels to train and recover properly hence why there has NEVER been a world class doped athlete following low carb.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Yeah ketones != ketosis.

Double click > ketones < and right click and "search google for..." to get up to speed on the discussion.

 

[spetsa]

Some people really are naive.

Go ride 4000km in a month on a couple of gels a day and bidons full of olive oil washed down with lettuce leaves. IMPOSSIBLE lol!

Ketosis = BONKING. What did Froome get Porte to do on the last few minutes of that stage recently? Go back to the team car for SUGARS or some bacon bitz?

Ive riden with all the big names from Lance to Contador. All of em smash down the carbs. 10g of carbs per kg of bodyweight per day is standard. Not many athletes can eat that clean though and pile on the weight when they fat and protein load to make up for lack of carb intake.

Ive 6ft, 65kg around 3% body fat. All year long. Don't even drink caffeine. Eat carbs to get skinny. LOTS OF EM. The fat you eat is the fat you wear. Eat 100g of fat to store 100g of fat you then have to burn off. Excess carbs burned off via dietary thermogenesis. Carbs = 4 cals per gram. Fat = 9 CALS PER GRAM. So you have to eat half your volume and starve when eating lots of fat to stay slim. Even then you don't have the glycogen levels to train and recover properly hence why there has NEVER been a world class doped athlete following low carb.

I thought that you only ate bananas

 

[northstar]

Link to 2012 study 'Kinetics, safety and tolerability of (ketone ester) in healthy adult subjects'
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22561291

Study shows a ketone monoester is a safe and simple method to elevate blood ketone levels. The compound was administered in form of a drink and blood ketones were raised within 1-2 hours of taking it.

Professor Kieran Clarke is co-author of the study and is also mentioned in the November 2012 Daily Mail article linked upthread by Tyler's Twin and again here. Quote from that article on physical benefits of the compound:

“A group of top international rowers were given it shortly before they rowed on fixed machines in a lab. After half an hour of hard rowing, those getting the Drink had rowed on average 50m further in the same time than when they had a dummy drink. Dr Scott Drawer, head of research at UK Sport, who helped design the trial, said: ‘Ketones have been ignored as an energy source in sport. We need to look at them seriously.’”

Prof. Clarke is the founder of the company TdeltaS and its website claims it has developed a new food group that has potential use in commercial products that could reach the market in 2014 (website here). Some obvious products could be energy drinks, gels or bars containing ketone esters.

The food product supposedly gives you an energy boost over a short period and helps you lose body fat over the long term. If true, sounds perfect for a pro rider (or anyone who diets actually). Also, the product does not appear on WADA’s list of banned substances.

According to the Daily Mail article, the company needs money to run more trials and the product will not be in shops for some time. Still in the early stages, and it may be too good to be true, but it's an interesting development.
.

 

[JPM London]

I guess this one's confirmed now,then...

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest-news/ketones-controversial-new-energy-drink-next-big-thing-cycling-151877

 

[pastronef]

I guess this one's confirmed now,then...

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest-news/ketones-controversial-new-energy-drink-next-big-thing-cycling-151877

I expect some fans to catch some bottles on the side of the road and go analyze them

 

[More Strides than Rides]

I missed this thread two yeas ago, but I have two points about the discussion from then.

Even if ketones are just for the brain, they will still improve performance. Accepting that the brain is central to fatigue and bonking, not the muscles themselves, then what the brain senses, it will accept as reality. We see this with rinse-spit studies, deceptive heat studies, and deceptive pace studies. So, keep the brain fed, and it will push back its shut-off call to the body.

Also, the low carb diet for endurance athletes is not new. Marathoners now have a specefic term, depletion training, and its making its way around hobby jogging circles. Olive Oil and Lettuce? That was the race fuel of some ultra-marathoners I've worked with. Seriously (easy to carry was the selling point). Yeah, go ride a few hundred K without fuel and you'll bonk. But thats the point of training isn't it? Bonk in training so you can handle the load in racing...

Finally, this depletion training cannot be taken in isolation. It may be sky's style to attribute eerything to one change, but it all works together: it is way easier to ride 200k on 2000 cal/day when your blood is pumping way more chemicals than just ketones and lipids...

 

[dolophonic]

Yes i heard about this a couple of years ago too , missed the original thread...

A piece of the puzzle..

 

[ralphbert]

So supplement with ketones and it prevents the body from eating the brain while exercising? They must have got to froome too late.

 

[RownhamHill]

I guess this one's confirmed now,then...

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest-news/ketones-controversial-new-energy-drink-next-big-thing-cycling-151877

I think somewhere on this forum there is a thread with a power point from some nutrition conference, where someone from sky/BC mentioned using ketones - pretty sure I didn't dream that at least!

 

[TheSpud]

I guess this one's confirmed now,then...

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news...ew-energy-drink-next-big-thing-cycling-151877

Didnt Michael Hutchinson cover this in his book? I havent read it but I'm sure I've seen it mentioned somewhere.

 

[Granville57]

I, too, missed this thread first time around.

There was this from May, 2014
http://cyclingtips.com.au/2014/05/rocacorba-daily-215/

KETONE-BASED SPORTS DRINK PROMISES EDGE FOR ATHLETES

A new sports drink’s tests suggests that it can increase performance levels by up to two percent and will go on the market later this year. The key ingredients of the drink are flavoured compounds called ketones which the drink’s developers say, are particularly effective in enhancing performance in endurance athletes.

The key players. Interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JzztRG449g

Over time, when you haven't eaten, you produce these ketones, and it takes about seven days to two weeks to bring the ketone levels up. We can get that same level within one drink.

 

[Ferminal]

I missed this thread two yeas ago, but I have two points about the discussion from then.

Even if ketones are just for the brain, they will still improve performance. Accepting that the brain is central to fatigue and bonking, not the muscles themselves, then what the brain senses, it will accept as reality. We see this with rinse-spit studies, deceptive heat studies, and deceptive pace studies. So, keep the brain fed, and it will push back its shut-off call to the body.

Also, the low carb diet for endurance athletes is not new. Marathoners now have a specefic term, depletion training, and its making its way around hobby jogging circles. Olive Oil and Lettuce? That was the race fuel of some ultra-marathoners I've worked with. Seriously (easy to carry was the selling point). Yeah, go ride a few hundred K without fuel and you'll bonk. But thats the point of training isn't it? Bonk in training so you can handle the load in racing...

Finally, this depletion training cannot be taken in isolation. It may be sky's style to attribute eerything to one change, but it all works together: it is way easier to ride 200k on 2000 cal/day when your blood is pumping way more chemicals than just ketones and lipids...

Pretty sure there are endurance athletes who are LCHF but with sugar as needed for performance, anecdotal though, and maybe not in ketosis.

But whatever these synthesised ketones are, the same can be achieved on an ongoing basis through diet where you would have the benefits during training and so on. I don't think I'd consider them a PED at this stage.

 

[acoggan]

The problem with "foreign" fuels such as MCTs or ketones is that our bodies aren't very good at absorbing them. Consequently, you can't ingest significant amounts (relative to energy needs*) without suffering from severe osmotic diarrhea. (Fortunately, Ed Coyle worked this out just before I started my PhD under his direction back in 1983! )

*Key point here: although skeletal muscle readily oxidizes ketone bodies - to the point that in the 1930s, before FFA were discovered/recognized as not being an artifact of extraction of plasma, ketones were considered to be the most important lipid fuel - their concentration in plasma is normally quite low. Although the concentration will rise following, e.g., a prolonged fast, they still don't equal FFA as an energy source.

 

[SundayRider]

For those interested, Dr Phil Maffetone (coach to Mark Allen and many other triathletes, runners) has wrote about ketones and fat burning in great detail. It is more or less the cornerstone of his training philosophy. Training at low to mid intensity (via Heart Rate) to increase pace at fat burning intensity. He also advocates high fat lower carb diet with virtually no refined carbs.

 

[Catwhoorg]

The problem with "foreign" fuels such as MCTs or ketones is that our bodies aren't very good at absorbing them. Consequently, you can't ingest significant amounts (relative to energy needs*) without suffering from severe osmotic diarrhea. (Fortunately, Ed Coyle worked this out just before I started my PhD under his direction back in 1983! )

Would pineapple juice help this absoprtion ?
Could that be why Sky go on about it ?

 

[acoggan]

Would pineapple juice help this absoprtion ?
Could that be why Sky go on about it ?

I can't envision any connection.

 

[acoggan]

For those interested, Dr Phil Maffetone (coach to Mark Allen and many other triathletes, runners) has wrote about ketones and fat burning in great detail. It is more or less the cornerstone of his training philosophy. Training at low to mid intensity (via Heart Rate) to increase pace at fat burning intensity. He also advocates high fat lower carb diet with virtually no refined carbs.

To quote the British: ********.

 

[SundayRider]

To quote the British: ********.

You don't agree with 'the Maffetone method' then acoggan? He had a lot of success with many many athletes (some of whom coach using a very similar philosophy) and normal people.

 

[Catwhoorg]

I can't envision any connection.

Thanks.

(10 char)

 

[Buffalo]

I am a Cree Indian from the Great Plains of North America. My people subsisted on a diet of Buffalo meat and fat in the summer and pemmican in the winter. Pemmican is dried meat, fat and berries pounded into a mixture that will last through the winter. As far as I can tell the carbs from the berries were the only addition of carbs to our diet. My people lived in vast territories and traveled from settlement to settlement on foot following the buffalo herds. Running was an important part of our culture and there was a society of buffalo runners that scouted the territory for buffalo, these runners would eat a 100% ketogenic diet and ate no carbs.

With colonization and the decimation of the buffalo our diets have been changed to include so many carbs and the result is diabetes. My grand parents died of diabetic issues, my father is diabetic and at least two of my siblings are diabetic.
As a kid I could eat whatever I wanted and not gain a pound. But when I was 26 I started working in an office at a desk all day and I ended up gaining 30 pounds. I managed a few times to lose a bit of weight but it kept coming back. It wasn't until recently(nov 2014) that I restricted my carbs and went to eating more meat and fat and I am now back to my pre-office weight. My watts per kilo are the highest they've ever been. My 5min, 10min, and 20min peak power is nearly as high on the trainer as what I was capable of doing on the road last year, anyone who trains with power knows the trainer is usually 30-40 watts lower than the road.

The point of my post is that not everybody reacts to nutrition the same way and that a high fat/protein diet is working just fine for me.

Elijah Buffalo

 

[Sorped]

Could ketones alone count for Sky's Top-velocity-diesel-train?