Kevin Livingston and Conconi in 1993

[JPM London]

Hi all...

As a warm-up to Paris-Roubaix the other day I re-watched the Danish documentary Danskerlaegen 2 (The Dane's Doctor 2) from 2000 I think. This program dealt with Conconi's use of "EPO-test-research" money from the Italian IOC and how he used it instead to dope pro athletes (and himself) from 1993 onwards.

That is all well known history to most people who follow this forum I guess...

In the program the mention a good portion of the names implicated, but not all. And suddenly when watching it this time around my eyes catches something out of a corner. Yes, if you read the title above you'll know that it's Kevin's name sitting nicely in between the rest.

I know that his name has come up in conjunction with investigations into Ferrari in the end of the 90's, but I didn't know it appeared this early.

Googling all I may I have not found a single reference to this anywhere else.

So: Anyone else have any on this? Or is it simply the same connection that came up in the Ferrari case? (ie are they the same documents?)

 

[bobbins]

I raced against him a couple of years after that and the effect had obviously worn off!

Looking at his results, it would seem that he chose the clean route and retired. Being looked after by Larnse now tough, I bet he could write an interesting book.

 

[JPM London]

I raced against him a couple of years after that and the effect had obviously worn off!

Looking at his results, it would seem that he chose the clean route and retired. Being looked after by Larnse now tough, I bet he could write an interesting book.

When was that more precisely if you don't mind?

 

[bobbins]

1995 and again in 1996

 

[Escarabajo]

1995 and again in 1996

He was a top Domestique for Ullrich in 2001. So he was probably on the program then.

To the OP, I don't know anything else about this rider other than he retired too early, "A la Frankie Andreu".

 

[JPM London]

I definitely think he was on the program in 95 and 96 as he is connected to Ferrari in the late 90's and was riding Postal for LA until he moved to Telekom as mentioned. And this is where the story becomes funny, because according to the famed IM conversation between Andreu and Vaughters Livingston was completely surprised to finding that apparently there was no program on Telekom (or at least he wasn't invited )

When I noticed his name in the Conconi file it also made me even more sure Livingston is the Anonymous source pointing to doping on Postal...

 

[buckwheat]

I definitely think he was on the program in 95 and 96 as he is connected to Ferrari in the late 90's and was riding Postal for LA until he moved to Telekom as mentioned. And this is where the story becomes funny, because according to the famed IM conversation between Andreu and Vaughters Livingston was completely surprised to finding that apparently there was no program on Telekom (or at least he wasn't invited )

When I noticed his name in the Conconi file it also made me even more sure Livingston is the Anonymous source pointing to doping on Postal...

Re the IM I think Livingston pointed out that Ullrich's HCT was only 42 while he (KL) was at Telekom.

 

[JPM London]

Re the IM I think Livingston pointed out that Ullrich's HCT was only 42 while he (KL) was at Telekom.

Thanks for clarifying, that sounds right. Just noted what I had from the top of my head...

 

[bobbins]

He was at Motorola in 95, 96 and couldn't beat time with a stick. He can't have been on the program, if he was, it was no good!

 

[JPM London]

I find that really interesting as that would actually indicate Motorola to be a clean team, which I guess is quite central to the whole LA debate...

So maybe he's not in the files as early as 93, but only appears later towards the end of the nineties. I would really like to know if the Conconi and the Ferrari files are actually the same files or not and what period they cover.

Does anyone have a link or a reference to the files themselves?
As far as I have found out La Republicca publicised the whole list of Conconi-athletes (in which connection Stephen Roche denied any involvement), but I haven't been able to find the article as of yet...

 

[bobbins]

I don't think Motorola was any cleaner than any other team at the time.

Roche has links to Conconi somewhere, isn't there an Italian Judge that stated that they were sure Roche was on the program but there wasn't any proof?? Not sure what trial that was from though.

 

[JPM London]

Am looking through the program again and now can't find KL in the list??

Anyway; Roche is definitely on the list and with a S for "si" in the EPO column. Also there are at least 3 or 4 cover names for Roche, so that bit is quite damning...

I know I saw KL noted in there somewhere, but maybe in a different document. Will update when I find it again...

EDIT: OK, this is hugely annoying and slightly (if not very) embarrassing. Found the spot where Kevin's name pops up. It's NOT in relation to a discussion about Conconi's initial 92-93 doping, but from the Italian district attorney's case against Ferrari. So it's late 90s and Ferrari, not Conconi.

But with what you're saying, Bobbins, about him being far from top-notch in 95 and 96 and taking into account that apparently the Motorola riders where complaining about the unlevel playing field at this point in time, it makes sense that he would have been clean then and started shortly after...

 

[BikeCentric]

There are insinuations from Walsh in FLTL that Motorola was fairly clean when they first started competing in Europe and then LA among other riders pushed management to provide them with a program so they could compete better.

Regarding Livingston he was Lance's top climbing domestique at USPS for '99 and '00 then went to Telekom to work for Ulrich in either '01 or '02. I am pretty sure he did a good job for Ulrich in '01 as I think I remember him setting the pace for Telekom a lot on the infamous Alpe d'Huez "The Look" stage. Then Livingston abruptly retired shortly after.

 

[JPM London]

Yeah, I'm with you on that...

Maybe he didn't like it that much and dropped everything completely once the actual test was ready. Not a bad choice!

 

[pmcg76]

I think Livingston retired early because he got tired of the doping BS. He hadnt even hit 30 when he got out, I agree that he might have been the un-named source who admitted to doping whilst at US Postal. Andreu admitted to doping, Vaughters denied it was him and its unlikely to be a European in a US newspaper so narrows it down to Hincapie(Doubt it) or Livingston.

There was no way he was in the Conconi file from 92/93, he was still an amateur with Saturn in the US. I also agree that Motorola was relatively clean up until 95/96 similar to the French teams. Livingston was named in the Ferrari files.

Undoubtedly Roche was listed in the Conconi files but not all the Roche sounding codenames were necessarily him. There was also a Remo Rossi at Carrera during those years so some codenames probably belonged to him. Not saying Roche was innoecnt, its just that I have seen a few people jump to the conclusion that all the codenames belong to Roche. Technically Roche could wiggle his way out of incriminating eveidence a la Lance.

 

[JPM London]

I think Livingston retired early because he got tired of the doping BS. He hadnt even hit 30 when he got out, I agree that he might have been the un-named source who admitted to doping whilst at US Postal. Andreu admitted to doping, Vaughters denied it was him and its unlikely to be a European in a US newspaper so narrows it down to Hincapie(Doubt it) or Livingston.

Agree completely. Also Hincapie is a discussion in its own right. Going back to the infamous IM between Andreu and Vaughters they say something along the lines of hoping Hincapie isn't involved pretty much suggesting that he was at least clean when they rode with him.

There was no way he was in the Conconi file from 92/93, he was still an amateur with Saturn in the US. I also agree that Motorola was relatively clean up until 95/96 similar to the French teams. Livingston was named in the Ferrari files.

Already realised my stupid file-error. Thanks for elaborating on KLs early career, didn't know that.

Undoubtedly Roche was listed in the Conconi files but not all the Roche sounding codenames were necessarily him. There was also a Remo Rossi at Carrera during those years so some codenames probably belonged to him. Not saying Roche was innoecnt, its just that I have seen a few people jump to the conclusion that all the codenames belong to Roche. Technically Roche could wiggle his way out of incriminating eveidence a la Lance.

Well, if someone like Rolf Sorensen to this day can wiggle his way out of the Conconi file by simply stating that his willpower was his dope, then I don't think Roche needs to do any wiggling.

But as for Roche's cover names I'm not sure that your argument holds water. If you look at the file all the cover names are listed in brackets in the same line as the person's real name. That being said Roche left the Carrera squad in 93 didn't he? Which could indicate he left before the epo stuff got going.

 

[issoisso]

I find that really interesting as that would actually indicate Motorola to be a clean team

According to Steve Swart, they had an organized program

 

[pmcg76]

Well, if someone like Rolf Sorensen to this day can wiggle his way out of the Conconi file by simply stating that his willpower was his dope, then I don't think Roche needs to do any wiggling.

But as for Roche's cover names I'm not sure that your argument holds water. If you look at the file all the cover names are listed in brackets in the same line as the person's real name. That being said Roche left the Carrera squad in 93 didn't he? Which could indicate he left before the epo stuff got going.

I think they were doing EPO in 93 undoubtedly, I havent seen the files in a while but I remember thinking some of the codenames could be Rossi or Roche, maybe you can link me as to what you saw and I will check it out.

 

[JPM London]

All 5 doping programs from Danish television can be found here:
http://www.dr.dk/Sporten/Cykling/2007/03/30/140430.htm
although, unless you understand the language you won't get much out of the speak.

You want the one "called Danskerlaegen 2".

Then at 41:14 you get a good look at Conconi's list of his 23 athletes. Two of them were Italian long distance skiers (who incredibly won medals in the Lillehammer Olympics in 94), the rest are cyclists.

Roche is number 8 and he has a massive 6 aliases!

Number ten on the list is an amateur racer, but I'll let you discover exactly who on your own

Look at 24.31 as well. That's from the attorney's Ferrari file where I happened on Livingston. A lot of names there, but interestingly enough not someone like Hincapie. To me that's indication that's further indication Hincapie wasn't doping.

Also, if you have a look in the time frame leading up to 41:14 they explain some further Conconi lists labelled SERP, RERP and BONERP, which were diaries for when Rolf Sorensen, Roche and Bontempi respectively got treated with EPO. I think they only actually show the Sorensen diary (it is a Danish program after all) and they note that "over the course of 93 he was treated with EPO 72 times for a total of 134,000 units, which was a lot but not nearly as much as other riders".

Anyway, have fun!

 

[red_flanders]

I find that really interesting as that would actually indicate Motorola to be a clean team, which I guess is quite central to the whole LA debate...

So maybe he's not in the files as early as 93, but only appears later towards the end of the nineties. I would really like to know if the Conconi and the Ferrari files are actually the same files or not and what period they cover.

Does anyone have a link or a reference to the files themselves?
As far as I have found out La Republicca publicised the whole list of Conconi-athletes (in which connection Stephen Roche denied any involvement), but I haven't been able to find the article as of yet...

It's fairly well documented that Motorola was clean until the riders demanded that it not be--they wanted to compete.

 

[BikeCentric]

All I have to say about Hincapie is Tour de France mountain stage win by a large-framed Classics rider. Connect your own dots.

 

[bobbins]

According to Steve Swart, they had an organized program

He's got a pretty bad reputation himself but his insinuations about Motorola could be sour grapes as they let him go at the end of the 95? season.

 

[bobbins]

All I have to say about Hincapie is Tour de France mountain stage win by a large-framed Classics rider. Connect your own dots.

He didn't win it from a group of climbers, he won it from a break away so it is a plausible win.

 

[JPM London]

Also one unlikely win does not a doper make...

 

[BroDeal]

According to Steve Swart, they had an organized program

According to Swart, Motorola did not have a program. In 1995 Armstrong and the senior members decided that everyone on the Tour squad should use EPO. Each rider was responsible for buying their own gear. From Swart's description it does not sound like he was getting any advice about how to use the stuff other than word of mouth from the others. He claimed the EPO had no effect on him, and he complained about how expensive it was. He was probably not using it correctly, using too little because of the expense, or did not use it long enough to significantly raise his Hct. It was a fly by the seat of your pants endeavor instead of an organized program.

He also mentions how the following year Armstrong was ridiculously stronger. "Flying" is the term he used I think.

I also seem to recall something about Hincapie being a "junior" member of the team so he was not one of the senior members pushing for EPO use.