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Kevin Livingston and Conconi in 1993

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May 6, 2009
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You're right about Hincapie Bro, it was between him and Casartelli for the final spot for the 1995 Tour, and they went with Fabio instead (we all know how that ended :().

But I do recall that Race Radio mentioned that one of the main reasons that T Mobile dropped their sponsorship was because of the signing of Hincapie. Of course Sinkewitz didn't help their cause at all.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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craig1985 said:
You're right about Hincapie Bro, it was between him and Casartelli for the final spot for the 1995 Tour, and they went with Fabio instead (we all know how that ended :().

But I do recall that Race Radio mentioned that one of the main reasons that T Mobile dropped their sponsorship was because of the signing of Hincapie. Of course Sinkewitz didn't help their cause at all.
Is there really any doubt that all members of Armstrong's TdF squads were jacked? Chris Horner pointed out how ridiculous it was to have the final twenty in a mountain stage be composed of seven or eight Postal riders. The Vaughter's and Andreu's chat session makes it clear that there was a team doping program at Postal. I cannot see Armstrong or Bruyneel taking anyone who was not on the program to the Tour.
 
Apr 13, 2010
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Actually some of Andreu's statements tell me that it wasn't a full-on combined team program. When he talks about how he chose to jump on the EPO wagon for a short stint in 99 he relates that he did it on his own (AFAIR).

Also the fact that he and Vaughters between them didn't definitely know who did and didn't dope shows it would have been a "team within the team" sort of thing.
 
Jun 19, 2009
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bobbins said:
He's got a pretty bad reputation himself but his insinuations about Motorola could be sour grapes as they let him go at the end of the 95? season.
How does one get a "bad reputation" in Professional cycling?
 
May 6, 2009
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BroDeal said:
Is there really any doubt that all members of Armstrong's TdF squads were jacked? Chris Horner pointed out how ridiculous it was to have the final twenty in a mountain stage be composed of seven or eight Postal riders. The Vaughter's and Andreu's chat session makes it clear that there was a team doping program at Postal. I cannot see Armstrong or Bruyneel taking anyone who was not on the program to the Tour.
Well wasn't Padrnos investigated after the 2001 raids at the Giro? RR indicated that George went clean late 2006 or so. But I do tend to agree, if people like Tony Cruz, Michael Creed, Pat McCarthy, Kenny Labbe, Robbie Ventura were all on a program, then well, it wasn't working.

Dr. Maserati said:
How does one get a "bad reputation" in Professional cycling?
Break Omerta. No?
 
Apr 13, 2010
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craig1985 said:
But I do tend to agree, if people like Tony Cruz, Michael Creed, Pat McCarthy, Kenny Labbe, Robbie Ventura were all on a program, then well, it wasn't working.
Who?.. Ah, I get your point :)
 
Sep 21, 2009
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BikeCentric said:
All I have to say about Hincapie is Tour de France mountain stage win by a large-framed Classics rider. Connect your own dots.
...add wheel sucking to that as well :p
 
Sep 21, 2009
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bobbins said:
He didn't win it from a group of climbers, he won it from a break away so it is a plausible win.
You don't consider Pereiro a climber? Neither did Flandis :p
 
Mar 18, 2009
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BroDeal said:
According to Swart, Motorola did not have a program. In 1995 Armstrong and the senior members decided that everyone on the Tour squad should use EPO. Each rider was responsible for buying their own gear. From Swart's description it does not sound like he was getting any advice about how to use the stuff other than word of mouth from the others. He claimed the EPO had no effect on him, and he complained about how expensive it was. He was probably not using it correctly, using too little because of the expense, or did not use it long enough to significantly raise his Hct. It was a fly by the seat of your pants endeavor instead of an organized program.

He also mentions how the following year Armstrong was ridiculously stronger. "Flying" is the term he used I think.

I also seem to recall something about Hincapie being a "junior" member of the team so he was not one of the senior members pushing for EPO use.
Thanks. I stand corrected

bobbins said:
He's got a pretty bad reputation himself but his insinuations about Motorola could be sour grapes as they let him go at the end of the 95? season.
"Sour grapes" is most people's reaction to every rider who comes clean. That or "he's doing it for the money" (even when they refuse to be paid for interviews)

Of course it always turns out they were dead right.
 
Jun 16, 2009
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issoisso said:
Thanks. I stand corrected



"Sour grapes" is most people's reaction to every rider who comes clean. That or "he's doing it for the money" (even when they refuse to be paid for interviews)

Of course it always turns out they were dead right.
yes. I always love the "sour grapes" and "money motivations.

People reluctantly going on the record (sometimes in court under oath) knowing that they will become an outcast from the community that has consumed almost their entire lives thus far, receive death threats from lunatics, lose their jobs or any chance of working in the sport and be called a liar in the media etc etc.....but yeah they'd do that just to get back at someone or for a $500 interview....
 
May 6, 2009
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WRT to Swart and EPO, I don't suppose the product would of been a lot harder to acquire then what it is nowadays where you or I could go just go online, put in our credit card details and it will be sent to me or you in a few weeks?
 
Mar 10, 2009
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JPM London said:
All 5 doping programs from Danish television can be found here:
http://www.dr.dk/Sporten/Cykling/2007/03/30/140430.htm
although, unless you understand the language you won't get much out of the speak.

You want the one "called Danskerlaegen 2".

Then at 41:14 you get a good look at Conconi's list of his 23 athletes. Two of them were Italian long distance skiers (who incredibly won medals in the Lillehammer Olympics in 94), the rest are cyclists.

Roche is number 8 and he has a massive 6 aliases!

Number ten on the list is an amateur racer, but I'll let you discover exactly who on your own :)

Look at 24.31 as well. That's from the attorney's Ferrari file where I happened on Livingston. A lot of names there, but interestingly enough not someone like Hincapie. To me that's indication that's further indication Hincapie wasn't doping.

Also, if you have a look in the time frame leading up to 41:14 they explain some further Conconi lists labelled SERP, RERP and BONERP, which were diaries for when Rolf Sorensen, Roche and Bontempi respectively got treated with EPO. I think they only actually show the Sorensen diary (it is a Danish program after all) and they note that "over the course of 93 he was treated with EPO 72 times for a total of 134,000 units, which was a lot but not nearly as much as other riders".

Anyway, have fun!
I can't speak Danish and I can't access that link while i'm at work. Care to fill us in on the names please :)
 
JPM London said:
Does anyone have a link or a reference to the files themselves?
As far as I have found out La Republicca publicised the whole list of Conconi-athletes (in which connection Stephen Roche denied any involvement), but I haven't been able to find the article as of yet...
Here's what I found on the la Repubblica website archive (though there are other articles):

Dovete processare Conconi favorì il doping dei campioni
Repubblica — 24 maggio 2002 pagina 50 sezione: SPORT

FERRARA - Il re della medicina dello sport va a processo per aver "favorito" il doping di 33 atleti, ciclisti e fondisti dello sci e dell' atletica. Il professor Francesco Conconi, padre del test sportivo più famoso al mondo, rettore dell' ateneo di Ferrara, si presenterà in Tribunale il 29 ottobre. Dovrà rispondere di frode sportiva. Lo ha deciso il Gup di Ferrara Piero Messini d' Agostini, che ha fatto cadere le accuse di associazione per delinquere e altri reati di cui era accusato il direttore del famosissimo Centro di studi biomedici applicati allo sport dell' Università di Ferrara, ma ha salvato "il cuore" dell' inchiesta del pm Pierguido Soprani. Conconi avrebbe, tra il ' 92 e il ' 97, «eseguito prelievi e analisi su atleti professionisti, curandone la preparazione in virtù delle convenzioni con il Coni e con le federazioni sportive, controllando il loro stato di salute nei periodi di assunzione di eritropoietina, interagendo così con il "trattamento" e comunque agevolando, favorendo e contribuendo al doping degli stessi atleti». Conconi non è accusato di aver commesso il delitto (somministrazione di epo per migliorare i risultati), ma di averlo favorito sì. Assieme a Conconi, sono accusati il biologo Ilario Casoni, che aveva seguito gli sciatori e i corridori della GewissBallan e Giovanni Grazzi, collaboratore di Conconi nonché medico della Carrera, e quindi in quegli anni di Pantani e Chiappucci. Oltre a questi due, tra gli atleti che secondo l' accusa usavano doping, seguiti da Conconi, da solo o con i suoi collaboratori, figurano i ciclisti Bontempi, Fondriest, Berzin, Gotti, Sorensen, Bugno, il marciatore Maurizio Damilano, gli sciatori Albarello, De Zolt, Fauner. Per Grazzi rimane l' accusa di somministrazione diretta di epo a cinque ciclisti: Bontempi, Chiappucci, Chiesa, Roche e Sorensen. Tra gli atleti seguiti, c' era appunto anche Pantani, per il quale tra le carte di Ferrara si scopre anche un giallo. Un sospetto: che il 6 giugno del 1995, un' analisi del sangue eseguita nel laboratorio di Ferrara dove si recavano gli atleti del Centro di Conconi, sia stata eseguita su sangue che non era del campione. Il sospetto degli inquirenti deriva dal fatto che in quell' analisi il livello di ematocrito, spia dell' uso di Epo, risultò di 45, cioè assolutamente normale. Un dato che però è difficilmente compatibile con i risultati di altre analisi dello stesso periodo: l' ematocrito di Pantani era di 57,6 il primo maggio, dopo l' incidente a Sant' Arcangelo di Romagna, di 56 il 22 giugno secondo il «file dblab» del laboratorio di Conconi, addirittura di 60,1 il 18 ottobre. Senza tener conto che lo stesso 6 giugno, nel «file dblab» il valore indicato è di 56. Stesso giallo per un altro ciclista, Checchin. Secondo il gup, per Conconi e Casoni si deve considerare l' aggravante «della violazione dei doveri inerenti a una pubblica funzione, per programmi finanziati con denaro pubblico», mentre essendo caduta l' accusa di peculato (uso del laboratorio a scopo privato), Conconi non deve lasciare l' incarico universitario. «Speravamo sul totale proscioglimento, ma la montagna ha partorito il topolino - ha commentato l' avvocato Luigi Stortoni, difensore del professore -. Il giudice ha ricondotto a ben poca cosa l' accusa mostruosa e profondamente infamante che era stata costruita. Rimane la frode sportiva, ridotta ad una agevolazione per alcuni atleti. Contestiamo che sia vero: questa ultima pagliuzza del grande cumulo creato dal Pm sarà ****zata via». Diverso il parere del pm Pierguido Soprani: «È vero che il gup ha ridimensionato le accuse, ma ha confermato la contestazione principe, ossia le pratiche fraudolente a fine di doping sugli atleti e la loro punibilità in base alla legge 401 dell' 89 sulla truffa sportiva». Per il professore del Coni Sandro Donati, il grande accusatore del doping, «una catena si è finalmente spezzata». Per la prima volta, un giudice sostiene che competizioni sportive, (Giro, Tour, Olimpiadi, campionati mondiali), vennero alterate dal doping. Trentatrè atleti assunsero epo «e alterarono le prestazioni». Nel periodo dei cinque anni preso in esame da Messini d' Agostini, ad esempio, si svolsero le Olimpiadi invernali di Lillehammer (ori Albarello, De Zolt, Fauner, Manuela Di Centa). Poi Berzin nel ' 94 vinse a sorpresa la LiegiBastogneLiegi e il Giro e spuntò la stella di Pantani. - DAL NOSTRO INVIATO LUIGI SPEZIA

Conconi begot Ferrari and Ferrari begot LA. And anyone who doesn't believe that is either a fool or a hypocrit.
 
Sep 24, 2009
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bobbins said:
He's got a pretty bad reputation himself but his insinuations about Motorola could be sour grapes as they let him go at the end of the 95? season.
Yeah, the same as Frankie, sour grapes!:rolleyes:

bobbins said:
He didn't win it from a group of climbers, he won it from a break away so it is a plausible win.
He still had to ride up the mountain at the end of the second week of the Tour. They let Pereiro and GH go but it wasn't like the peloton was walking their bikes.


JPM London said:
Also one unlikely win does not a doper make...
It's clear from both Swart and Andreu that until LA's reign ended, to even just finish the Tour required doping.

Just a couple of quick questions. Why are you guys so heavily invested in both idolatry and mythology?

Pro riders are nothing like you. Why do you find it necessary to identify with them and protect them in the face of mountains of evidence?
 
Mar 17, 2009
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rhubroma said:
Here's what I found on the la Repubblica website archive (though there are other articles):

Dovete processare Conconi favorì il doping dei campioni
Repubblica — 24 maggio 2002 pagina 50 sezione: SPORT

FERRARA - Il re della medicina dello sport va a processo per aver "favorito" il doping di 33 atleti, ciclisti e fondisti dello sci e dell' atletica. Il professor Francesco Conconi, padre del test sportivo più famoso al mondo, rettore dell' ateneo di Ferrara, si presenterà in Tribunale il 29 ottobre. Dovrà rispondere di frode sportiva. Lo ha deciso il Gup di Ferrara Piero Messini d' Agostini, che ha fatto cadere le accuse di associazione per delinquere e altri reati di cui era accusato il direttore del famosissimo Centro di studi biomedici applicati allo sport dell' Università di Ferrara, ma ha salvato "il cuore" dell' inchiesta del pm Pierguido Soprani. Conconi avrebbe, tra il ' 92 e il ' 97, «eseguito prelievi e analisi su atleti professionisti, curandone la preparazione in virtù delle convenzioni con il Coni e con le federazioni sportive, controllando il loro stato di salute nei periodi di assunzione di eritropoietina, interagendo così con il "trattamento" e comunque agevolando, favorendo e contribuendo al doping degli stessi atleti». Conconi non è accusato di aver commesso il delitto (somministrazione di epo per migliorare i risultati), ma di averlo favorito sì. Assieme a Conconi, sono accusati il biologo Ilario Casoni, che aveva seguito gli sciatori e i corridori della GewissBallan e Giovanni Grazzi, collaboratore di Conconi nonché medico della Carrera, e quindi in quegli anni di Pantani e Chiappucci. Oltre a questi due, tra gli atleti che secondo l' accusa usavano doping, seguiti da Conconi, da solo o con i suoi collaboratori, figurano i ciclisti Bontempi, Fondriest, Berzin, Gotti, Sorensen, Bugno, il marciatore Maurizio Damilano, gli sciatori Albarello, De Zolt, Fauner. Per Grazzi rimane l' accusa di somministrazione diretta di epo a cinque ciclisti: Bontempi, Chiappucci, Chiesa, Roche e Sorensen. Tra gli atleti seguiti, c' era appunto anche Pantani, per il quale tra le carte di Ferrara si scopre anche un giallo. Un sospetto: che il 6 giugno del 1995, un' analisi del sangue eseguita nel laboratorio di Ferrara dove si recavano gli atleti del Centro di Conconi, sia stata eseguita su sangue che non era del campione. Il sospetto degli inquirenti deriva dal fatto che in quell' analisi il livello di ematocrito, spia dell' uso di Epo, risultò di 45, cioè assolutamente normale. Un dato che però è difficilmente compatibile con i risultati di altre analisi dello stesso periodo: l' ematocrito di Pantani era di 57,6 il primo maggio, dopo l' incidente a Sant' Arcangelo di Romagna, di 56 il 22 giugno secondo il «file dblab» del laboratorio di Conconi, addirittura di 60,1 il 18 ottobre. Senza tener conto che lo stesso 6 giugno, nel «file dblab» il valore indicato è di 56. Stesso giallo per un altro ciclista, Checchin. Secondo il gup, per Conconi e Casoni si deve considerare l' aggravante «della violazione dei doveri inerenti a una pubblica funzione, per programmi finanziati con denaro pubblico», mentre essendo caduta l' accusa di peculato (uso del laboratorio a scopo privato), Conconi non deve lasciare l' incarico universitario. «Speravamo sul totale proscioglimento, ma la montagna ha partorito il topolino - ha commentato l' avvocato Luigi Stortoni, difensore del professore -. Il giudice ha ricondotto a ben poca cosa l' accusa mostruosa e profondamente infamante che era stata costruita. Rimane la frode sportiva, ridotta ad una agevolazione per alcuni atleti. Contestiamo che sia vero: questa ultima pagliuzza del grande cumulo creato dal Pm sarà ****zata via». Diverso il parere del pm Pierguido Soprani: «È vero che il gup ha ridimensionato le accuse, ma ha confermato la contestazione principe, ossia le pratiche fraudolente a fine di doping sugli atleti e la loro punibilità in base alla legge 401 dell' 89 sulla truffa sportiva». Per il professore del Coni Sandro Donati, il grande accusatore del doping, «una catena si è finalmente spezzata». Per la prima volta, un giudice sostiene che competizioni sportive, (Giro, Tour, Olimpiadi, campionati mondiali), vennero alterate dal doping. Trentatrè atleti assunsero epo «e alterarono le prestazioni». Nel periodo dei cinque anni preso in esame da Messini d' Agostini, ad esempio, si svolsero le Olimpiadi invernali di Lillehammer (ori Albarello, De Zolt, Fauner, Manuela Di Centa). Poi Berzin nel ' 94 vinse a sorpresa la LiegiBastogneLiegi e il Giro e spuntò la stella di Pantani. - DAL NOSTRO INVIATO LUIGI SPEZIA

Conconi begot Ferrari and Ferrari begot LA. And anyone who doesn't believe that is either a fool or a hypocrit.
hell, it looks like eyetallion, who could believe any of that?
 
Apr 13, 2010
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buckwheat said:
Just a couple of quick questions. Why are you guys so heavily invested in both idolatry and mythology?

Pro riders are nothing like you. Why do you find it necessary to identify with them and protect them in the face of mountains of evidence?
Obviously I can't answer for others than myself, but I don't find any of the above a valid description of myself.

I started this thread to get into detail about whether specific people doped and when they might have started. How on earth you can make the above conclusion based on that is beyond me :)
 
Sep 24, 2009
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JPM London said:
Obviously I can't answer for others than myself, but I don't find any of the above a valid description of myself.

I started this thread to get into detail about whether specific people doped and when they might have started. How on earth you can make the above conclusion based on that is beyond me :)
You said about Hincapie; "one unlikely win does not a doper make."

My conclusion is that you don't believe Hincapie doped based on what you wrote.

Listen, Hincapie was training with Ferrari. He doped..
 
May 6, 2009
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JPM London said:
Obviously I can't answer for others than myself, but I don't find any of the above a valid description of myself.

I started this thread to get into detail about whether specific people doped and when they might have started. How on earth you can make the above conclusion based on that is beyond me :)
Opinion = fact.
 
Sep 24, 2009
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craig1985 said:
Opinion = fact.
Hincapie wasn't doped at Discovery? Or, do you abstain citing lack of evidence?:rolleyes:

George really is such a nice guy. With a doped LA and the rest, RH, TB, FL, TH, KL, et. al, getting all the credit.

Wow, Hincapie's amazing that he can keep up and even win a mountain stage clean. The dopers stole his whole career.

Imagine he'd be a legend if he wasn't content to carry LA's bags and do his laundry.
 
Apr 13, 2010
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buckwheat said:
You said about Hincapie; "one unlikely win does not a doper make."

My conclusion is that you don't believe Hincapie doped based on what you wrote.

Listen, Hincapie was training with Ferrari. He doped..
Well, I said what I said :)
Which wasn't that Hincapie is clean, but merely that winning a race does not necessarily mean he's guilty of doping.

I've seen the Ferrari connection only on the Ferrari entry in Wikipedia. Can you point me to something more?

Apart from what I get from the Vaughters/Andreu IM conversation, where they pretty much say they'd be disappointed if he was doing it, I have very little knowledge on Hincapie and doping, so have no real opinion either way... So again, if you can point to anything I'd be happy to digest it :)
 
Jul 13, 2009
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JPM London said:
Well, I said what I said :)
Which wasn't that Hincapie is clean, but merely that winning a race does not necessarily mean he's guilty of doping.
That has been dealt with before. The forum is not in the business of proclaiming anyone guilty or innocent, but concerned with finding out what most likely happened.
 
Aug 6, 2009
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JPM London said:
Well, I said what I said :)
Which wasn't that Hincapie is clean, but merely that winning a race does not necessarily mean he's guilty of doping.

I've seen the Ferrari connection only on the Ferrari entry in Wikipedia. Can you point me to something more?

Apart from what I get from the Vaughters/Andreu IM conversation, where they pretty much say they'd be disappointed if he was doing it, I have very little knowledge on Hincapie and doping, so have no real opinion either way... So again, if you can point to anything I'd be happy to digest it :)
You sound like a defense attorney. We here don't have the evidence you're looking for-the type that can get a rider convicted without a shadow of a doubt.

We conjecture based on the ridiculousness of certain athlete's preposterous feats, and try as best we can to connect the dots of circumstantial evidence, some which are stronger than others.

If you feel the need to be "convinced" to such an extent maybe you should look elsewhere. Because quite frankly such evidence that you're asking for does not exist on the public record. If it was, Hincapie would have been nabbed a long time ago.
 
Sep 24, 2009
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JPM London said:
Well, I said what I said :)

I have very little knowledge on Hincapie and doping, so have no real opinion either way... So again, if you can point to anything I'd be happy to digest it :)
I have audio, video, audiovideo, fingerprints, DNA on syringes and needles with residue of various pharmaceuticals, credit card receipts, transcripts of Interpol interviews, sworn witness affidavits, videos from UAV's (drones), polygraph exam results.

Just PM me your address and I'll Fedex you the stuff pronto.;)
 
Jul 25, 2009
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All the guy said is he hasn't formed an opinion on Hincapie yet and wanted to know if there was any more info available. That's hardly a doping apologists demand for proof which could stand up in court. Overreact much?
 
Sep 24, 2009
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I Watch Cycling In July said:
All the guy said is he hasn't formed an opinion on Hincapie yet and wanted to know if there was any more info available. That's hardly a doping apologists demand for proof which could stand up in court. Overreact much?
He's giving LA foot massages! What more evidence does he want.;)
 

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