Kimmage on Wiggins

[Adamastor]

Sorry, haven't had time to read all the posts. If this link has been shown before, delete this post:

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/1...n-Wiggins-and-Team-Sky-over-transparency.aspx

My favourite part:
"...That was the 2009 Tour, when Armstrong had come back. I had to leave the race as all of the pieces I had written on Armstrong had been rejected by the newspaper [Kimmage wrote for the Sunday Times at that point – ed.]. That is why I wasn’t on the race – I had left the race early..."

 

[MartinGT]

Already in the Sky thread brother and its Kimmage on Sky as a whole, not really just Wiggins.

 

[Benotti69]

Already in the Sky thread brother and its Kimmage on Sky as a whole, not really just Wiggins.

No but Wiggins was the one who refused to let Kimmage spend 3 weeks with team sky at 2010 TdF.

Wiggins was the only one who had the problem with Kimmage following Sky.

 

[Adamastor]

Already in the Sky thread brother and its Kimmage on Sky as a whole, not really just Wiggins.

sorry and thanks for info

 

[richtea]

No but Wiggins was the one who refused to let Kimmage spend 3 weeks with team sky at 2010 TdF.

Wiggins was the only one who had the problem with Kimmage following Sky.

He could have joined from day 8. I don't understand why Kimmage couldn't be more flexible on this point, he would have got his story. This all or nothing attitude might sound great from certain viewpoints, but from a professional perspective he simply ended up with nothing. If I was his employer I would have taken a dim view on this, you need to meet people half way.

 

[hrotha]

He could have joined from day 8. I don't understand why Kimmage couldn't be more flexible on this point, he would have got his story. This all or nothing attitude might sound great from certain viewpoints, but from a professional perspective he simply ended up with nothing. If I was his employer I would have taken a dim view on this, you need to meet people half way.

Because the story he wanted to write was about Sky and transparency. He wasn't going to do it as advertisement for Sky. If you want transparency, "join us in the second week, after we've already done god knows what" is far from ideal.

 

[rhubroma]

He could have joined from day 8. I don't understand why Kimmage couldn't be more flexible on this point, he would have got his story. This all or nothing attitude might sound great from certain viewpoints, but from a professional perspective he simply ended up with nothing. If I was his employer I would have taken a dim view on this, you need to meet people half way.

Could not disagree more with you here. This isn't about employment or getting the scoop. It's about being completely consistent wirth one's positions and not making any concessions in deed or in principle. Good on the Irishman for settling for nothing less, because nothing less would be a farce. And that’s what this is on Wiggins’ and Sky’s part. A farce.

Like LA hiring then firing Catlin. What integrity and transparency.

In this moment especially no mercy is to be shown.

 

[Benotti69]

He could have joined from day 8. I don't understand why Kimmage couldn't be more flexible on this point, he would have got his story. This all or nothing attitude might sound great from certain viewpoints, but from a professional perspective he simply ended up with nothing. If I was his employer I would have taken a dim view on this, you need to meet people half way.

Meeting people half way in this sport has done nothing. Kimmage was travelling in his own transport. He was going to be there at all times talking to all and sundry before and after stages. Not like he was going to be sharing a bed with Wiggins.

I agree with Kimmage it was all or nothing. It they had nothing to hid it was all. If they had something to hide well they had to make Kimmage wait till they were ready.

The sport always ready with the excuses.

 

[veganrob]

Red flag on supposed transparency by Sky right from the start.

Move ahead now three years....Things become a bit clearer.

 

[Machu Picchu]

He could have joined from day 8. I don't understand why Kimmage couldn't be more flexible on this point, he would have got his story. This all or nothing attitude might sound great from certain viewpoints, but from a professional perspective he simply ended up with nothing. If I was his employer I would have taken a dim view on this, you need to meet people half way.

I think you misunderstand what the story was going to be, Kimmage wasn’t doing some ‘isn’t team sky great’ puff piece that you get in the british press, it was an in-depth look at the running of the team and therefore had to be all or nothing, you couldn’t do it just with the scraps wiggins would make available.

Join us on day 8 would likely lead to other areas of no access down the road.

 

[Benotti69]

I think you misunderstand what the story was going to be, Kimmage wasn’t doing some ‘isn’t team sky great’ puff piece that you get in the british press, it was an in-depth look at the running of the team and therefore had to be all or nothing, you couldn’t do it just with the scraps wiggins would make available.

Join us on day 8 would likely lead to other areas of no access down the road.

Exactly. Well pointed out. It would've shown that Kimmage would accept their terms so they would only show him what they wanted him to see.

 

[richtea]

But you can always see it from another perspective: Wiggins must have known he was going to fail that year before he went into the race, and you could probably imagine that having a journalist would add to the pressure of those early days in the race and make things things worse (particularly given the bluster associated with both Sky's entry to the sport and his move to the team). If the team as a whole was amenable to Kimmage joining them at the beginning, I would doubt the refusal was much to do with covering up untoward activities.

Obviously you could argue it was just a front and they used Wiggins as an excuse to get shot of an irritation. And you are right to point out that access may not have been widely granted from Day 8, but we don't know that for sure. Full access from days 8 to 23 would still have given the insight into the running of the team he was looking for.

 

[Benotti69]

But you can always see it from another perspective: Wiggins must have known he was going to fail that year before he went into the race, and you could probably imagine that having a journalist would add to the pressure of those early days in the race and make things things worse (particularly given the bluster associated with both Sky's entry to the sport and his move to the team). If the team as a whole was amenable to Kimmage joining them at the beginning, I would doubt the refusal was much to do with covering up untoward activities.

Obviously you could argue it was just a front and they used Wiggins as an excuse to get shot of an irritation. And you are right to point out that access may not have been widely granted from Day 8, but we don't know that for sure. Full access from days 8 to 23 would still have given the insight into the running of the team he was looking for.

No your argument doesn't wash with the Wiggins in 2007, who was anti doping, who was lamenting the doping and talking about the heores in the gruppetto. Why would he be worried about a journalist being there to record clean teamsky? The TdF is crawling with media.

Kimmage is not someone who will make his presence known and dominate his space. Kimmage is the right person having been there done that.

No the deal was Kimmage to get full access. On arrival in Amsterdam he was told this had changed at the last minute. How much else was going to change? After getting the guarantee of access etc now it was gonna change. It was obvious he was gonna be given the runaround.

 

[GoGarmin]

Thank you for posting this as I had not seen it. Very disappointing as Kimmage is a pretty good barometer, for me, on who I should and should not trust in the peloton.

Wiggins appears to be a grade-A ****er himself.

 

[The Valley]

Maybe it's because Kimmage is an arrogant hypocrite? Calling others out for doping when he himself was a doping cheat? I mean, I kind of like Kimmage despite his obvious ego, and he was right to call out Armstrong like he did, but I can see why someone wouldn't want him around.

 

[Benotti69]

Maybe it's because Kimmage is an arrogant hypocrite? Calling others out for doping when he himself was a doping cheat? I mean, I kind of like Kimmage despite his obvious ego, and he was right to call out Armstrong like he did, but I can see why someone wouldn't want him around.

what a pile BS.

What doping did Kimmage do? Was it career long? Did he fess up? Did he try and cover it up?

Where has Kimmage shown an ego?

I can see why a friend of Armstrong's might not want him around.

 

[BotanyBay]

So, Wiggins thinks that Kimmage is a tosser. Got it. Kimmage thinks the same of Wiggans as a result. Sky befuddles Kimmage by working with a doc from Rabobank's bad systematic doping years.

Yet Kimmage likes Vaughters. Vaughters didn't P-O Kimmage by canceling his VIP tag-along ride during the TDF

Vaughters likes Allen Lim. Hired him, in-fact. Allen Lim was liked by Floyd Landis (when Floyd Landis was a doper). And if I'm not mistaken, credible Floyd had some things to say about Lim's past "help". Was that just the beer talking again?

Also, some Aussie rider got himself and the DS tossed from Garmin for it "being noticed" that he was visiting one of the recently charged docs. And JV knew damn well that he'd been seeing this doc. But when the press gets a sniff, and some adept Clinic people make similar notice, said rider and DS get sacked.

How is this stuff not reconciled? I've been badly trashed for not giving JV the free pass that Kimmage gives him. The only additional thing that Wiggans has done beyond being on a team that works with a suspect medical worker is not liking Kimmage. Yet JV has similar skeletons (apparently not noticed or publicized by Kimmage).

So reconcile it. Call me vile. G'head.

*And the hard part in this? I like Paul Kimmage. But I think he offers JV too much of a hall-pass, using his own street cred as a dope fighter.

 

[Benotti69]

So, Wiggins thinks that Kimmage is a tosser. Got it. Kimmage thinks the same of Wiggans as a result. Sky befuddles Kimmage by working with a doc from Rabobank's bad systematic doping years.

Yet Kimmage likes Vaughters. Vaughters didn't P-O Kimmage by canceling his VIP tag-along ride during the TDF

Vaughters likes Allen Lim. Hired him, in-fact. Allen Lim was liked by Floyd Landis (when Floyd Landis was a doper). And if I'm not mistaken, credible Floyd had some things to say about Lim's past "help". Was that just the beer talking again?

Also, some Aussie rider got himself and the DS tossed from Garmin for it "being noticed" that he was visiting one of the recently charged docs. And JV knew damn well that he'd been seeing this doc. But when the press gets a sniff, and some adept Clinic people make similar notice, said rider and DS get sacked.

How is this stuff not reconciled? I've been badly trashed for not giving JV the free pass that Kimmage gives him. The only additional thing that Wiggans has done beyond being on a team that works with a suspect medical worker is not liking Kimmage. Yet JV has similar skeletons (apparently not noticed or publicized by Kimmage).

So reconcile it. Call me vile. G'head.

*And the hard part in this? I like Paul Kimmage. But I think he offers JV too much of a hall-pass, using his own street cred as a dope fighter.

JV refused to discuss his time at USPS with Kimmage. It is in the big interview Kimmage did with Vaughters. I am sure it will be somewhere to read, but JV absolutely refuses to discuss it.

Not sure if kimmage commented about Lim at Garmin. i cant imagine he let it pass without a mention.

But hey no one is perfect, except Armstrong and Wiggins of course

 

[BotanyBay]

Not sure if kimmage commented about Lim at Garmin. i cant imagine he let it pass without a mention.

He very conveniently lets it slide, as he lets the JV / USPS issue "lack of transparency" slide as well.

Kimmage is not as tenacious as he purports himself to be. JV knows that Kimmage is a guy you want on your side if you're trying to run a "Clean team".

I wonder why his relationship with Sky soured? You'd think that Sky and Kimmage would have been thick as thieves, right?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

He very conveniently lets it slide, as he lets the JV / USPS issue "lack of transparency" slide as well.

Kimmage is not as tenacious as he purports himself to be. JV knows that Kimmage is a guy you want on your side if you're trying to run a "Clean team".

I wonder why his relationship with Sky soured? You'd think that Sky and Kimmage would have been thick as thieves, right?

You really have no clue - I cannot get in to the Times site where Pk interviewed Lim but it was commented on here at NYVelocity:

He came at you both barrels blazing, basically accused you of being his supplier. You wanna go on record and clear that up?

AL: Yeah, it's really funny. Paul is a great guy, and I'm really close friends with Paul. I wouldn't say that he accused me of anything, let alone being Floyd's supplier. I'm not even a medical doctor. So it came across as him grilling the **** outta me, eh?

And also you wrote upthread, "And JV knew damn well that he'd been seeing this doc" - if you read the actual emails you will see that it a complete surprise to JV, so again thats complete fabrication on your part.

 

[Benotti69]

He very conveniently lets it slide, as he lets the JV / USPS issue "lack of transparency" slide as well.

Kimmage is not as tenacious as he purports himself to be. JV knows that Kimmage is a guy you want on your side if you're trying to run a "Clean team".

I wonder why his relationship with Sky soured? You'd think that Sky and Kimmage would have been thick as thieves, right?

Nope. I read the article and he pushed JV on it. JV wouldn't budge. What can he do?

JV is super smart guy. He works all the angles very well. Even coming in here to drop some posts plays to his clean image.

Kimmage's relationship soured with Wiggins due to Wiggins new found love with Armstrong. Kimmage still has a relationship with Brailsford as far as i know. It aint love but Brailsford has not spoken badly of or black listed him.

No i woudln't have thought Kimmage and Sky would have been as thick as thieves. The Sunday times did not print his articles from 2009 TdF when he called Armstrong the cancer of cycling.

Considering Kimmage is no longer employed by the Sunday Times, is it because he would be trying to write about Team Sky and what he would be seeing he would be calling it as he did to Shane Stokes the other day who was then blocked by Wiggins today?

Kimmage never professed to be anything other than an ex pro who called it as he saw it. now he a journalist who calls it as he sees it. He even admitted that he can makes mistakes as hec alled Kohls mountain stage win wrong.

You do Kimmage a grave injustice.

 

[BotanyBay]

You really have no clue - I cannot get in to the Times site where Pk interviewed Lim but it was commented on here at NYVelocity:


And also you wrote upthread, "And JV knew damn well that he'd been seeing this doc" - if you read the actual emails you will see that it a complete surprise to JV, so again thats complete fabrication on your part.

He claims to have not noticed the doctor's name. Thing is, he knows the clinic name AND the docs name VERY VERY WELL.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

He claims to have not noticed the doctor's name. Thing is, he knows the clinic name AND the docs name VERY VERY WELL.

Of course he would know the name "VERY VERY WELL"- so?
You said "And JV knew damn well that he'd been seeing this doc" .... thats quite different.

 

[BotanyBay]

Of course he would know the name "VERY VERY WELL"- so?
You said "And JV knew damn well that he'd been seeing this doc" .... thats quite different.

He'd been paying the bills for a while. Guess you didn't notice that. Sorry, I forgot you were one of the fisherman from Galilee.

JV won't account for the USPS era. Hires Allen Lim ... despite Floyd the truth-sayer (remember your prophet Floyd, right?) saying that Lim was the EPO supplier. JV pays the bills for months for the SAME DOPING DOC THAT HE WAS PROBABLY USING AT USPS and later says "Gee, I had no idea, you're fired!".

So, Kimmage can't squeeze water out of a rock, gets a VIP ride in the TDF caravan with JV, falls in man-love with the guy and is willing to overlook the obvious because of all JV has done for "clean racing".

Sky commits 1/3 of those crimes, and because he gets shunned by a Johnny-Rotten-like Wiggans, he's willing to say THEY'RE dirty.

I'm just saying, Kimmage is in man-love with a guy who is just as dirty (if not dirtier) than the current guy he WISHED to be in man-love with.

I'm not saying that Sky is clean. I'm saying that Kimmage has lowered his standards and is easily lobbied (as are so many of the Clinic regulars)

 

[Dr. Maserati]

He'd been paying the bills for a while. Guess you didn't notice that. Sorry, I forgot you were one of the fisherman from Galilee.

JV won't account for the USPS era. Hires Allen Lim ... despite Floyd the truth-sayer (remember your prophet Floyd, right?) saying that Lim was the EPO supplier. JV pays the bills for months for the SAME DOPING DOC THAT HE WAS PROBABLY USING AT USPS and later says "Gee, I had no idea, you're fired!".

Paying what bills? To whom, when?

As for Lim - PK spoke to him before Landis confessed, so PK actually grilled him just through association.

So, Kimmage can't squeeze water out of a rock, gets a VIP ride in the TDF caravan with JV, falls in man-love with the guy and is willing to overlook the obvious because of all JV has done for "clean racing".

Willing to overlook what obvious?
JVs doping, he didnt - but JV refused to answer.

Sky commits 1/3 of those crimes, and because he gets shunned by a Johnny-Rotten-like Wiggans, he's willing to say THEY'RE dirty.

I'm just saying, Kimmage is in man-love with a guy who is just as dirty (if not dirtier) than the current guy he WISHED to be in man-love with.

I can only conclude that you read things with your agenda already in place - this is from the VN Kimmage article:

Kimmage isn’t accusing Wiggins of doping; he’s saying that he, and the team, have not been as transparent as they promised. He also states that the team should expect questions as leaders of the Tour de France, but that Wiggins has not handled this well.