Kittel Tweet

[martinvickers]

Pretty much yeah.

We all knew that Kittel is a hypocrite. Taking on the weak guys is easy (and yes calling out armstrong is weak, beating a dead horse)

Become finally useful for the cycling sport Kittel and call out sky. Show you really mean it.

Stay a hypocrite (or idiot who fails to notice it) or become this guy you claim to be.

Again, picking favourites. You want him to name who YOU find suspicious, not what HE does.

He may not agree with you about Sky, you know!

 

[Netserk]

I agree. But nobody in here knows exactly what Kittel does know. So no-one in here, your goodself included, is in a position to say he's not breaking omerta...

Perhaps because Kittel hasn't shown any knowledge/intell.

 

[martinvickers]

it is according to skyborg fans. Under 6.0 W/kg = clean, above = doping. Sky ride at the human limit.

Take it to a sky thread, Fleur. On topic.

 

[IndianCyclist]

First of all the tweet. It doesn't say clearly who or why. It could the 2nd & 3rd place riders or it could be that the winner's team simply did not do enough work in the tour/stage.

The winner's performance is said to be incredible because
1) he was a nobody who became a hero from zero. So have a lot of others
2) he beat established European climbers of 3rd level quality in questionable form
3) the power output that he put out in the climb was high > 6 w/kg. Is it not possible for the power output of top climbers eg. Rodriguez to be greater than 7 w/kg at short distances Also the other riders(2 unknowns from Cofidis) were not that far off
4) Local Conditions & Heat - Local riders are expected to do better.
Its difficult to conclude based on just a single race of the performance of a rider on whom nobody has any data. Only time & enough data can tell.

Lets assume that he doped and that Kittel is saying that he doped. Then Kittel is correct. But this is an insignificant race and an insignificant amount money is at stake. The local riders are paid very low salaries. Their livelihood depends on their participation in these races. What Kittel has done is that he is snatching some stale bread from the mouth of a small time thief. There is a big difference between going after a big crime boss and a small time thief. The USADA went after Armstrong and not after Landis, Vaughters and Co. They just give them a slap on the wrist. The UCI however has prosecuted the lower level riders with a vengeance in the name of antidoping whereas they have tried to protect the big fish. That is known as bullying & hypocrisy. Kittel has done something in the same lines. There is also a certain thing like human decency. If at all Kittel was angry, he could have told Sayar face to face instead of airing it in public. In order to be fair, Kittel should air all the suspicions/rage that he(& the many people around him) has about everybody with incredible performances since it would be an open secret in the peloton as to who is doping.

 

[RHRH19861986]

The thing with Sayar is, that Kittel and others might be jealous on him, because being on a Continental team, Sayar is not supervised by Biological Passport.

The same for Tiernan Locke in 2011 and 2012: at 3rd cat team Endura, no Biological Passport.

This, of course, makes it much easier for these CT riders. They just have to avoid being positive in and out of competition. The development of their blood values remains unnoticed and unknown.

Gabrovskis problem might not have been that he just had "standard" first or second generation EPO available, because this might also be the case for domestiques in WT teams. His problem might have been that he wasn´t careful enough, certainly used too much and too often. It´s difficult, though, because if he had used less, certainly would have been slower.

Kittel, for me, is a ridiculous man. He rides 90 days a year against opponents of which 95% dope, and doesn´t have the courage to complain. Now, he points at Sayar, who´s an easy victim.

To point at Sayar, Kittel, firstly, himself should be clean, which I doubt; so he even less should speak out.

Cycling doesn´t get any cleaner by cursing on other cyclists. First step, Mr Kittel, would be to speak about Erfurt blood UV treatment.

 

[martinvickers]

That's different though, that was as reaction on presented truth. What Kittel does here is wildly accusing someone for winning. He even claims he saw it, which I doubt.

Just loosely calling random people dopers is not gonna help anything.

Oddly, I agree with you. I think Kittel may have got it wrong. But I ain't going to attack the guy for breaking omerta - i wish they'd all do it. Then it wouldn't be so random, would it.

But it doesn't detract from the Clinic kiniption which has taken place, which was my main point.

There are some posters in here who have thought long and hard, who've read into it, and are convinced Sky dope. Maybe their a bit biased for other reasons, maybe not, but the geniunely and firmly believe it because they've looked into it in detail. Dear Wiggo is the obvious example. LS, Hitch, the Dr And you ought to at least take those posters seriously.

And there's a lot of eejits just don't like 'em for far baser reasons and whose cheif raison d'etre is sarcasm. And they know who they are. And they are, by and large, the ones going bananas over the 'wrong kind of omerta breaking.

I repeat. Jesus wept.

 

[Netserk]

Oddly, I agree with you. I think Kittel may have got it wrong. But I ain't going to attack the guy for breaking omerta - i wish they'd all do it. Then it wouldn't be so random, would it.

What Kittel did was not breaking the Omerta.

 

[martinvickers]

Perhaps because Kittel hasn't shown any knowledge/intell.

I agree. But we should not just assume he doesn't have it. That's just playing to our own prejudices.

And GOD KNOWS, plenty in here don't seem to need much in the way of intelligence, in any of its meanings, to accuse all and sundry...

 

[martinvickers]

What Kittel did was not breaking the Omerta.

in your opinion.

And we, everyone of us, have opinions, Netserk. like a**holes. and sometimes full of the same stuff.

 

[Netserk]

And GOD KNOWS, plenty in here don't seem to need much in the way of intelligence, in any of its meanings, to accuse all and sundry...

You don't think there is a difference?

 

[martinvickers]

You don't think there is a difference?

A difference between what and what?

 

[Netserk]

Between speculating in a forum (anonymously) and to call out a colleague that you think that he has cheated you (without backing it up with any arguments)

 

[ChewbaccaD]

The high and mighty road of being so little that you cannot stand being told you are wrong.

But this stuff with Kittel is about one thing only. Consistency. It means little if you attack the weakest kid in the playground. That's just posing. Posing for a group to get them to accept you. Behavioural dynamics in motion. Kimmage understood this. He has always gone for the route of the cause. The core power or the symbol of power. Yet all you're sitting here doing is cheering a guy whose sole media agenda this year has been to put on the "I'm clean badge and wave it loudly." He's paying his omerta dues. I half expect him to upgrade from Argos Shimano next season. The peloton has it's own rules. Those rules are the rules Marcel Kittel plays by. Everything pro cycling does is a show. A charade. One giant magic show.

Like the truth can compete with that. The usual test is time. Time reveals all. If Kittel remains at Argos, then yeah. Probably just peeved this one off time. Or simply lacking the nads to say what he really feels about cycling as a whole. Either way, he's still playing by omerta's rules. Even a clean rider has to play by the cycling rule book. Kittel's actions will show how much he believes in clean cycling. Right now, he reeks of David Millar. No excuses, it's cyclists who have to call out dodgy riders. But they must be CONSISTENT. Pick on all the names. Big, medium and small dopers. Not just the puny little chump doping to make ends meet. That's almost beyond pathetic and gutless. Better to say sweet F#&% all. But then that would remove the symbolism you adore. The camouflaged actions that you deem as 'progress' of a clean peloton.

Good luck with the naivety. Don't be sitting here thinking the naysayers, or whatever term you use, are evil. If we were, you'd be dead (not through our hands, but your own), broke, in a ditch crying or about to be conned for everything you own simply because you really are that gullible and easy to manipulate. You fanboys have no back bone. No moral fibre. The wind blows, you blow with it. There is a sucker born every minute and you were one of them.

Post of the thread so far.

 

[Pentacycle]

in your opinion.

And we, everyone of us, have opinions, Netserk. like a**holes. and sometimes full of the same stuff.

It isn't an opinion.

Omerta implies that you're not allowed to express what you KNOW about doping use, not what you THINK. That's the main difference we're talking about here.

 

[martinvickers]

Between speculating in a forum (anonymously) and to call out a colleague that you think that he has cheated you (without backing it up with any arguments)

Well, yes. I think the former is far worse. I've FAR more time for a rider, under his own name, doing something, than anything in here. I'm slightly shocked you'd argue otherwise...

 

[martinvickers]

Post of the thread so far.

circular back slap. good stuff.

 

[martinvickers]

It isn't an opinion.

Omerta implies that you're not allowed to express what you KNOW about doping use, not what you THINK. That's the main difference we're talking about here.

And I'm saying NETSERK doesn't know what it is Kittel may or may not know. So he can't say whether Kittel's broken omerta or not. It's Netserk's OPINION that Kittel knows nothing, and is therefore not breaking omerta, but not being clairvoyent, netserk doesn't and can't KNOW kittel knows nothing.

Short of a flipchart and sticky labels, I can't make the distinction much simpler...

 

[Netserk]

If he actually knew something, he would tell it.

He hasn't, so he clearly doesn't know jack.

 

[Pentacycle]

And I'm saying YOU don't know what it is Kittel knows. So you can't say whether he's broken omerta or not. It's your OPINION he knows nothing, and is therefore not breaking omerta, but not being clairvoyent, you don't KNOW he knows nothing.

Short of a flipchart and sticky labels, I can't make the distinction much simpler...

How do you KNOW I don't KNOW he doesn't KNOW something? You can keep turning this around, but Kittel's tweet clearly indicated it was mostly based on gut feeling than factual evidence. I still haven't seen a picture of Sayar's arm, that's something useful.

 

[martinvickers]

If he actually knew something, he would tell it.

He hasn't, so he clearly doesn't know jack.

Sorry, that is not remotely provable. Just your opinion. The validity of which we have already discussed.

 

[martinvickers]

How do you KNOW I don't KNOW he doesn't KNOW something? You can keep turning this around, but Kittel's tweet clearly indicated it was mostly based on gut feeling than factual evidence. I still haven't seen a picture of Sayar's arm, that's something useful.

sorry, the YOU in this refer's to Netserk, not you pentacycle, I've edited it. Go re-read and you may see my point.

 

[Pentacycle]

sorry, the YOU in this refer's to Netserk, not you pentacycle, I've edited it. Go re-read and you may see my point.

My post largely corresponds with Netserks, I don't see the problem here. You is a plural as well though. If you want a private conversation, this is not the right place.

 

[The Hitch]

If he actually knew something, he would tell it.

He hasn't, so he clearly doesn't know jack.

You dont know that.

 

[martinvickers]

You dont know that.

That's kinda my point, Hitch

Hell, Netsek may well be right. But He may not be. He can't know. so he can't say whether it breaks omerta or not.

 

[martinvickers]

How do you KNOW I don't KNOW he doesn't KNOW something? You can keep turning this around, but Kittel's tweet clearly indicated it was mostly based on gut feeling than factual evidence. I still haven't seen a picture of Sayar's arm, that's something useful.

No, Pentacycle. It didn't. It did no such thing. That's just how you've interpreted it, based on a bootful of assumptions you can't verify.