Klöden named in Freiburg report

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Apr 11, 2009
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The B***h of it is you need a confession or evidence to out Lance, and so far, none has been forthcoming. Evidence CAN be eyewitness testimony, but there is none of that. Yeah yeah, so he sues people who talk public smack about him and so do I. I worked in a law firm for several years proving contractors were guilty of defrauding the public trough on government contacts and the 'Burden of Proof' in the U.S is an important concept, one which kept me up many late nights making sure scum bags didn't get away with stealing public money. I had to scour millions of pages of documentation to PROVE fraud. I think since Lance is a US citizen, he benefits from the same constitution; PROVE it or SHUT THE F**K UP.
 
shawnrohrbach said:
The B***h of it is you need a confession or evidence to out Lance, and so far, none has been forthcoming. Evidence CAN be eyewitness testimony, but there is none of that. Yeah yeah, so he sues people who talk public smack about him and so do I. I worked in a law firm for several years proving contractors were guilty of defrauding the public trough on government contacts and the 'Burden of Proof' in the U.S is an important concept, one which kept me up many late nights making sure scum bags didn't get away with stealing public money. I had to scour millions of pages of documentation to PROVE fraud. I think since Lance is a US citizen, he benefits from the same constitution; PROVE it or SHUT THE F**K UP.
Let see Armstrong explain in court how artificial EPO ended up in six of his urine samples.
 
Apr 9, 2009
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benpounder said:
And that is sooo much lower than someone whose raison d'etre, seemingly, is achieving top troll status on a cycling website?
He's not a troll, he's just been made hopelessly cynical and bitter by the sport of cycling. :(
 
Apr 9, 2009
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BroDeal said:
Let see Armstrong explain in court how artificial EPO ended up in six of his urine samples.
Don't forget his positive for corticosteriods in the '99 Tour (the test was implemented as a surprise for that Tour similar to the CERA surprise test last year). Armstrong produced a backdated medical exemption form for it after twice stating in press conferences beforehand that he had "no medical exemptions whatsoever."
 
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Anonymous

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so where does this leave micheal rogers, one of the two members of the t-mobile team that as of yet hasnt been linked...?

this is turning into the nazi war hunters where the bad guys are hunted down one by one until there are none left..
 
Mar 18, 2009
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dimspace said:
so where does this leave micheal rogers, one of the two members of the t-mobile team that as of yet hasnt been linked...?

this is turning into the nazi war hunters where the bad guys are hunted down one by one until there are none left..
I just finished Jeremy Whittle's "Bad Blood - The Secret Life of the Tour de France". I cannot find the paragraph now, but in this book he said that, at some stage, Michael Rogers was linked to either Ferrari or Cecchini.
 
Mar 10, 2009
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elapid said:
I just finished Jeremy Whittle's "Bad Blood - The Secret Life of the Tour de France". I cannot find the paragraph now, but in this book he said that, at some stage, Michael Rogers was linked to either Ferrari or Cecchini.
I used to consider the Mapei developmental team clean (an illusion most probably). For sure, it was a wonderful "academy" for young promises like Rogers, Cancellara, Pozzato, Allan Davis, Evans (?),...

The not so clean Sinkewitz was part of it too :p
 
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Anonymous

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elapid said:
I just finished Jeremy Whittle's "Bad Blood - The Secret Life of the Tour de France". I cannot find the paragraph now, but in this book he said that, at some stage, Michael Rogers was linked to either Ferrari or Cecchini.

well from cycling weekly...
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/The_Wednesday_Comment_May_13_article_282483.html
The nine riders due to start the tour that year..

Jan Ullrich - Fired by the team and retired. Ullrich had the good grace to stay retired.

Oscar Sevilla - Fired, and then evaded suspension, sneaked back in and is racing with impunity for Rock Racing.

Serguei Gonchar – Suspended by the new Bob Stapleton-run T-Mobile in May 2007 after registering irregular blood values. Had his contract terminated in June 2007.

Matthias Kessler – Joined Astana in 2007, but was sacked mid-season after testing positive for excessive testosterone levels.

Eddy Mazzoleni – Also joined Astana in 2007. Was implicated in an Italian anti-doping investigation. Finished third overall in the Giro d'Italia before being suspended for two years for doping in April 2008.

Patrik Sinkewitz - Tested positive for testosterone during the 2007 Tour de France. Later in the year he admitted to using EPO and blood transfusions.

Andreas Kloden
– Denied repeatedly that he had travelled to Freiburg with Sinkewitz and Kessler to have a blood transfusion of his own blood, removed earlier and stored, on the eve of the 2006 Tour de France. The publication of a report investigating doping practices at Freiburg claims he had done. Currently on Astana's books, but facing a ban,



which leaves... Giuseppe Guerini & Michael Rogers. as the only survivors..

Youve gotta have your suspicions...?
 
Mar 10, 2009
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dimspace said:
Giuseppe Guerini - retired in 2007 after 9 years with t-mobile/telekom... never done for anything but youve gotta have suspicions.. and 27 is fairly young to be retiring.. unless you thought im gonna get out while i can'
Hmm? He was one of the oldest in the peloton.
 
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Susan Westemeyer said:
Yes, he was 37, not 27.
damn.. does that mean im 38

oh god.. i thought it was still the nineties.. :eek: i will let him off then.. :D
 
Mar 19, 2009
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elapid said:
I just finished Jeremy Whittle's "Bad Blood - The Secret Life of the Tour de France". I cannot find the paragraph now, but in this book he said that, at some stage, Michael Rogers was linked to either Ferrari or Cecchini.
In 2006 T-Mobile forced Rogers, Sinkewitz and Mazzoleni to stop working with Ferrari. At the time we were assured that they would only work with the official T-Mobile doctors, lol.
 
dimspace said:
damn.. does that mean im 38
I tend to get upset when I hear Armstrong or Voigt or Knaven referred to as old, and when I see a 21-year-old, I think, what is a baby like that doing in the peloton?

So now you know that I am older rather than younger..... and I can fuss at myself for getting off-topic!

Susan
 
Mar 10, 2009
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As this is a doping related thread:

After yesterday's stage, Cunego had a bitter taste in his mouth. His words, more or less: "it is not nice not to know who wins a grand tour until a long time after the last stage".

Reading between the lines: "the winner of this Giro will be one of those who went faster than me yesterday. Clearly they are doped and maybe they'll get caught".
 
BroDeal said:
Let see Armstrong explain in court how artificial EPO ended up in six of his urine samples.
BikeCentric said:
Don't forget his positive for corticosteroids in the '99 Tour..."
We've all seen this movie before, no? As far as any reasonable assumption he doped, it goes without question. Anyone looking into it at all can pretty easily determine what truthfully happened and what is that he doped.

But when it comes to the absolute letter of the law, and enforcing rules, that is harder to do. So this is what his followers fall back on.
 
Mar 10, 2009
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Leopejo said:
As this is a doping related thread:

After yesterday's stage, Cunego had a bitter taste in his mouth. His words, more or less: "it is not nice not to know who wins a grand tour until a long time after the last stage".

Reading between the lines: "the winner of this Giro will be one of those who went faster than me yesterday. Clearly they are doped and maybe they'll get caught".
Is there anyone in particular he expects to get caught after the race is over? I mean there are realistically only a couple who can win the Giro... Amongst them, Sastre, Basso, Menchov, Di Luca, Rogers (?), Leipheimer, Lovkvist (?)...

I'd be surprised to see anyone getting caught, since the riders knew before the Giro started, that last year's samples were being re-tested. I mean (yes we have seen it before) really really really stupid to be juiced up now. Were there any last minute 'unexpected' drop outs from certain teams?
 
Glad to hear Cunego appears to be riding clean. His performance showed it. Providing it's so, I tip my helmet to him, and will cheer him all the way to Rome.

But as to his accusations, I honestly don't know. I'd guess because both Basso and DiLuca have tainted pasts, and Astana is, well, Astana, his assumptions aren't that absurd, if a little presumptuous. Still, I'm glad to know which side of the doping line Damiano stands. Good for him.

As to doping - I think it's pretty safe to assume anyone doping at this point is doing autologus doping, and being somewhat micro about it, making it pretty much impossible to catch. I'd suspect many riders are doing this. While Dynepo can be seen if you've got enough in you, it's still not officially "on the list", but you'd be blacklisted if it showed up in your sample (Rasmussen). Still, I'd assume (there's that word again) some riders may be microdosing it. Same with Hemopure, a newer version of human identical EPO. As I have said a few times, God only knows if Repoxygen or Stem-Cell gene doping are being used, their true benefits, or side effects.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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In the report on CN it said that those on the T-mobile team who didn't want to use PED's and the "Doctors" services at the clinic were viewed as outsiders and were soon discarded.
I wonder if that is the reason Cadel never got to ride the Tour when he was with them and soon moved on to another team. They seemed to treat him in a very unusual manner???
 
Mar 10, 2009
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Advancedone said:
In the report on CN it said that those on the T-mobile team who didn't want to use PED's and the "Doctors" services at the clinic were viewed as outsiders and were soon discarded.
I read it the opposite: the track racer imposed to the team by the sponsors (Bartko) was viewed as an outsider, and therefore not offered the "services", and quickly discarded.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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From CN:

"But not all riders were affected. Newcomers or "outsiders" were not welcome. After winning two Olympic gold medals in 2000, track star Robert Bartko was given a contract, apparently at the insistence of the sponsor, but against the team management's wishes. He described himself as an "unwanted child" who had no contact with the doctors, received no training plans, and was gotten rid of as soon as possible."

So was Evans an "unwanted child" or "outsider". He was certainly treated as such. Never got a start at the tour despite very good form.
If you decline the services of the "doctors" surely that would put you on the outside.
 
Advancedone said:
From CN:

"But not all riders were affected. Newcomers or "outsiders" were not welcome. After winning two Olympic gold medals in 2000, track star Robert Bartko was given a contract, apparently at the insistence of the sponsor, but against the team management's wishes. He described himself as an "unwanted child" who had no contact with the doctors, received no training plans, and was gotten rid of as soon as possible."

So was Evans an "unwanted child" or "outsider". He was certainly treated as such. Never got a start at the tour despite very good form.
If you decline the services of the "doctors" surely that would put you on the outside.
Did not Evans spend much of his time on T-Mobile injured? Look at the teams that Evans raced for before T-Mob. Mapei was so dirty that the team's owner disbanded the team in disgust.
 
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Anonymous

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Advancedone said:
From CN:

"But not all riders were affected. Newcomers or "outsiders" were not welcome. After winning two Olympic gold medals in 2000, track star Robert Bartko was given a contract, apparently at the insistence of the sponsor, but against the team management's wishes. He described himself as an "unwanted child" who had no contact with the doctors, received no training plans, and was gotten rid of as soon as possible."

So was Evans an "unwanted child" or "outsider". He was certainly treated as such. Never got a start at the tour despite very good form.
If you decline the services of the "doctors" surely that would put you on the outside.
and that line of thought doesnt really help micheal rogers does it.. :/
 
Here we go again, Kloeden is defending himself, Sinkewitz is an unreliable witness, there is no proof he took any illegal medicine at the clinic, blah, blah, blah.

People wonder why we are sometimes more forgiving of the guys who admit to doping like Millar, Scarponi etc, its because they dont behave like idiots and treat the fans like idiots who know nothing. This is like those who defend Lance, there is no definitive proof against Kloeden here but what do we believe, guilty as hell.

Astana have taken no action, bet Bruyneel is just waiting to see if ASO ban him from the Tour, otherwise I think we will see Kloeden at the Tour as another super-dom to Lance. Kinda a rerun of the Basso/Discovery case. Most serious teams with a shred of decency woulf have booted him already.
 
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pmcg76 said:
Astana have taken no action, bet Bruyneel is just waiting to see if ASO ban him from the Tour, otherwise I think we will see Kloeden at the Tour as another super-dom to Lance. Kinda a rerun of the Basso/Discovery case. Most serious teams with a shred of decency woulf have booted him already.
i think JB probably has other things on his mind right now.. like what new sponsors coca cola are gonna say if he fires the german...

(hang on.. now im getting really political.. coca cola, nazi war effort.. oops.. lets not got there.. :) )
 
Apr 28, 2009
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It's interesting with this thread that as many of you identify, there was (is) a culture within, that riders whom felt/thought or acted in a different manner, to which the team directed, were subsequently "discarded".

That is a believable scenario, when reading all report documents.

Cadel Evans is a client of Dr.Aldo Sassi of the Mapei Sport Centre.

Unfortunately, Cadel broke his collarbone at inopportune moments (3 times in one season i think ?) he was also quite independent in thinking.
He is not a great "people person" or team player, and exercises his own opinions and thoughts.

One question that needs addressing is this :

T Mobile were focused on winning the tour.
they had done so with Riis / Ullrich and were looking for another victory.
They had an organised program to achieve that end, and took all 9 riders to the tour, with that aim.

7 riders undertook a planned program, and were either caught, confessed under duress, or deny.

2 riders remain without implication.

Of the two riders, one retired (i do not think he was/has ever been implicated in anything ???) and the other, remains with a current protour team.

When Sinkewitz confessed, and named riders, the remaining 6 implicated, then either denied, or confessed, depending on the level of hatred at Sinkewitz.
They did not (as far as i am aware) openly name, or criticise each other.

Sinkewitz's best mate was Michael Rogers.

is it credible to believe that t mobile/telekom took 7 riders who doped, and 2 clean riders to the tour ?
 
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