Klöden named in Freiburg report

Page 3 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
A

Anonymous

Guest
Alpe d'Huez said:
Glad to hear Cunego appears to be riding clean. His performance showed it. Providing it's so, I tip my helmet to him, and will cheer him all the way to Rome.
trouble in in these cynical days when a rider stands up openly against doping, we end up getting suspicious..

but i do have, and i hope its not misplaced, faith in cunego

interesting comments from wiggo in his interview today...
""The sport's changed so much in the last few years," he continued, a reference to the progress made in the fight against doping. "2005 I remember slogging it to try and stay in the gruppetto [last group in the mountains]. Now I am already riding back down to the finish when the gruppetto comes up"

very interesting, when we talk about "clean" riders not being able to compete, that brad his putting his chances of a top 20 finish down to there being less dopers..

so when do we start the "anyone above wiggins is a doper, and hes the winner of the clean giro" thread.. :D
 
Mar 13, 2009
65
0
0
dimspace said:
and that line of thought doesnt really help micheal rogers does it.. :/
Sadly, I'd agree. :(

Evan's though had some good form before the 04 TDF. He had just won the Tour of Austria. Here is the offical T-mobile response from CN:

"T-Mobile team manager Walter Godefroot responded to surprise, not least of which that of the rider himself, following the announcement of a Tour de France roster which does not include Cadel Evans. Winner of the recent Tour of Austria, Evans has found good condition in time for the Tour, which he expected to be the focal point of his season.

According to Godefroot, the decision was made in light of Evans' injury-plagued season last year, notably his three collarbone fractures. Leaving Evans out of the Tour was evidently a decision for Evans' own good.

"Evans is a strong climber," Godefroot commented on the team's website. "He would of course be very important to us had we selected him, but we are protecting Cadel by not including him in our line up for the Tour. Last year Cadel had three serious crashes, breaking his collarbone each time.

"The first week of the Tour is going to be very hectic, therefore, the risk is too great that Cadel might crash and be forced out of the Tour through injury," Godefroot explained."

Now look at the team line up:

T-Mobile Team

11 Jan Ullrich (Ger)
12 Rolf Aldag (Ger)
13 Santiago Botero (Col)
14 Giuseppe Guerini (Ita)
15 Sergei Ivanov (Rus)
16 Matthias Kessler (Ger)
17 Andreas Klöden (Ger)
18 Daniele Nardello (Ita)
19 Erik Zabel (Ger)


Some (in fact probably all) of those names were being treated by the "Doctors". So was Evan's on the "outside". Considering the lame excuse by the team you would think that more was going on.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Advancedone said:
Some (in fact probably all) of those names were being treated by the "Doctors". So was Evan's on the "outside". Considering the lame excuse by the team you would think that more was going on.
well yeh.. of that list ony guerini and rogers have never had evidence of doping thrown at them.. (i held off from saying convicted, kloden still being ongoing)
 
Advancedone said:
What's that about????
In BigBoat's world, not even Christophe Bassons was clean....


Re: Kloden. Astana intend doing nothing, until they receive "proof".
Obviously, a 63 page dossier on the Freiburg investigation, from the Germans,
doesn't constitute sufficient grounds.....

I expect their copy will be lost in the post, until post tour.:rolleyes:
 
Mar 10, 2009
7,269
1
0
PuncturedTyre said:
is it credible to believe that t mobile/telekom took 7 riders who doped, and 2 clean riders to the tour ?
If 7 is a lot (out of 9; systematic doping) because they thought they could get away with it. I even believe, if systematic doping actually existed, that these teams sent their lesser Gods to a bunch of races, to test what they could get away with. This could either be done by not telling the riders what is injected, or by giving them a fat contract to act as a guinnea pig to probe testing methods. When they do get caught, it wouldn't surprise me that the team has to take a public stance against him, while they still pay him a sack of money under the table.

If 7 is too little (out of 9; systematic doping), it could be that some had to be inducted to the doping program. I think that newcomers, or youngsters on the team are not immediately put on the same program. They first need to see what they are cut out off. It could even be beneficial to take them to a big stage race like the TdF, because without anything, they'll experience how slow they are, and how much it hurts to complete. Subsequently, they'll be gradually introduced to the program, techniques etc. They are learning the trade of administering doping taught by DS, soigneurs, and especially experienced riders, and at one point, they can potentially do it all by themselves (T-Mobile; US Postal). The only problem that remains is to get the doping (Rebellin, Musseeuw etc).

I think that the structural doping within teams has disseminated, but since so many riders have been exposed to using, taking, dosing doping, they have turned into lone rangers, who can do it without the help of their team. The positive effect is that less new riders are getting exposed to using it, so they might be more hesitant to have a solitary go at it (Saesoned Piepoli 'helped' young Ricco?).

Still, to have the best results, riders think they need doctors. On top of that, if you aren't an experienced user, you are probably also a little afraid that administering it wrongly, could result in you being dead (Kohl)... That's why I believe you need to go after the doctors first!
 
The Freiburg report confirms what logically had to be going on in teams that had teamwide doping programs: Anyone who did not go along was ostracized and moved off the team as quickly as possible. The same thing is clear from Vaughters and Andreu's internet chat about Postal. It reminds me of the book Serpico, which was a factual account of corrupt cops.
 
PuncturedTyre said:
is it credible to believe that t mobile/telekom took 7 riders who doped, and 2 clean riders to the tour ?
Nope. It is reasonable to conclude that teams with the top GC spot as their objective did not just have a leader who doped. The entire team doped to support the leader. The same modus operandi must have been used by teams such as Postal and Liberty Seguros and Euskatel.
 
On Giuseppe Guerini, he was on the Polti team in the 90s and finished on the podium once or twice I think. We all know what was going on then, look at who finished around him, Pantani, Gotti, Gonchar, then add on what Jorg Jaksche saw and learned at Polti and people can draw their own cocnlusions.

Not a fan of Evans and wouldnt go out on a limb saying he is clean but I always thought it was strange the way he was treated at T-Mobile.

Brad Wiggins, perfroming well but its not like he is up there competing for stage wins in the mountains, I think if riders had attacked on the climbs, a lot of guys would have been spat out earlier. sad to see his improvements are automatically linked to doping rather than a cleaner peloton. I reserve judgement on Wiggings until hs is up there in week 3.
 
Mar 18, 2009
2
0
0
Wiggins

Wiggins claims to be 6 kg lighter than last year and concentrating on the road instead of the track. Why is another (darker) explanation needed?
 
May 15, 2009
1
0
0
How cares?

shawnrohrbach said:
The B***h of it is you need a confession or evidence to out Lance, and so far, none has been forthcoming. Evidence CAN be eyewitness testimony, but there is none of that. Yeah yeah, so he sues people who talk public smack about him and so do I. I worked in a law firm for several years proving contractors were guilty of defrauding the public trough on government contacts and the 'Burden of Proof' in the U.S is an important concept, one which kept me up many late nights making sure scum bags didn't get away with stealing public money. I had to scour millions of pages of documentation to PROVE fraud. I think since Lance is a US citizen, he benefits from the same constitution; PROVE it or SHUT THE F**K UP.
How cares?

You apply the same attitude as many of the professionals, a lot of wowing about not guilty until proven and absolutely incident. Everyone denies stubbornly until being convinced and a then quite donky-donky I’m sorry, will never do that again.

Cycling has burned a LOT of credibility over the last 10 years. To fall back on a legal framework is technically correct and everyone’s right. But I do not think people, (ex) sponsors etc does not care.

Cycling and professionals has more to prove than just not being convicted. I really feel sorry for the people that live for cycling and are trying to make their way clean.

I can just say that I and many in my surrounding think that companies associated with the cycling sport have lack of judgment. I seriously avoid buying product/services from companies sponsoring professional cycling.

I can just say that I have absolutely no respect for cyclists that have been suspended for being doped or being suspected for doping. Sorry the credibility is not there anymore.
Not proven guilty, LOL, I do not care.

I’m flabbergasted by the attitude many of the professional cyclists have.

Yes, I do love cycling but care very little these days. I really hope that there will be solution on the problem, but it will not come from the professionals that is for sure. Hardly from the team management either. The most likely future solution is no sponsors, no TV, then there would be no interest and definitely no one will care.

Klöden, let me smile.
 
shawnrohrbach said:
The B***h of it is you need a confession or evidence to out Lance, and so far, none has been forthcoming. Evidence CAN be eyewitness testimony, but there is none of that. Yeah yeah, so he sues people who talk public smack about him and so do I. I worked in a law firm for several years proving contractors were guilty of defrauding the public trough on government contacts and the 'Burden of Proof' in the U.S is an important concept, one which kept me up many late nights making sure scum bags didn't get away with stealing public money. I had to scour millions of pages of documentation to PROVE fraud. I think since Lance is a US citizen, he benefits from the same constitution; PROVE it or SHUT THE F**K UP.
You know, it's guys like you that give lawyers a bad reputation and makes us all wonder what criteria these days allows one to enter law school. You're no Cicero that's for sure, nor does your dialectic compare to the former's Cataline Speaches.

In any case, we're not in a court trying to sanction the man so just calm down. And dispense with your rude remarks. We just state what we believe, without having to play by the burden of proof protocal. And another thing, get over yourself, American justice isn't the only worlds' judicial system which abides by such an Enlightenmnet philosophy. For example, here in Europe, things are pretty much the same. You know they're not living in the Dark Ages, believe it or not....And the Enlightement, they invented it.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
BigBoat said:
There's no way in hell Wiggins has been clean! DREAM ON!!

Cheers, :)
ok.. if you wernt before.. you now are officiallly a troll :D
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Rio Bonito 92 said:
Wiggins claims to be 6 kg lighter than last year and concentrating on the road instead of the track. Why is another (darker) explanation needed?


its in reference to a QUOTE by wiggins where he stated how much things have improved regarding doping in the pelaton in that he can acually now keep up with people..

nothing dark.. actually positive for once.. :p

pmcg76 said:
Brad Wiggins, perfroming well but its not like he is up there competing for stage wins in the mountains, I think if riders had attacked on the climbs, a lot of guys would have been spat out earlier. sad to see his improvements are automatically linked to doping rather than a cleaner peloton. I reserve judgement on Wiggings until hs is up there in week 3.
i think this is brads point.. his improvement is because of training, but also because he beleives the pelaton is cleaner..
 
Mar 10, 2009
504
0
0
I'm all for not feeding trolls et al, but that cutesy graphic doesn't fit the persona.

That's the beauty of the "ignore" feature. "Ignore", when applied to trolls etc. works without hampering continuity or credibility--neither of which trolls and their cohorts contribute.

Mercy, can't people tell when they're being played, wound up, button-pushed?
 
Mar 18, 2009
2,442
0
0
shawnrohrbach said:
The B***h of it is you need a confession or evidence to out Lance, and so far, none has been forthcoming. Evidence CAN be eyewitness testimony, but there is none of that. Yeah yeah, so he sues people who talk public smack about him and so do I. I worked in a law firm for several years proving contractors were guilty of defrauding the public trough on government contacts and the 'Burden of Proof' in the U.S is an important concept, one which kept me up many late nights making sure scum bags didn't get away with stealing public money. I had to scour millions of pages of documentation to PROVE fraud. I think since Lance is a US citizen, he benefits from the same constitution; PROVE it or SHUT THE F**K UP.
I know I shouldn't respond to the troll, but ... Doping is now a criminal offense in many countries and people committing crimes in foreign countries are tried by the laws that govern that country, not the country of citizenship. In regards to the USADA, the legal laws and their rules of governing guilt or innocence are very different. The same argument (prove it or forget it) can be used for all professional cycling (look at the fallout from Operation Puerto where many riders are still without contracts because of suspicions alone, and the same may also be true [unlikely] for Kloden because at this stage much of the evidence comes from a notoriously inconsistent Sinkewitz), so you can continue in your own fairy land world. Just click your heels twice when you want to get back to reality.
 
gandalf said:
Cycling has burned a LOT of credibility over the last 10 years. To fall back on a legal framework...Cycling and professionals has more to prove than just not being convicted...I’m flabbergasted by the attitude many of the professional cyclists have...Yes, I do love cycling but care very little these days. I really hope that there will be solution on the problem, but it will not come from the professionals that is for sure. Hardly from the team management either. The most likely future solution is no sponsors, no TV, then there would be no interest and definitely no one will care.
Good post Gandalf. I think you put it very aptly. But I hope you'll keep posting and not go away. I for one agree that things are still quite dark. But I have hope, and believe that slowly things are changing for the better. There is a tremendous wave of antagonism against doping all the way down to the core of almost everyone except some cyclists, trainers and management. Hang in there and help us keep the pressure on the teams and riders to stay clean, and speak out against doping.

A few comments though even without much money, the doping will curtail, but not be eliminated. Kayle Leogrande was able to purchase several doses of EPO for about $500. Most any pro rider can afford that. But if enough revenue sharply drops and it's certain that it's attributed to doping, then, and maybe then, authorities will be more serious about stopping it.

Another thing to remember is that the Tour makes the riders, not the other way around. We could lose the top 50 contenders heading into the Tour for whatever the reason - sickness, crash, doping, teams financial collapse, etc - and the guys that ride at the front of the peloton, even if going slower and not familiar names, would still be cheered on, and have their names in the record books of history after it was over and we'll talk about them, instead of who we talk about now.

dimspace said:
I think this is brads point.. his improvement is because of training, but also because he beleives the pelaton is cleaner..
I think there is some truth to this. Christian Vande Velde said the speeds on the climbs in 2008 were slightly slower than 2007, and slower still than 2006. How much slower? I don't know, someone else can play Numb3rs with it. But while I don't believe that we are seeing a clean peloton, I do agree with Brad, and others, that things are cleaner, certainly than they were 5-15 years ago. I think we're seeing less riders doping - and I'd guess by both his words and his performance, Cunego is riding clean - and those that are doping, are doping less. But it's certainly not 1985, no.

tifosa said:
I'm all for not feeding trolls et al, but that cutesy graphic doesn't fit the persona.
As I said before, BigBoat is not a troll. He's too knowledgeable. What he is, is hopelessly bitter and jaded from all the doping scandals over the last forever now it seems and sees little or no hope. I tried to give him an avatar the other day, I thought it was kind of cool and fit him, but he didn't use it:



elapid said:
In regards to the USADA, the legal laws and their rules of governing guilt or innocence are very different. The same argument (prove it or forget it) can be used for all professional cycling (look at the fallout from Operation Puerto where many riders are still without contracts because of suspicions alone....
We've reached a strange point now. Koldo Gil was named initially in OP, but later removed. No one would sign him though. He offered his DNA to the UCI to help clear his name so he could race again, and the UCI declined. He was forced to retire this year. Roberto Heras was suspended for EPO over three years ago. After his two-year suspension was up, the UCI insisted that no ProTour team could sign him - contradicting that they let Basso, Scarponi and others sign with ProTour teams. Roberto couldn't even get a reasonable contract with a small Continental team last year. He tried again this year, and nothing. And he's actually pretty contrite about his past if you see him interviewed. He doesn't all out confess, but is anything but hiding behind a legal team. Blackballed for being caught doping at the wrong time - even though everyone else was probably doping too.

I think Sinkewitz is giving slippery statements because he'd like to avoid jail time, as the penalties in Germany for doping are very, very harsh. Which is why I, and others have said we really need someone like Sylvia Shenk at the head of the UCI.

Unfortunately the UCI is like the old Soviet Politburo with Premier Verbruggen firmly entrenched, with his top kommander, General McQuaid in charge. Until there is a total putsch there, there will only be incremental changes in the fight to truly clean up the sport.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
i too thought maybe bigboat was valid.. but when you cant even mention brads name and his recent comments without the "brad clean..you must be joking" stance then i know hes beyond help.. :D

but i think the comments of brad and cunego are very interesting but also positive.. lets hope this is how the whole pelaton feels..
 
Mar 19, 2009
1,311
0
0
dimspace said:
i too thought maybe bigboat was valid.. but when you cant even mention brads name and his recent comments without the "brad clean..you must be joking" .


Blabla bla ha ha ha! NOBODY finishes a Grand Tour clean right now under the current administration. There are riders pulling almost 7 watts per kilo at FTP DOPED. Not partly doped, not 50% doped, not 75% doped. 100% DOPED! I dont care what your favorite guy says or you think he is. I look at numbers and I look at what history says about pro cycling. NO MATTER what your hero says or does it doesnt mean he is not doped.

"Everybody dopes, good guys like Tyler and bad guys like Lance." Prentice Steffan, current Garmin Slipstream team doctor.

Larsson of Saxo Bank did a bloody (pun intended!) 486 watts for 31 minutes at Amgen California race and he did not win that TT. Any clean rider of 77 Kilos would never ever get above 400 watts undoped. NO WAY he'd get it to 420 no matter how talented.

you see it comes down to the overall pace. If 100 guys are blood doping with their own blood than nobody finishes clean because the pace on the climbs means a clean talent would fall so far behind they would be time cut. The fact that everybody is so damn close shows that 100% of the pack is doped.

"Its bike racing not moto GP" -Lance Armstrong.
 
Mar 10, 2009
504
0
0
dimspace said:
so how do you ignore someone.. hes depressing me now.. :eek:
Click on "User CP";
click on "Edit ignore list";
add the trolls' names;
as many as you like;
feel somewhat vindicated again;
repeat as needed.

There's only so much drivel one can endure, for the rest of it, at least they offer "ignore".
 
Mar 10, 2009
420
1
0
He may be a troll, but it's refreshing to have a troll with new arguments. I never heard before of using power meters as doping busters. :p
 
dimspace said:
so where does this leave micheal rogers, one of the two members of the t-mobile team that as of yet hasnt been linked...?

this is turning into the nazi war hunters where the bad guys are hunted down one by one until there are none left..
Funniest quote I have ever read on the topic of doping. One of my teammates in Italy was on the Saeco powerhouse Giro winning team w/ Gibo...and well, let's just say that he (my teammate) didn't learn what he (my teammate) was doing in 2006 in 2005...he learned it a long time prior...
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
S The Clinic 2

ASK THE COMMUNITY