Kwiat Beats the wheelsuckers! Best thing of worlds?

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Best thing of worlds?

  • All of it! Vino couldn't have done it better

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Angliru

Angliru

Mar 10, 2009
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Netserk said:
Please watch it again. Gerrans pulled twice, it was only GVA and Gallopin who didn't contribute. Gerrans contributed almost as much as Matti did. Valverde did more than Matti (bigger difference between those two's contributions than SG's and MB's contributions).
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The only time I saw Gerrans on the front was on the descent in an aerodynamic tuck, not pedaling, immediately passed by the 3 to 4 riders in his group. The Universal footage must have shown the other times that some here are referring to.
 
blackcat

blackcat

Mar 13, 2009
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Netserk said:
sagan-t-shirt.png
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ok. so this puts into stark relief his podium "hands".
 
nhowson

nhowson

Oct 9, 2014
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Why the Gerrans hate?

Okay, so we have a rider that wins by playing to his strengths and sprinting from a small group and a rider that attacks on the downhill and that's the only way he's going to win.

This is literally the best part of cycling, different styles, conflict in tactics. If Gerrans pulled them home, then that's ripe for Valverde to come around him and win anyway, furthermore, Gilbert was riding his heart out anyway, and he is a better pursuer than Gerrans will ever be. Would it have been useful if Gerrans tried a pull himself with that in mind?
 
B

Bushman

Jun 3, 2012
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nhowson said:
Okay, so we have a rider that wins by playing to his strengths and sprinting from a small group and a rider that attacks on the downhill and that's the only way he's going to win.

This is literally the best part of cycling, different styles, conflict in tactics. If Gerrans pulled them home, then that's ripe for Valverde to come around him and win anyway, furthermore, Gilbert was riding his heart out anyway, and he is a better pursuer than Gerrans will ever be. Would it have been useful if Gerrans tried a pull himself with that in mind?
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Well, Kwiatkowski packs a really good sprint as well and could have saved it for the sprint, which would be playing it safe. But he didn't play it safe, he risked ending out of the top 10 by attacking earlier and it earned him the gold medal, that is why he receives so much praise for his ride.

And noone is saying that Gerrans should have closed the gap to Kwiatkowski by himself, but had he taken just one pull on the flat he could possibly have been sprinting for 1st instead of 2nd.
 
Libertine Seguros

Libertine Seguros

Feb 20, 2010
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nhowson said:
Okay, so we have a rider that wins by playing to his strengths and sprinting from a small group and a rider that attacks on the downhill and that's the only way he's going to win.

This is literally the best part of cycling, different styles, conflict in tactics. If Gerrans pulled them home, then that's ripe for Valverde to come around him and win anyway, furthermore, Gilbert was riding his heart out anyway, and he is a better pursuer than Gerrans will ever be. Would it have been useful if Gerrans tried a pull himself with that in mind?
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Gilbert isn't Tony Martin. A group chasing cohesively will always have more of a chance of catching a lone leader than a lone chaser. The only one in that group absolved of blame for not doing a turn is van Avermaet, because he had a teammate in the group pulling for him.

And the thing is, the dislike for Gerrans is not about this one instance where he has refused to do a turn even when it would have been beneficial for him to do so, then moaned afterwards that he felt he had the legs to fight for the win (so why didn't he, you know, use them so that he COULD fight for the win?). It's because that is his career modus operandi. Back in the Crédit Agricole/Cervélo days, he was a moderately interesting stagehunter. Which he gave up to become a guy who came 7th in the uphill sprint in the Ardennes Classics and be continually overrated as a challenger because of it. He developed his sprint from this to the point where now, in moderately bumpy races when Sagan is off form or absent, he is the hands down favourite. And yet, he expects people to tow him to the line every time. He never animates any race, never adds anything to any race, just stays with the group as it thins out, sits in without putting his nose in the wind and then hopes that what his group is sprinting for at the end is 1st place.

It's an inherently negative riding style that relies on others racing equally negatively in order to enable him to be competing for the win. It adds nothing to the race, and because he is reliant on others doing the work for him to be able to compete for the win, it means that he only competes for the win in defensively raced, negative races, and thus when he wins it has become emblematic of poor quality racing entertainment.

For Levi Leipheimer, sitting on in the mountains and beating the stronger climbers in the TT was the sensible way for him to accumulate a palmarès. It made him successful, but it also helped make him extremely unpopular and people didn't enjoy watching him race. When Wiggins was stomping the field all year in 2012, it wasn't fun. The races weren't exciting, because Wiggins knew he could just wait for the TT, stomp everybody and then ride at a strong and constant tempo suited to his style. The HTC train wasn't enjoyable to watch; it was defensive and controlling, and the result was never in doubt because of the iron grip they had on the leadout. And so the case is with Gerrans. How he races is the best way for him to accumulate results (except in examples like the Worlds, where it enabled him to get a great placement but also prevented him having the chance of a win), but we as fans don't watch specifically for the end result. We watch because we like the sport, so we want to be entertained, and riders that entertain us will always be more interesting than riders that don't. Simon Gerrans doesn't entertain anybody except the narcoleptic.
 
nhowson

nhowson

Oct 9, 2014
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You've got to have negative and positive riders though. Otherwise everything in the mountains goes into W/kg because everyone is attacking and riding at their own pace. I agree that Gerrans isn't exciting, but is mocking him and revelling in his loss really necessary to get that across?
 
T

Tournesol

Feb 19, 2014
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Not everyone revels in Gerrans losing, tactically astute rider who has won two monuments with limited abilities, i would congratulate anybody who could do that but that doesn't mean to say people have to enjoy it.
 
Angliru

Angliru

Mar 10, 2009
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nhowson said:
Okay, so we have a rider that wins by playing to his strengths and sprinting from a small group and a rider that attacks on the downhill and that's the only way he's going to win.

This is literally the best part of cycling, different styles, conflict in tactics. If Gerrans pulled them home, then that's ripe for Valverde to come around him and win anyway, furthermore, Gilbert was riding his heart out anyway, and he is a better pursuer than Gerrans will ever be. Would it have been useful if Gerrans tried a pull himself with that in mind?
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There is a vast difference between "pulling them home" and simply taking a pull/turn on the front. Gilbert was riding his heart out for a teammate so had no reason to leave anything in the tank for the finish. Gerrans could have taken a pull after Gilbert puttered out or even before, he could have initiated the pursuit of the escapee, he said he had the legs. He chose to sit in and wait for someone else to escort him to the win.
 
Netserk

Netserk

Apr 30, 2011
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Angliru said:
There is a vast difference between "pulling them home" and simply taking a pull/turn on the front. Gilbert was riding his heart out for a teammate so had no reason to leave anything in the tank for the finish. Gerrans could have taken a pull after Gilbert puttered out or even before, he could have initiated the pursuit of the escapee, he said he had the legs. He chose to sit in and wait for someone else to escort him to the win.
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Just like Valverde did...
 
Angliru

Angliru

Mar 10, 2009
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Netserk said:
Sure, but it is quite funny how Angliru defends Valverde while blaming Gerrans.
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Show me one example of Gerrans contributing to a pursuit/chase group this year.
As I've mentioned before maybe the coverage I've seen is limited but I recall seeing Valverde on the front prior to the crest of the final climb and then leading to the finish, with Gerrans in tow both times. I saw Gerrans on the front freewheeling on the descent for few seconds. That was the extent of his time in the wind.
 
Hugo Koblet

Hugo Koblet

May 9, 2010
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Netserk said:
Gerrans took two pulls on the descent (more than Gallopin and GVA) and both him and Valverde didn't take any pull where it mattered (on the flat).
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As mentioned earlier, Valverde did actually attack so I don't get the flaming of him? He was more aggressive than 90% of the peloton.
 
hrotha

hrotha

Jun 10, 2010
19,786
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nhowson said:
You've got to have negative and positive riders though. Otherwise everything in the mountains goes into W/kg because everyone is attacking and riding at their own pace. I agree that Gerrans isn't exciting, but is mocking him and revelling in his loss really necessary to get that across?
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What.

You're certainly going to have wheelsuckers. Doesn't mean you *need* them, or that they should be celebrated.

And yes, mocking Gerrans is very necessary. Can't let the negative racing culture spread even more, can we.
 
The Hegelian

The Hegelian

Jul 6, 2014
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Okay, I think I finally get it.

I abstract from the glorious fact that cycling is chess on wheels, where each piece has different qualities and attributes.

And then I love Viatcheslav Ekimov and hate Djamolidine Abdoujaparov.

And then I feel morally satisfied when Ekimov wins and Abdou loses.
 
nhowson

nhowson

Oct 9, 2014
212
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hrotha said:
What.

You're certainly going to have wheelsuckers. Doesn't mean you *need* them, or that they should be celebrated.

And yes, mocking Gerrans is very necessary. Can't let the negative racing culture spread even more, can we.
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Okay I take that back, but you always will have wheelsuckers.
 
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