Lance Armstrong's blood values from the Tour de France looks suspicious and indicate

[Anonymous]

Everyone knows you never go full ***

http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/bc...lm-clip-nobody-goes-full-***-from-ilike2party

Awesome... LMAO.... too good.

 

[Anonymous]

Yes indeed. The level of fitness for a grand tour is so high those during the GC will only get to it perhaps once a year. They use what is known as periodization training throughout the year in preperation for it. If you're not up there I would imagine it would take much greater chunk out of your body's reserves.

Oh, ok. Can you tell me, in the pro peleton, who is elite and fit and who is not?

 

[red_flanders]

You'll find that on a subject like this we're all speculating to some degree. Everybody is doing that - there is no need to get angry about it. It's your belief that rushing to get up to fitness puts no extra strain on the body and effect RBC and all that. I disagree. I think especially for elite cyclists, fitness levels are incredibly important for grand tours.

I'm not angry or speculating. You made a claim. That recovering from a broken collarbone would affect [now clarified] RBC (count?). If you're going to make outrageous claims, you need to back them up. So far you have presented exactly zero evidence to back it up.

For me to question this claim is nothing resembling speculation. It's a simple request.

That I think you're posting disingenuously is speculation. But it is informed by a body of posting which almost invariably includes failing to answer specific questions/rebuttals to your (often farsical) claims.

That I strongly challenge your assertions and and question your motives doesn't make me angry. Just direct.

 

[red_flanders]

You appeared angry because of the way you reacted to what is a pretty common sense layman type of view - less fit and less about to cope = more taken out of the body.

Given that its a fairly logical idea, the onus is on you to say why you think unfit riders will have better blood levels in grand tours. I'm not saying you're definitely wrong but I'm sure you're intelligent enough to agree it appears counter intuitive.

I don't accept it as logical in any way, and you're changing the parameters of the question. What is meant by "un-fit"? Is this different than recovering from a broken bone?

I'll ask again. Show me any evidence that recovering from a broken bone drops your blood count. Or whatever it is that you're claiming.

Saying "unfit riders have lower blood values" is completely different, and a change in your original, unclear, statement. A statement which appears to have no point other than to make an excuse for why Armstrong's blood values appear to decrease normally during the Giro and quite obviously abnormally during the tour.

I also laugh when I think back to his confident comments before Ventoux. Gee, I wonder why he was feeling so strong all of a sudden.

 

[Anonymous]

I'm surprised you don't think it is logical. I think most people would do. Maybe it's because you're getting bogged down on the actual broken bone and missing the glaringly obvious point that its a disruption to the huge training programme. It's got nothing to do with the bone itself. I think most people could work out this was the point I was making.

Okay, your new name is "Full ***."

 

[Dude17]

If the tests were run by the UCI or WADA then the difference is negligible as they use machines that are calibrated with a test sample from the manufacture. The UCI allows for a variable of .03, so the 50% limit is actually 50.03%.

Found the following in poking around on line as to why they probably picked 50% for hemocrit from UCSF.

Normal results vary, but in general are as follows:

Male: 40.7 - 50.3%
Female: 36.1 - 44.3%

 

[TheWestCoast]

This thread has got to be the most depressing thing I have read on the internet this year.

 

[Anonymous]

This thread has got to be the most depressing thing I have read on the internet this year.

Why, because Lance is a doper? Don't let it get you down, we have known it for years and the world hasn't ended.

 

[bianchigirl]

Given the man's propensity to Twitter every last detail of his life isn't it strange that we haven't heard of the severe case of the trots that might account for the 50% drop in his off score during the Tour?

 

[red_flanders]

I'm surprised you don't think it is logical. I think most people would do. Maybe it's because you're getting bogged down on the actual broken bone and missing the glaringly obvious point that its a disruption to the huge training programme. It's got nothing to do with the bone itself. I think most people could work out this was the point I was making.

Okay, that's fine. So now you're saying that disrupted training programs mean that your RBC count will drop off faster than when you're at peak fitness? And that at peak fitness your RBC counts will rise on rest days?

Just trying to get clear on your take on this whole thing.

It would be interesting for you to then explain why his HCT took a jump up just at the beginning of the Giro. I guess it's just all coincidence.

 

[red_flanders]

Just for fun, here's approximately where the collarbone injury happened.

I'll be fascinated to hear how this supports your position.

 

[mikkemus23]

Touché!

Will that troll ever shut up??

 

[Anonymous]

This thread has got to be the most depressing thing I have read on the internet this year.

Yep. The trolling is testing everyone's patience.

 

[Full Retard]

Agreed. You want to try being on the recieving end of it. They've agreed to cut it out now.

I think youv' showned a lot of curage commin on here and facin all thees Lance haters and cancer lovers and pointin out there lys and fabrucations kept up the grate wurk and more power to you

 

[Cobblestones]

That was my point from the first post of course. If his training programme was disrupted then he is obviously less fit, and one would assume this would effect his levels through a grand tour - take more out of him. As I said, I don't know this for a fact but it's obviously a logical line of thinking. You disagree with that and believe being less prepared for a grand tour has no effect on the blood levels during that tour and does not knacker your levels to a greater degree. I've seen nothing to convince me you are correct yet, but i will keep an open mind.

Read the bolded part aloud to yourself a few times, then go here and try to find out for yourself which one applies to your 'logical line of thinking'. A cookie if you get it right the first time.

 

[workingclasshero]

he's on something that's for sure. i'm talking about the tom boonen stuff. not peds.

what else could make a seemingly normal looking person post stuff like this:

(from his twitter)

''Hanging at the house w/ @kikarmstrong going over kid stuff. Lots going on! Giving her a little grief re: her lack of tweets. Haha.''

ffs. he's a right stand-up comedian this feller. i pity the people around him who are paid by him and probably feel they have to laugh when he cracks one of his 'jokes'

such a sad bástard. kik must be kicking herself wondering wtf she was getting up to when she was with him

 

[red_flanders]

That was my point from the first post of course. If his training programme was disrupted then he is obviously less fit, and one would assume this would effect his levels through a grand tour - take more out of him. As I said, I don't know this for a fact but it's obviously a logical line of thinking. You disagree with that and believe being less prepared for a grand tour has no effect on the blood levels during that tour and does not knacker your levels to a greater degree. I've seen nothing to convince me you are correct yet, but i will keep an open mind.

I don't disagree that preparation has an effect on the blood levels. It should have a tremendous effect.

I strongly disagree that it has the effect you suggest, an effect you steadfastly avoid backing up with any evidence. That somehow a break in training 6 weeks before a GT would cause a decrease in RGB/HCT levels, when that is the exact pattern one would normally expect. There is no data to suggest that the collarbone injury had ANY effect on his RGB/HCT levels. You further suggest that a highly trained athlete would have no dropoff in levels during a GT. Both go against bodies of evidence, and thus are illogical. If you have a radical theory on blood data, BACK IT UP, or back off. There is nothing logical about positing theories which go against scientific study without a shred of evidence to back them up.

If you were versed in how to read data, you'd have seen the grapefruit I lobbed up for you in that graph, that being that his collarbone injury came during the longest break in testing shown. In other words, there is very little data to show the collarbone had any effect or not. What we can see, is that by the time he's tested again, the RGB/HCT is in the same place as in the previous test. We have no way of knowing whether it was steady, or if it went wildly up or down.

What is clear is that his levels spike at the beginning of the Giro (sort of suggests he was over any deficiencies due to injury), then drop. To me, this reads as a guy who topped off at the beginning of the Giro then rode normally.

Then in the Tour, he spikes at the beginning then has spikes at each rest day. "Logic" would point a person in one direction, unless they were willfully avoiding looking at that possibility and further, trying to obfuscate a thread with wild, illogical theories, for purposes we can only speculate about.

 

[red_flanders]

I'm not going to respond to the trolls, sorry.

It is responses (or lack of responses) like this which garner you the reactions you get. You will not address obvious facts and flaws in your statements. For this reason, I think you're trolling or getting paid to obfuscate on this forum.

 

[RHitaliano]

I am a scientist and I am saying LA dopes.

I am also a human cycling power calculator / VO2 max. I use television coverage to determine these values.

 

[Full Retard]

I'm not going to respond to the trolls, sorry.

Hah way to stand up to thees fouls

 

[Full Retard]

I am a scientist and I am saying LA dopes.

I am also a human cycling power calculator / VO2 max. I use television coverage to determine these values.

That is slandur sir

 

[Cobblestones]

I'm not going to respond to the trolls, sorry.

Oh well, you squandered another opportunity to learn something. Let us know how that works out for you in the long run.

On second thoughts, don't.

 

[thehog]

Breaking News: Lance suspicious blood values at Tour?

Looks like Big Text couldn't help himself getting back to his old ways.

Armstrong Tour Blood Values Suspicious?
__

9/3 Update: There's another article out now with Jakob Mørkebjerg pointing out that Armstrong's reticulocyte numbers are also unusual, and may be indicative of EPO or transfusions. Some interesting discussion going on here as well.

9/2: A Danish paper is reporting today that "one of Denmark's leading blood researchers believes that Lance Armstrong's blood values from the Tour are suspicious and indicate blood doping." The blood researcher, Jakob Mørkebjerg (ominously google translated as 'James Dark Mountain') claims that Armstrong's blood values stayed the same from the first day to the last day of the Tour, with a spike in the middle. Armstrong's values fell during the Giro, but not the Tour.

Armstrong's Tour values are here, and his hematocrit and hemoglobin on 7/2, 2 days before the start of the race, was 42.8 and 14.3. On 7/25, one day before the last day of the race, it was 43 and 14.5. Also, 7/13 was a rest day, and his numbers rise from 40.7 and 13.7 on 7/11 to 43.1 and 14.4 on 7/14. On 7/20, another rest day, his numbers are 41.7 and 14, and then 43 and 14.5 on 7/25.

The Giro values are here. His values on 5/7, two days before the race, were 43.5 and 14.8. On 5/31, the last day of the race, those numbers were 38.2 and 13.

I hope to speak to some experts in blood doping in the next 24 hours and will report results. To be clear, we're not making any accusations here, just passing along the article. As you can see below, there may be innocent explanations for these values.

The article is here, and below is the Google translation. If there are any Danish readers out there that can verify the accuracy of the Google translation we'd really appreciate it.

Armstrong suspicious blood values

One of Denmark's leading blood researchers believes that Lance Armstrong's blood values from the Tour de France looks suspicious and indicate blood doping

Lance Armstrong impressed in his Tour de France comeback this year with a third place. But maybe it was not surprising for one of Denmark's leading blood researchers, James Dark Mountain from Bispebjerg Hospital, has looked at American's blood values over and they can indicate the use of blood doping, "he DR gate.


Both the number of red blood cells, hematocrit and hemoglobin were essentially the same on the first day and last day of Tour'en, which is quite unusual.


Furthermore, increased hematocrit value during 11th-14th July, representing the middle of Tour'en, 40.7 to 43.1, which is also strange, does Dark Mountain.

 

[thehog]

Armstrong Tour Blood Values Suspicious?

.....................

 

[issoisso]

Seriously, why another topic? This is being discussed to death on the proper one. It has a trillion pages on this subject alone already.

Sorry for the sharp reply, I'm a little bit tired of the subject already