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Lance Armstrong's blood values from the Tour de France looks suspicious and indicate

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Jun 26, 2009
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elapid said:
In a way, I disagree. Armstrong himself said something to the effect of "horses out of donkeys" in regards to Kohl. Yes, every professional cyclist is a superb athlete and is at the pinnacle of their sport. But the response to EPO is not equal, and there are athletes that respond better to EPO than others. Hence, the "thoroughbred out of donkey" moniker.

Thats just Armstrongs arrogance at work. Unfortunately some people take every word spoken literally.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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objective skeptic said:
You guys are entertaining. He's the greatest doper ever, but he forgot his doctor excuse for some skin cream.

Armstrong does make mistakes. He is said to be fastidious about his bike setup and training, yet he rides a TT with the brakes rubbing on his rim and rides another TT and becomes dehydrated. I forget the dates and stages of these TTs, but you could definitely argue that he is not that fastidious about either if he has made simple mistakes like this.
 
Jun 26, 2009
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elapid said:
Armstrong does make mistakes. He is said to be fastidious about his bike setup and training, yet he rides a TT with the brakes rubbing on his rim and rides another TT and becomes dehydrated. I forget the dates and stages of these TTs, but you could definitely argue that he is not that fastidious about either if he has made simple mistakes like this.

Mmmm.....so he is human then?
 
Mar 18, 2009
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beroepsrenner said:
Mmmm.....so he is human then?

Yep, he is human. Who knew, eh?! My point being in response to objective skeptic's statement about Armstrong forgetting to submit his cortisone TUE.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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beroepsrenner said:
Thats just Armstrongs arrogance at work. Unfortunately some people take every word spoken literally.

Drugs used in your time in the professional peloton, presumably amphetamines and cocaine (?), were probably readily available to every rider in the peloton and probably did not affect the overall results. Correct me if I am wrong.

Current drugs and doping schemes can be very expensive and are beyond the finances of the average professional rider. This is one inequality. While you don't like the "thoroughbred out of a donkey" analogy, drugs like EPO do result in different results in different riders and, unlike amphetamines and cocaine, change the overall results. Examples include Ricco, Kohl, Riis, Perez, and, dare I say it, possibly Armstrong. I do not want to disregard the talents of any professional rider, but the results of these riders were out of proportion with their talents and previous results.
 
Jul 9, 2009
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Alpe d'Huez said:
If he fades before the end of the Tour, he'll still drop off the radar quite a bit actually, and we will go back to discussing doping about everyone else as well.

Why don't we start discussing Contador, Schleck and especially Wiggins...?:rolleyes:
 
Jul 16, 2009
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Alpe d'Huez said:
Maybe now that Lance was dropped today, this thread will drop off too.

Wouldn't be ironic, in addition to suffering the indignation of Kloden losing seconds to drag Lance along (for what?), he tested positive? LOL, would be like a fairty-tale ending for the haters.
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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Objective skeptic - you have raised some interesting points in your earlier posts.
The interview where Floyd says that "Lance doped" was not through David Walsh but it was revealed in this
article by Martin Dugard.
objective skeptic said:
.... You have all this circumstantial evidence, but the problem is when you look at motive, it points to him being clean (at least in the later tours)....

Motive is an interesting topic. Firstly LA is an outstanding competitor. He always has been throughout his career. He draws tremendous motivation from being slighted - some call that arrogance but it is a key component of his determination in realising his objectives.
The motive for his return? There are lots - even by not winning the Tour. He is very competitive and realises that he can still compete at the top - hence his comments on last years TdF being "a joke".
He has made a lot of money for himself through race appearance fees - way more than he could through public speaking or other events.
This is also true of the Livestrong brand. I know many on this forum feel the cancer awareness initiative is disingenuous but that is not the point of my bringing it up here- I am just saying that a rising tide raises all boats..

The risk of being caught is minimal - particularly since it is now the UCI who handle the testing at the Tour. Also - as a hypothetical - if he was caught doping he would lose little. He is not getting a salary and all the appearance fees could not be touched. Obviously a positive would seriously damage his name and the LAF -but as I pointed out the chance of getting caught is very small.

I will throw this question out about motive - what possible motive could Betsy Andreu have for her comments? In fact she has a lot to lose, her husband is still in the cycling business and going up against Lance is usually a career ending experience. I have provided this link to an interview with Betsy Andreu - it is long but probably one of the most revealing and insightful on this subject.
Also Frankie Andreu did not see Lance dope- that was never at issue. He did confirm the story about the revelation at the hospital - that is very different.
 
Jun 26, 2009
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elapid said:
Drugs used in your time in the professional peloton, presumably amphetamines and cocaine (?), were probably readily available to every rider in the peloton and probably did not affect the overall results. Correct me if I am wrong.

Current drugs and doping schemes can be very expensive and are beyond the finances of the average professional rider. This is one inequality. While you don't like the "thoroughbred out of a donkey" analogy, drugs like EPO do result in different results in different riders and, unlike amphetamines and cocaine, change the overall results. Examples include Ricco, Kohl, Riis, Perez, and, dare I say it, possibly Armstrong. I do not want to disregard the talents of any professional rider, but the results of these riders were out of proportion with their talents and previous results.

I dont know of anyone using cocaine during my time. The content of your post is quite valid. Instead of using the word donkey, a rider who would normally finish in the "laughing group" who is suddenly at the driving end has to be considered suspicious.
 
Jul 9, 2009
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Alpe d'Huez said:
Of course it is. Wait a year or two when he's not racing anymore, and he'll drop off the radar.

I don't think so - I believe he has political aspirations. There are mentions of (running for) governor of Texas in the not-too-distant future.
 
Jun 18, 2009
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cody_57 said:
I don't think so - I believe he has political aspirations. There are mentions of (running for) governor of Texas in the not-too-distant future.

Good! Nothing like a political contest for the real dirt to come out! :D
 
When Lance announced his comeback last year, my personal opinion on why he was coming back was because he seen Vandevelde finish fourth, supposedly riding clean and thought to himself,

" if Vandevelde can finish fourth riding clean, the Tour must be cleaner so I could win the Tour riding clean and that would **** everybody who ever questioned or doubted me in the past"

I dont know how that sound to others but that is what I honestly felt at the time. Even though I believe he doped before, I believe he might be doing it clean this time which makes his performance even more impressive.
 
Dr. Maserati said:
. I have provided this link to an interview with Betsy Andreu - it is long but probably one of the most revealing and insightful on this subject.

Excellent interview for The Competitors Radio show !
I found the same one with Betsy Andreu a couple months ago and you have also two-part interview with David Walsh

download links

Betsy Andreu

http://www.competitorradio.com/download.php?filename=142Competitors-BetsyAndreau.mp3

David Walsh

http://www.competitorradio.com/shows/139Competitors-DavidWalsh-Part1.mp3

http://www.competitorradio.com/download.php?filename=139Competitors-DavidWalsh-Part2.mp3
 
A

Anonymous

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Its like Armstrong was a completely different rider today...
 
Mar 10, 2009
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Had no acces to i-net and couldn't see the stages live. Today I got back from my trip and watched the Verbier stage and today's stage I had taped.

I can only say, interesting developments in cycling these days.

a 38 year old 'retiree' who looked completely rejuvenated after the Verbier stage, climbing with the best, and a 'former' track racer who climbs better than Sastre... As the latter said in an interview 'you just do what you gotta do'

I am inclined to believe that tomorrow's stage will reveal who is most serious about his program. Can't teach an old dog new tricks huh
 
Mar 13, 2009
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C'mon guys, Armstrong changed to a 100mm stem and set back the saddle 1mm and it made all the difference....

Whats more probable is that he visited the fountain of youth on the day off and drank* the elixir of life :)

*transfused
 
Jul 22, 2009
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Digger said:

Any idea who leaked this phone call to the public, and who is this Stephanie McIllvain besides the fact that she works for Oakley?


Also, you guys have tossed it around a lot, but me being the skeptic that I am (assuming that Armstrong is doped) wonders how does Lance continues to beat the doping controls with their biological rider profiles, hair, urine, and blood samples, etc, etc, going into his 8th season while drug testing all the while has progressively gotten more advanced?

I'd really like to hear a good arguement on how he beats the random tests. And I don't want to hear about the 20 minute shower episode. Hes been tested dozens and dozens of times this year, most of which were random, with no positives.

I mean, is the guy just that good at doping, while others aren't?

And I'm sure when Lance is in France he can't do anything without someone spying on him constantly. Checking the trash bins behind him, etc.

The French would love to catch him doping.

With that being said, are we to assume that Christian Vandevelde and the guys on Garmin are doped too, with part of their platform being racing on a "clean" team?
 
Jul 16, 2009
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Zen Master said:
Excellent interview for The Competitors Radio show !
I found the same one with Betsy Andreu a couple months ago and you have also two-part interview with David Walsh

download links

Betsy Andreu

http://www.competitorradio.com/download.php?filename=142Competitors-BetsyAndreau.mp3

David Walsh

http://www.competitorradio.com/shows/139Competitors-DavidWalsh-Part1.mp3

http://www.competitorradio.com/download.php?filename=139Competitors-DavidWalsh-Part2.mp3

May I thank you for taking the time to post these links. It is 30mb and I downloaded it and really enjoyed it. Encourage everyone to have a listen.