Lance's program was superior? The evidence

[ergmonkey]

Certainly Indurain's sudden improvement had nothing to do with him working with Padilla and Conconi....

Wait, so now Miguel Indurain is a donkey, too?

How about Jan Ullrich? I think he took some drugs--donkey.

Eddy Merckx failed a pee test, right? DONKEY.

Somebody stop me when this line of reasoning starts to make sense...

...how about: Lance Armstrong took lots and lots of drugs and lied about it? What, not bad enough? He needs to be a no-talent-@ssclown, too?

 

[Merckx index]

Lance couldn't climb? Easy enough to spin that one, too: he went from winning races with lots and lots of big hills to winning races with a couple of big mountains; he always had the ability to go uphill, blah blah...

Sort of reminds me of DiLuca.

 

[ergmonkey]

Please show us a solid TT prior to 1994 when he started using EPO.

As to this part, I suppose it goes without saying that anyone who used EPO on their way to a solid TT in 1994 must have been a donkey.

As for being 'youngest' world champ, nobody is going to care about a one-week age gap or a pre-modern-era result: when Fabiani repeats it loud and proud, it's going to stick. And it's going to be a helluva lot closer to the truth than just about anything else he has to say.

 

[ergmonkey]

Sort of reminds me of DiLuca.

Exactly. I never said that transformation is reserved for clean boys...

 

[sartain]

Maybe it's just a turn of speech to reflect the massive improvements from doping, but "donkey" still feels over-the-top to me.

I especially don't like the no-talent-Lance argument because I actually think it can help Lance win the current PR battle that I desperately hope he will lose. Just try convincing the American public that Lance was only a "donkey."

21-year-old donkey world champ:

donkey Fleche Wallone champ:

I think a much more convincing line of argument is simply going to be: Lance used lots and lots of drugs; Lance lied about it, repeatedly; Lance engaged in a massive, illegal cover-up; Lance defrauded a lot of people.

Well, that, and the straightforward argument that Lance is utterly loathsome:

Does anyone see a trace of steroids in those first two photos? Too bad we can't ask Lyle for his opinion on this subject matter. And what's with he cup in the third picture? I guess they must love each other's company so much that they have said everything they need to say, so they just tune each other out for their look at us stroll down the boardwalk.

 

[Polish]

I think a big part of the "Lance could not climb" myth stems from the fact that Lance started riding the TdF early in his career (neo-pro) and would be pulled out of the race before the Big Mountains took their toll.
In hindsight a GREAT strategy.

And the myth that "Lance could not TT" is a joke also. haha.
Heck, Lance was the Father of the Modern TT position for crying out loud.
National Class as a teenager, Top 20 World Class as a young Euro Pro.

 

[Maxiton]

I am talking about this Donkey. The one who could not climb or TT until he met Ferrari

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9ifX50GytY

Man, Big Mig went by him faster than Armstrong went by Ulrich in '05.

I like this comment someone posted under that video on youtube:

So thats where armstrong learned to cheat!

I doubt very much it was where he learned; but I've long thought that if Lance had an "Aha!" moment about EPO, this was it. I'll bet his first words off the bike after that TT were, "I need to be on what he's on."

 

[Polish]

I am talking about this Donkey. The one who could not climb or TT until he met Ferrari

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9ifX50GytY

Where did Lance finish that stage?

Top 20 that's where lol.

Right up there with the Worlds Best TTers in his "neo-pro plus one year".
Most of the Great Cyclists did not even START the TdF in their 2nd year.

World Class TT'er right from the start.

 

[Sanitiser]

Man, Big Mig went by him faster than Armstrong went by Ulrich in '05.

I like this comment someone posted under that video on youtube:

So thats where armstrong learned to cheat!

I doubt very much it was where he learned; but I've long thought that if Lance had an "Aha!" moment about EPO, this was it. I'll bet his first words off the bike after that TT were, "I need to be on what he's on."

I think there's an anecdote between Lance and David Walsh ( back when they were friendly) where Lance is complaining about how slow he was compared to Mig.

 

[Maxiton]

I think there's an anecdote between Lance and David Walsh ( back when they were friendly) where Lance is complaining about how slow he was compared to Mig.

No doubt. It must've sucked getting passed like that on the road. He must have been seething inside.

EDIT: Interesting that the interview was with Walsh, though. Is there any video of it, do you know?

 

[D-Queued]

Please show us a solid TT prior to 1994 when he started using EPO. Certainly Indurain's sudden improvement had nothing to do with him working with Padilla and Conconi....


Of course you know that Lance is not the worlds youngest world champion, not even the 2nd youngest.

Indurain was very solid prior to 1994.

This is a good clip - birth of a future TdF champ. FF to 7:30 - Indurain drops a determined GL without utillizing the high cadence typical of an EPO abuser.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=702mu0o3xXY

Dave.

 

[D-Queued]

And, in '92, equipment could have accounted for most of the time gap. Interesting to see the equipment given that Lemond was the original pro peloton innovator:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVswAZcLI1s&feature=related

LeMond - shifters on TT bars, Tri-spoke + disk, BUT no helmet, no shoe covers, using drop bars, short-sleeves, standard round tubes, standard brake calipers, dropping head down

Bugno - aero helmet, Tri+disk, but standard brake calipers, slow TT frame (bent top tube an aero disaster), shifters on the down tube

Indurain - aero helmet, bull horns & tt bars, shoe covers, full sleeved skin suit, aero tubes, tri-spoke + disk, shifters on the bars, Campy delta brakes

Over 1h19m, the helmet alone probably saved a couple of minutes. That particular helmet tested comparable to Lance's special Giro helmet custom developed a decade later

Dave.

 

[Benotti69]

Don't know if anyone mentioned it, but when Vaughter's moved from USPS to Credit Agricole he was shocked to see how much dope they did on USPS in comparison. They did virtually nothing on CA compared to the daily intakes of PEDs on USPS.

 

[flicker]

And, in '92, equipment could have accounted for most of the time gap. Interesting to see the equipment given that Lemond was the original pro peloton innovator:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVswAZcLI1s&feature=related

LeMond - shifters on TT bars, Tri-spoke + disk, BUT no helmet, no shoe covers, using drop bars, short-sleeves, standard round tubes, standard brake calipers, dropping head down

Bugno - aero helmet, Tri+disk, but standard brake calipers, slow TT frame (bent top tube an aero disaster), shifters on the down tube

Indurain - aero helmet, bull horns & tt bars, shoe covers, full sleeved skin suit, aero tubes, tri-spoke + disk, shifters on the bars, Campy delta brakes

Over 1h19m, the helmet alone probably saved a couple of minutes. That particular helmet tested comparable to Lance's special Giro helmet custom developed a decade later

Dave.

Wow! Was LeMond threatened by the tour organizers or his bicycle sponsors not to use the most advanced aero gear? Or was it a payoff by Indurain or FIFA for Greg not to use the most technologically sophisticated TT equipment of the time.
Unbelievable Greg must have wanted to lose that TT.

What a slip up by a solid pro like Greg.

 

[Cobblestoned]

Don't know if anyone mentioned it, but when Vaughter's moved from USPS to Credit Agricole he was shocked to see how much dope they did on USPS in comparison. They did virtually nothing on CA compared to the daily intakes of PEDs on USPS.

So Waters did choose the wrong team.
He should have gone to Team Telekom, Polti, Fassa, Banesto, Kelme, Once or whatever team to avoid that shock.

Anyway, he couldn't find anything because CA was a solodoper team that buried their dope along the road.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Maybe it's just a turn of speech to reflect the massive improvements from doping, but "donkey" still feels over-the-top to me.

I especially don't like the no-talent-Lance argument because I actually think it can help Lance win the current PR battle that I desperately hope he will lose. Just try convincing the American public that Lance was only a "donkey."

21-year-old donkey world champ:

<snipped>
donkey Fleche Wallone champ:

<snipped>
I think a much more convincing line of argument is simply going to be: Lance used lots and lots of drugs; Lance lied about it, repeatedly; Lance engaged in a massive, illegal cover-up; Lance defrauded a lot of people.

Well, that, and the straightforward argument that Lance is utterly loathsome:

No-one has said he was a 'no talent'.

He was a strong powerful rider - he could climb short sharp hills very well, he could handle the ong distances and he had a good kick for the sprin.
His TT was poor - but I always felt this was an area he could work and improve on.

However his big problem was climbing long cols and his consistencey as he was prone to having a bad(ish) day. Which is why even he admitted he was not a GT rider.

 

[callac]

LeMond - shifters on TT bars, Tri-spoke + disk, BUT no helmet, no shoe covers, using drop bars, short-sleeves, standard round tubes, standard brake calipers, dropping head down

Bugno - aero helmet, Tri+disk, but standard brake calipers, slow TT frame (bent top tube an aero disaster), shifters on the down tube

Indurain - aero helmet, bull horns & tt bars, shoe covers, full sleeved skin suit, aero tubes, tri-spoke + disk, shifters on the bars, Campy delta brakes

Over 1h19m, the helmet alone probably saved a couple of minutes. That particular helmet tested comparable to Lance's special Giro helmet custom developed a decade later
Dave.

I'm pretty sure the comments at the time were that GL was or had been contemplating the hour record, and had made many tests that were showing that no helmet and head down was the best for him. It wasn't an arbitrary decision to stop wearing helmets in TT.

 

[Race Radio]

Indurain was very solid prior to 1994.

This is a good clip - birth of a future TdF champ. FF to 7:30 - Indurain drops a determined GL without utillizing the high cadence typical of an EPO abuser.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=702mu0o3xXY

Dave.

I was referring to Armstrong Pre-1994, not Indurain.

 

[Race Radio]

Wait, so now Miguel Indurain is a donkey, too?

How about Jan Ullrich? I think he took some drugs--donkey.

Eddy Merckx failed a pee test, right? DONKEY.

Somebody stop me when this line of reasoning starts to make sense...

...how about: Lance Armstrong took lots and lots of drugs and lied about it? What, not bad enough? He needs to be a no-talent-@ssclown, too?

Ulrich is another great example. Bunch sprinter who was routinely was dropped in training camp climbs, Podiums at the Tour as a 2nd year Pro on the full program.

 

[flicker]

I'm pretty sure the comments at the time were that GL was or had been contemplating the hour record, and had made many tests that were showing that no helmet and head down was the best for him. It wasn't an arbitrary decision to stop wearing helmets in TT.

Greg might have gotten the hour record with the help of Jackie Simes.

 

[Cobblestoned]

No-one has said he was a 'no talent'.

He was a strong powerful rider - he could climb short sharp hills very well, he could handle the ong distances and he had a good kick for the sprin.
His TT was poor - but I always felt this was an area he could work and improve on.

However his big problem was climbing long cols and his consistencey as he was prone to having a bad(ish) day. Which is why even he admitted he was not a GT rider.

Is that you or did someone hijack your account ?

 

[andy1234]

I am talking about this Donkey. The one who could not climb or TT until he met Ferrari

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9ifX50GytY

Not a great example, Mig was on a different planet that day.
Armstrong actually performed a very respectable TT against some notable TT specialists.

1 Miguel Indurain (Banesto - Pinarello) SPA 1h 15' 58

2 Tony Rominger (Mapei - Clas) SWI + 02' 00

3 Armand De Las Cuevas (Castorama - Maxisport) FRA + 04' 22

4 Thierry Marie (Castorama - Maxisport) FRA + 04' 45

5 Chris Boardman (Gan - Lemond) GBR + 05' 27

6 Bjarne Riis (Gewiss - Ballan) DEN + 05' 33

7 Thomas Davy (Castorama - Maxisport) FRA + 05' 35

8 Abraham Olano Manzano (Mapei - Clas) SPA + 05' 45

9 Arturas Kasputis (Chazal - MBK - Koenig) LTU + 06' 01

10 Piotr Ugrumov (Gewiss - Ballan) LAT + 06' 04

11 Gianluca Bortolami (Mapei - Clas) ITA + 06' 12

12 Nico Emonds (Mapei - Clas) BEL + 06' 16

13 Lance Armstrong (Motorola - Merckx) USA + 06' 23

14 Jean François Bernard (Banesto - Pinarello) FRA + 06' 44

15 Sean Yates (Motorola - Merckx) GBR + 06' 50

16 Djamolidine Abdoujaparov (Polti - Vaporetto) UZB + 06' 52

17 Flavio Vanzella (GB - MG Maglificio - Bianchi) ITA + 07' 15

18 Johan Museeuw (GB - MG Maglificio - Bianchi) BEL + 07' 16

19 Vladimir Poulnikov (Carrera Jeans - Tassoni) URS + 07' 20

20 Viatcheslav Ekimov (Wordperfect - Colnago - Decca) RUS + 07' 22


Armstrong finished less than 1 minute down on Boardman, Riis and Olano, all riders who had a decent TT in them. He beat Bernard, Sean Yates and Ekimov, all riders who you would also regard as decent timetriallists.


Regardles of you opinion on Armstrong, he was never a donkey.

 

[Cobblestoned]

I was referring to Armstrong Pre-1994, not Indurain.

You don't have to mention that, rrrrradio.
We all know that for a long time now.

You can't even leave him out that fun Gurken-thread.

 

[roundabout]

Hehe, Abdu beat Ekimov.

Those were the days.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Is that you or did someone hijack your account ?

Well, that shows your limited view here - I have stated that quite often on this site.