• The Cycling News forum is looking to add some volunteer moderators with Red Rick's recent retirement. If you're interested in helping keep our discussions on track, send a direct message to @SHaines here on the forum, or use the Contact Us form to message the Community Team.

    In the meanwhile, please use the Report option if you see a post that doesn't fit within the forum rules.

    Thanks!

Lancestrong training vs Euro team training

I have to ask, even though Ive been following each season for the last 5 years, What are some key characteristics of the training mindset of European based teams vs a johann and lance based strategy ? Dope or not ( not interested in discussing that here as Ive been looking at the clinic regularly ) there does seem to be differences in the approach to the season as well as individual training and preperation. Old school ? vs New School.

Also have other teams and directors adopted any of the methods by lance and cohorts ? any examples would be good.

Peaking for certain races like the TDF would be one but any others would be a great conversation and teaching for a newbie like myself. Thanks.
 
Jun 19, 2009
5,220
0
0
Visit site
zealot66 said:
I have to ask, even though Ive been following each season for the last 5 years, What are some key characteristics of the training mindset of European based teams vs a johann and lance based strategy ? Dope or not ( not interested in discussing that here as Ive been looking at the clinic regularly ) there does seem to be differences in the approach to the season as well as individual training and preperation. Old school ? vs New School.

Also have other teams and directors adopted any of the methods by lance and cohorts ? any examples would be good.

Peaking for certain races like the TDF would be one but any others would be a great conversation and teaching for a newbie like myself. Thanks.

Probably single biggest difference between Old/New School is rider's taking a more educated course to their results. You can't and shouldn't try to peak for every race.
As for Lance or Carmichael having a new strategy-they were working off of models developed for Bugno, Indurain, Rominger, etc. Carmichael managed to create a franchise business out of hyping his programs but most of the basic information was available to anyone looking. The explosion in coaches and "coaches" is amazing. I reserve the quotes for those technicians that feel everything is analyzable and quantifiable. Old School types would go purely on pedigree and emotion. There should be lots of opinions on training origins, paths.
 
All the europeans are lazy. They just ride around, putting in junk miles with a cadence of 70 RPM. With them, their governments, and their economies mired in the grips of socialism, they have resisted embracing advancements like power meters. They are also gluttons. They train on a diet of sausages and butter. Plus, I have it on good authority that they are stil eating foods containing gluten.

If only they could put down the pies and cakes, and up their cadences to 100 RPM. They might be able to compete with those good old American boys then.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Oldman said:
Probably single biggest difference between Old/New School is rider's taking a more educated course to their results. You can't and shouldn't try to peak for every race.
As for Lance or Carmichael having a new strategy-they were working off of models developed for Bugno, Indurain, Rominger, etc. Carmichael managed to create a franchise business out of hyping his programs but most of the basic information was available to anyone looking. The explosion in coaches and "coaches" is amazing. I reserve the quotes for those technicians that feel everything is analyzable and quantifiable. Old School types would go purely on pedigree and emotion. There should be lots of opinions on training origins, paths.

I couldn't agree more with this. Carmichael's techniques were quite simple and obvious, and it's just what Brodeal below says, the Europeans were lazy, and didn't bother trying new techniques becoz they were stuck/raised in the old skool..

IMO, Carmichael took the 'marathon training' approach and adapted it to cycling, with the sole aim of peaking for one race throughout the year (maybe this equivalent is one of the major marathons in the world)

This is nothing new, it was just 'different' to the common european belief of, 'i'll ride, race a bit, and try and capitalise if/when my form peaks', rather than actually targeted, progressive training techniques.

Another thing, you have to be the best of the best to actually ask your team manager if you can focus on one race per year, as the team invests money in you. Lance could afford to do this, and it's clear that this has been Contador's approach as well.

Other riders that have adopted this approach, I would say are guys like Cadel Evans, Andy Schleck (although those two do have Ardennes classics aspirations as well), Carlos Sastre (in 2008 especially) have all been targeting the Tour, and forgoe the Giro or delibretely hold back in week-long stage races so as to not 'overrace' before the tour. Classic example of overracing would be Menchov in the Giro (which I think was smart) and then was burnt out for the tour.

But of course, guys mentioned like Indurain (Tours), Rominger (Vueltas) also showed that targeted training for a specific goal is the way to really win.

The only problem with targeting one race, is, if you have a bad year, management may turn on you very quickly becuase basically your season looks like a waste (i.e. Silence threatening Cadel to be no#2 after the tour - yet changed their mind when he podiumed Vuelta and won WC.... Also, Rabo threatening Menchov with no#2 behind gesink -see other thread)
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
BroDeal said:
All the europeans are lazy. They just ride around, putting in junk miles with a cadence of 70 RPM. With them, their governments, and their economies mired in the grips of socialism, they have resisted embracing advancements like power meters. They are also gluttons. They train on a diet of sausages and butter. Plus, I have it on good authority that they are stil eating foods containing gluten.

If only they could put down the pies and cakes, and up their cadences to 100 RPM. They might be able to compete with those good old American boys then.

They also do it with European women while the Uniballer hits chicks that look like his mother...well, except for that Olson twin. Anyway, it has to do with the Euro chicks not shaving their leg or underarm hair.

Plus, the Euros like Cadel Evans get busy with kangaroos and stuff...I mean, I know he is from Australia, but we are dealing with Armstrong fans, so anyone outside of the "Real" America is a Euro dude and Australia is close enough to Austria in terms of letters and crap to put them all on the continent.

I think they also still ride wheels with a single cog on each side. Good thing some American invented the quick release so that they can switch real fast at the bottom of a climb...
 
Mountain Goat said:
I couldn't agree more with this. Carmichael's techniques were quite simple and obvious, and it's just what Brodeal below says, the Europeans were lazy, and didn't bother trying new techniques becoz they were stuck/raised in the old skool..

IMO, Carmichael took the 'marathon training' approach and adapted it to cycling, with the sole aim of peaking for one race throughout the year (maybe this equivalent is one of the major marathons in the world)

This is nothing new, it was just 'different' to the common european belief of, 'i'll ride, race a bit, and try and capitalise if/when my form peaks', rather than actually targeted, progressive training techniques.

That is pretty freakin' funny considering that Chris learned everything he knows about racing and training from racing in Holland starting when he was a junior.
THe only thing of importance that Lance did any different was in not trying to win anything else all season. Left him with the best ever TDF record but a mediocre overall record as a pro cyclist
 
Mar 18, 2009
981
0
0
Visit site
Thoughtforfood said:
They also do it with European women while the Uniballer hits chicks that look like his mother...well, except for that Olson twin. Anyway, it has to do with the Euro chicks not shaving their leg or underarm hair.

Plus, the Euros like Cadel Evans get busy with kangaroos and stuff...I mean, I know he is from Australia, but we are dealing with Armstrong fans, so anyone outside of the "Real" America is a Euro dude and Australia is close enough to Austria in terms of letters and crap to put them all on the continent.

I think they also still ride wheels with a single cog on each side. Good thing some American invented the quick release so that they can switch real fast at the bottom of a climb...

TFF you crack me up dude! :D

You would be surprised how many people think I live in Austria and not Australia.

Have also heard some good old yarns about people who were flying to Austria and somehow ended up in Australia.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
msjett said:
TFF you crack me up dude! :D

You would be surprised how many people think I live in Austria and not Australia.

Have also heard some good old yarns about people who were flying to Austria and somehow ended up in Australia.

I have been to Austria, but not Australia. I actually want to visit at some point. Biggest problem for me is my fear of flying. I have been on some pretty long flights, but that one is quite the haul. Oh well, guess I will just have to take the hit if I want to get there.
 
Mar 18, 2009
981
0
0
Visit site
Thoughtforfood said:
I have been to Austria, but not Australia. I actually want to visit at some point. Biggest problem for me is my fear of flying. I have been on some pretty long flights, but that one is quite the haul. Oh well, guess I will just have to take the hit if I want to get there.

It's worth the pain....it's pretty much long haul flights for us Aussies to go anywhere. Except New Zealand....that is nice and close.:p
 
Jul 22, 2009
3,355
1
0
Visit site
msjett said:
Have also heard some good old yarns about people who were flying to Austria and somehow ended up in Australia.

I'd enjoy actually hearing these sorts of stories. I wonder at what point they realized what was happening? haha
 
Sep 22, 2009
45
0
0
Visit site
Try being an internet shopper and checking the postage marks on your stuff when it finally arrives. Amazing how much stuff goes on detours via Austria before it gets redirected down under!
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Hugh Januss said:
That is pretty freakin' funny considering that Chris learned everything he knows about racing and training from racing in Holland starting when he was a junior.
THe only thing of importance that Lance did any different was in not trying to win anything else all season. Left him with the best ever TDF record but a mediocre overall record as a pro cyclist

Thanks for reiterating exactly what I said, but using different words and analogies... :rolleyes:
 
The French have certainly had their fair share of criticism over being lazy trainers. Mr Badger recently gave them a right tongue lashing.

Can't comment upon all this extra training Lance allegedly does. He should, by rights, as a celebrity, find it hard to fit it all in, with his raft of commitments.
Maybe twitter will give us a better idea.

Anyhow, it's fairly obvious that now, Alberto Contador and Andy Schleck train harder than he does.

I think a lot of riders have difficulty keeping up an extensive training regime, having to ride in pro cycle races, for much of the season.
 
May 26, 2009
502
0
0
Visit site
Mountain Goat said:
I couldn't agree more with this. Carmichael's techniques were quite simple and obvious, and it's just what Brodeal below says, the Europeans were lazy, and didn't bother trying new techniques becoz they were stuck/raised in the old skool..

IMO, Carmichael took the 'marathon training' approach and adapted it to cycling, with the sole aim of peaking for one race throughout the year (maybe this equivalent is one of the major marathons in the world)

This is nothing new, it was just 'different' to the common european belief of, 'i'll ride, race a bit, and try and capitalise if/when my form peaks', rather than actually targeted, progressive training techniques.

Another thing, you have to be the best of the best to actually ask your team manager if you can focus on one race per year, as the team invests money in you. Lance could afford to do this, and it's clear that this has been Contador's approach as well.

Other riders that have adopted this approach, I would say are guys like Cadel Evans, Andy Schleck (although those two do have Ardennes classics aspirations as well), Carlos Sastre (in 2008 especially) have all been targeting the Tour, and forgoe the Giro or delibretely hold back in week-long stage races so as to not 'overrace' before the tour. Classic example of overracing would be Menchov in the Giro (which I think was smart) and then was burnt out for the tour.

But of course, guys mentioned like Indurain (Tours), Rominger (Vueltas) also showed that targeted training for a specific goal is the way to really win.

The only problem with targeting one race, is, if you have a bad year, management may turn on you very quickly becuase basically your season looks like a waste (i.e. Silence threatening Cadel to be no#2 after the tour - yet changed their mind when he podiumed Vuelta and won WC.... Also, Rabo threatening Menchov with no#2 behind gesink -see other thread)

I'm sorry but I find what you say total bullsh1t (and besides I think you missed Brodeal's sarcasm). Over ten years ago riders in my team here in Finland were using a training program that focused on one or two peaks in a season (the same kind of periodization that's used in The Cyclist's Training Bible). Everything takes at least ten years to get here from Central Europe so these training methods have been used in europe at least from the '80s.

So riders have known how to train to peak for a certain race. The fact that all riders haven't peaked for one single race in a year doesn't mean that they "tried to capitalise if/when their form peaked". Riders have many different ambitions so everyone doesn't want to peak for a single race but rather aim for glory in various races. I don't judge either approach but it's absurd to say that european racers were too lazy to try new approaches to training. Besides from a population of 300 million USA has had supprisingly few elite riders compared to for example Italy with 60 million. Yes Italy has a much longer tradition with cycling than the USA but you'd think that if the american's training so much better than europeans they'd have more elite riders?
 

Bagster

BANNED
Jun 23, 2009
290
0
0
Visit site
Thoughtforfood said:
They also do it with European women while the Uniballer hits chicks that look like his mother...well, except for that Olson twin. Anyway, it has to do with the Euro chicks not shaving their leg or underarm hair.

Plus, the Euros like Cadel Evans get busy with kangaroos and stuff...I mean, I know he is from Australia, but we are dealing with Armstrong fans, so anyone outside of the "Real" America is a Euro dude and Australia is close enough to Austria in terms of letters and crap to put them all on the continent.

I think they also still ride wheels with a single cog on each side. Good thing some American invented the quick release so that they can switch real fast at the bottom of a climb...

Amazing how the original poster asks a genuine question and still morons like you and brodeal manage to turn it into a hate Lance and everything American fest. You guys really need to get over yourselves because you continually reinforce through your posts your stupidity
 
Sep 21, 2009
2,978
0
0
Visit site
Hugh Januss said:
...
THe only thing of importance that Lance did any different was in not trying to win anything else all season. Left him with the best ever TDF record but a mediocre overall record as a pro cyclist

I can remember other riders doing that quite a few years before LA
Delgado didn't ride the Vuelta in 1988. He chose the Giro to prepare the Tour and was the target of harsh criticism by Spanish media at the time.
And I don't remember Greg Lemmond focusing on anything else than the Tour when he returned after his accident. You may say that Greg is American but he had been riding in European teams since he became pro.
 
Aug 25, 2009
397
0
0
Visit site
bagster said:
amazing how the original poster asks a genuine question and still morons like you and brodeal manage to turn it into a hate lance and everything american fest. You guys really need to get over yourselves because you continually reinforce through your posts your stupidity

+1 .
 
Jun 20, 2009
654
0
0
Visit site
IMHO there is a much simpler answer.

Let's compare the US and Europe. Both have a history of riders who know how to peak for one event - US (Lemond, LA); Europe (Indurain, Rominger). So, I don't think it's about the training methods being different. My theory is that for a Euro rider there is huge pressure to perform in multiple races in their home country whereas US riders in Europe are free to concentrate on just one race. Of course there are anomolies, but I suggest my theory explains the perception that US riders are better at focussing on just one GT.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Bagster said:
You guys really need to get over yourselves

That is actually impossible considering we are the only ones capable of thinking our thoughts and acting upon them. To "get over [our]selves" would involve the cessation of chemical reaction in our brains which I think we both know only happens at death. So you want us to die because you are a fan of Lance Armstrong and don't want to read things that challenge the myth of your hero worship? I think we can all agree that is kind of harsh, no?
 
Aug 19, 2009
612
0
0
Visit site
zealot66 said:
I have to ask, even though Ive been following each season for the last 5 years, What are some key characteristics of the training mindset of European based teams vs a johann and lance based strategy ? Dope or not ( not interested in discussing that here as Ive been looking at the clinic regularly ) there does seem to be differences in the approach to the season as well as individual training and preperation. Old school ? vs New School.

Also have other teams and directors adopted any of the methods by lance and cohorts ? any examples would be good.

Peaking for certain races like the TDF would be one but any others would be a great conversation and teaching for a newbie like myself. Thanks.

I think that the "art" of targeting particular races/points of the season started back in the days when Eddy Merckx was winning everything all year long. So, early '70s. The idea, I believe, was to hope that a rider at 100% could beat Merckx when he was less than 100%. So, personally, I'd define old school as pre-Merckx.

The progression of this philosophy for top riders has been slow. Very slow, because the champions in their day, like Hinault, Lemond, and Indurain faced significant pressure to target other races. Even Lemond at the end of his career got wrapped up in targeting Roubaix and the TdF.

Also, thanks to agressive world-wide marketing, the relative importance of the TdF has increased drastically in the last 30 years. In his last year with Discovery, Armstrong wanted to focus on the Giro and Discovery threatened to pull their $ponsorship if Tex didn't focus on the Tour.

So, in my mind, the Armstrong/Bruyneel strategy is just a reaction to the specific sponsorship pressures they faced, and a progression of Post-Merckx thinking.
 
Thanks for the laughs and information. It does make sense for the superpower's like lance, contador, etc can afford to concentrate on one or two races per year because of the sponsor coverage and prestige. Its a shame that unless you really follow the sport you miss out on the other great athletes who perfrom well all season without alot of glory. Makes me respect George Hincapie, leipheimer etc ( Im american so I notice the american names more, sorry, no offense to the europeans ) even more for consistency. This season I paid more attention to the younger riders because the old names got a season or two left and thats it.
 

TRENDING THREADS