Landis Attacks Vaughters

[Dr. Maserati]

Yeah, the ONLY difference is that JV did not run around accussing the entire cycling profession of doping and blaming everyone but himself for his decisions.

Two other relevant bits:

1. Statute of limitations - there is a point at which people are no longer prosecuted for these things.

And, had Landis just taken his rap, done his time and come back like others rather than engaging in rampant sepculation - he'd be riding his bike again to.

2. Zabel, Riis ring any bells? These admissions should help put allegations of JV in PROPER perspective.

And running around accussing literally ANYONE else riding of doping in no way exonerates or excuses what Floyd did.

At this point it is the ultimate fulfillment of rationalization, "I did it because I had to compete!"

Wrong Floyd, you did it because you chose to .... and you got caught.

Enough with the scarlet 'R'.

Wrong again Gree - Landis did not "run around accussing the entire cycling profession of doping and blaming everyone but himself for his decisions".

"I take responsibility for all the stuff I did," Landis said in the interview. "No one gave me something and said, 'Don't ask what this is, just take it.' I would never have done that. The things I took, I knew what they were, and I spent the time researching what the risks were, and the decisions I made were mine"

http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/cycling/news/story?id=5203604

 

[veganrob]

Yes, because when the nominal trash talk of sports occurs, the best thing to do is accusse anyone who criticizes you of partaking in a vast criminal conspiracy and being doped to the hilt.

Makes perfect sense:

"Floyd seems a bit batty?"

"Yeah, well, you are sleeping with Pat McQuaid, conspiratorially smuggling and using drugs, and being protected by the cycling maphia!"

You know, he could have just said, "Wiggins is a jerk."

Of course, I am sure I will now be held liable for paraphrasing rather than directly quoting Landis.

Yes, he could have, should have, said that. I am not going to claim Floyd is the brightest bulb in the box. And his motives can certainly be questioned. However, he has not said anything so far that I think are lies. There appears to be some big sh%^ going to hit the fan all around.

 

[BroDeal]

http://www.versus.com/blogs/the-experts-opinion/the-inside-story-of-matt-whites-firing/

Looks like Landis is now going after Vaughters and Wiggins. Calling for Vaughters to be suspended from cycling and claiming Wiggins' 2009 TDF blood profile is similar to his in 2006. I'm starting to be a bit confused what Landis' priorities are now.

I suspect that Flandis is off the reservation because something has happened to end his False Claims lawsuit. His behavior has changed, and it no longer appears that his message is being crafted by someone else.

 

[gree0232]

Yes, he could have, should have, said that. I am not going to claim Floyd is the brightest bulb in the box. And his motives can certainly be questioned. However, he has not said anything so far that I think are lies. There appears to be some big sh%^ going to hit the fan all around.

OK, so you don't think he is lying, and other people clearly do.

Do we decide who is clean and who is doped based upon a democratic voting process?

And that is why evidence is needed.

Floyd's comments are all well and good, but, and this is key, they eventually have to be backed up with tangible evidence and/or credible eye witnesses. If Leipheimer and Zabriskie, Hincapie and Jullich had all come forward to validate Floyd's accussations that would say something.

Instead, virtually everyone that Landis blamed came out and said that Floyd was not telling the truth. The only corroberating witness is a guy from the 1990's who never Armstrong dope. A compelling case that does not make.

Ok, giant cycling omerta, got it.

Nevertheless, there should be other forms of evidence. Floyd did not accusse Lance of dabbling in doping, he accussed him of full on systemic, team wide doping. How many blood bags is that for a single Tour of nine riders getting blood doped? When we add in the preparation time and other drugs that Landis claims, like rampant EPO, and others, that is a pretty extensive supply chain. Think Festina.

It is these allegations that have lead to searches for medical waste (oft claimed but never proven) and searches of team vehicles and other sites. Additionally, the whereabouts and random drug testing should, at some point, begin to show movement in the blood or stumble across unusual circumstances (Showergate was driven by more than dislike) that indicate doping and lead to this ever elusive supply chain - a chain that landis claims were being flown in on private jets in a fairly obvious manner than no one seems to be able to find?

Do we really think that the various police organizations and the full instrumentation of WADA would be unable to meeti Armstrong at an airport and search his bags? Is that a large investigative leap?

What Landis said seems to verify the position of the rabid bits of the crowd out there, but, as has been the case for 12 years now, what is missing after the emotional and sensational accussations .... is actual proof to back it up.

People may not like Armstrong, and there is certainly grounds to have had a good look at Armstrong past and methods, but having given it a good look and winding up with .... allegations, I think it is time to move beyond the, "**** is going to hit the fan .... now?" talk and onto the, "Lance is about to retire, put up or STFU," talk.

I mean if everyone on your block was calling your daughter a ****, and every time you checked the story she was clearly not sleeping around, at what point does the continued accussation allow you to tell your neighbors, "STFU!"

Where is that point regarding Armstrong?

 

[Digger]

Wiggins is a disciplined World Class pursuit rider. People in that discipline can move on to climbing TT etc. Wiggins is not a "nothing rider"

Always a class act even if you don't like his mod attire.

move to TT maybe....but to climbing, give me a f***ing break.
Wiggins' wife has some cheek after the a** licking her husband gave the biggest doper in the sports history during the week.
Kudos to Floyd for all this. I believe him to be correct in what he is saying about JV and Wiggins. Someone needs to say it. The sport is absolutely filthy - the politics, the corruption etc. It's all smoke and mirrors, but behind the curtain, it really is a sewer. Right up from lowly domestiques to the DSs, the anti doping agencies and the officials.
Seriously, if you were clean, would you come out as Wiggins has, and say the things he did during the week? At the very least you would say no comment - he knew from his Garmin days exactly the story but he kept on with the Omerta. The only reason someone keeps the Omerta is if you are every bit in the sh** as the rest.
And JV we know you read these threads - people are not stupid or gullible. We all thought the same about the Wiggins' numbers, yet you came on here defending him, when the reality is that you were concerned yourself. If this is true about admitting usage to Travis, then you are every much as part of the problem as most of the rest, because you should have been banned. The fact that nothing was done shows again the corruption that exists, corruption that you are part of. You could blow the sport apart, which is what it needs and you know this full well (something Lemond has said time and time again) - you hide behind this pathetic excuse of trying to fix the problem from the inside out. So JV when you are in the team car and look at Bruyneel driving his car, are you happy that you are doing all you can?
The only way cycling is going to clean up is if people such as yourself have the courage to call it as it is. To tell exactly what you did, what you saw. Talk about the corruption at high levels. Root and branch surgery needs to take place. The Riis', Bruyneels of this world need to be kicked out.
This rubbish about only just finding out about Matt White and Del Moral - seriously, what planet are you on that you think this is plausible? And this is what I am alluding to about politics and corruption. It smells so much like the Gusev incident. Propoganda. Shame you weren't this strict when you tried to sign Contador.........

 

[gree0232]

Wrong again Gree - Landis did not "run around accussing the entire cycling profession of doping and blaming everyone but himself for his decisions".


http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/cycling/news/story?id=5203604

Yeah, he did not accuse the UCI and every American rider still in the peloton, not too mention, blame the cycling omerta for not backing him up (basically every other rider in the peloton), the advertisers who 'enable doping', and is now going after JV, his team, while calling for legalized doping because the anti-doping controls are so ineffective ... that they caught him.

Are these made up?

Maybe you should apply your standards to BOTH sides of the arguement rather than running around accusing people of being liars for noticing ALL the things that people are saying regarding doping in cycling.

The emotionally cartharic method may feel good, even be self validating, but it does NOTHING to solve the actuality of doping in cycling.

 

[mewmewmew13]

I think Armstrong just asked Fabiani to send Floyd a case of Michelob Ultra. This takes the attention off him, even if just for a bit.
I want to see these e-mail(s) Floyd is talking about, until then I will try (and it will be very hard) not to pass judgment on the psychology of Floyd Landis.

Must be a rough day in casa de Vaughters.

Excellent post! ...just made me LOL while drinking my coffee....

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Gree is the Mark Fabiani of the cyclingnews boards. All garbage, all the time.

Let's face it. The fanboys have zero interest in getting to the truth. Their only interest is in protecting the Lance legacy. Nothing else really matters. They are the foot soldiers of omerta. To them, if Lance didn't test positive (other than the 6 times he did) then it means he's clean. You know, like Basso, Ulrich, Valverde, etc.

 

[Willy_Voet]

Who cares, anyway? If Garmin is a UCI-sanctioned fraud this is bigger than LA.

Pure speculation, but if you look at the supposed conversations/messages, the doping by Vaughters was back in his USPS days. I believe this is why he ultimately quit and went off to try something new.

Remember the bee-sting incident? His quotes at the time regarding steroid injections (to bring down swelling) pointed out the absurdity of the rules. It made me think that he knew what others (maybe himself) could get away with, but something that was medically warranted was a 'no-no'.

I don't think Landis's allegations regarding Vaughters have anything to do with his current set-up, except that he believes he did some things while back at USPS but never was subject to a penalty.

 

[veganrob]

OK, so you don't think he is lying, and other people clearly do.

Do we decide who is clean and who is doped based upon a democratic voting process?

And that is why evidence is needed.

Floyd's comments are all well and good, but, and this is key, they eventually have to be backed up with tangible evidence and/or credible eye witnesses. If Leipheimer and Zabriskie, Hincapie and Jullich had all come forward to validate Floyd's accussations that would say something.

Instead, virtually everyone that Landis blamed came out and said that Floyd was not telling the truth. The only corroberating witness is a guy from the 1990's who never Armstrong dope. A compelling case that does not make.

Ok, giant cycling omerta, got it.

Nevertheless, there should be other forms of evidence. Floyd did not accusse Lance of dabbling in doping, he accussed him of full on systemic, team wide doping. How many blood bags is that for a single Tour of nine riders getting blood doped? When we add in the preparation time and other drugs that Landis claims, like rampant EPO, and others, that is a pretty extensive supply chain. Think Festina.

It is these allegations that have lead to searches for medical waste (oft claimed but never proven) and searches of team vehicles and other sites. Additionally, the whereabouts and random drug testing should, at some point, begin to show movement in the blood or stumble across unusual circumstances (Showergate was driven by more than dislike) that indicate doping and lead to this ever elusive supply chain - a chain that landis claims were being flown in on private jets in a fairly obvious manner than no one seems to be able to find?

Do we really think that the various police organizations and the full instrumentation of WADA would be unable to meeti Armstrong at an airport and search his bags? Is that a large investigative leap?

What Landis said seems to verify the position of the rabid bits of the crowd out there, but, as has been the case for 12 years now, what is missing after the emotional and sensational accussations .... is actual proof to back it up.

People may not like Armstrong, and there is certainly grounds to have had a good look at Armstrong past and methods, but having given it a good look and winding up with .... allegations, I think it is time to move beyond the, "**** is going to hit the fan .... now?" talk and onto the, "Lance is about to retire, put up or STFU," talk.

I mean if everyone on your block was calling your daughter a ****, and every time you checked the story she was clearly not sleeping around, at what point does the continued accussation allow you to tell your neighbors, "STFU!"

Where is that point regarding Armstrong?

Sorry. I didn't realize Lance was your daughter. I'll STFU.

 

[BroDeal]

The really funny thing about this is Wigans being stupid enough to call out FLandis then his wife throwing a tantrum when Landis responds. Highly entertaining. Maybe she should make sure Wigans keeps off the booze and stops inviting such attacks instead of posting angry messages to the interweb.

 

[MD FACG FACP]

Wiggins is a disciplined World Class pursuit rider. People in that discipline can move on to climbing TT etc. Wiggins is not a "nothing rider"

Always a class act even if you don't like his mod attire.

I just meant he was never a GT contender. He's very talented
on the track. I've never been to concerned about a man's appearance ...lol

 

[goggalor]

Floyd obviously isn't concerned with being popular.

Go, Floyd, go!

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Yeah, he did not accuse the UCI and every American rider still in the peloton, not too mention, blame the cycling omerta for not backing him up (basically every other rider in the peloton), the advertisers who 'enable doping', and is now going after JV, his team, while calling for legalized doping because the anti-doping controls are so ineffective ... that they caught him.

Are these made up?

Maybe you should apply your standards to BOTH sides of the arguement rather than running around accusing people of being liars for noticing ALL the things that people are saying regarding doping in cycling.

The emotionally cartharic method may feel good, even be self validating, but it does NOTHING to solve the actuality of doping in cycling.

Yes - you made that up to change what you said earlier, I showed you his quote - where he said he took full responsibility.
Can you show where he said anything on Phinney - a current rider - or advertisers.

How many tests did Landis have before he was caught? Is that an acceptable ratio?

 

[ergmonkey]

@Cathwiggins1981

The Wiggins clan is highly selective in its use of profanity? Man, the clean half of the chatter really is getting harder and harder to believe.

 

[Maxiton]

I suspect that Flandis is off the reservation because something has happened to end his False Claims lawsuit. His behavior has changed, and it no longer appears that his message is being crafted by someone else.

Sounds likely. (Although, let's face it, he's been off the reservation for a long time now.) But what could have happened to the false claims suit at this stage?

"Landis writes, 'Had USADA done what it was obligated to do at the time of his confession, as I'm not aware of a rule allowing for immunity in the case of a confession, I'd have known of it for one thing. But more importantly JV (Jonathan Vaughters) would not have been allowed to go on to develop USPS version 2.0 behind the facade of the "clean team" mantra.'"

Taken from the Versus posting.

That's a really inflammatory statement. Libelous, in fact. And who does it sound like it was written by? If you said buckwheat, late of this very forum, you wouldn't be far off. Not saying the two are the same - but they certainly sound alike.

Well now the merde really is hitting the fan (or fans).

 

[hrotha]

Pure speculation, but if you look at the supposed conversations/messages, the doping by Vaughters was back in his USPS days. I believe this is why he ultimately quit and went off to try something new.

Remember the bee-sting incident? His quotes at the time regarding steroid injections (to bring down swelling) pointed out the absurdity of the rules. It made me think that he knew what others (maybe himself) could get away with, but something that was medically warranted was a 'no-no'.

I don't think Landis's allegations regarding Vaughters have anything to do with his current set-up, except that he believes he did some things while back at USPS but never was subject to a penalty.

Well yes, of course Vaughters left US Postal because he didn't want to be part of that anymore and chances are he was clean at CA. But when Landis says this...
"But more importantly JV (Jonathan Vaughters) would not have been allowed to go on to develop USPS version 2.0 behind the facade of the "clean team" mantra."
...he's clearly saying Garmin is as dirty as anyone else and the whole clean team thing is a UCI-approved farce ("Landis goes on to accuse the UCI of covering for Vaughters as another doping scandal, and one linked to the Garmin team - considered to be the cleanest in the sport - would ruin the reputation of professional cycling").

You'll note this is also the position of several people in this forum and that it's been discussed in depth in several recent Vaughters threads. Ultimately it all comes down to just how much credibility Vaughters has and what exactly he's done to earn it, other than saying his team is clean. The issue is, was Bruyneel right when he accused these so-called clean teams of being nothing but PR propaganda?

I like Vaughters and I want (nay, need) to believe he's being honest about Slipstream, but at the end of the day there's not much to believe that is the case.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Looks as though Wigans can't fight his own battles, so he sends in his wife to yap on Twitter in his defense.

Landis is pretty free to speak out now. He has no reason to keep quiet. Nobody is going to sue him.

I did, at first, believe in Slipstream. Once I saw Wigans up with the top climbers, I knew something was up. It was the Hincapie transformation all over again. USPS 2.0 indeed.
I don't buy what Vaughters is selling at all.

 

[flicker]

move to TT maybe....but to climbing, give me a f***ing break.
Wiggins' wife has some cheek after the a** licking her husband gave the biggest doper in the sports history during the week.
Kudos to Floyd for all this. I believe him to be correct in what he is saying about JV and Wiggins. Someone needs to say it. The sport is absolutely filthy - the politics, the corruption etc. It's all smoke and mirrors, but behind the curtain, it really is a sewer. Right up from lowly domestiques to the DSs, the anti doping agencies and the officials.
Seriously, if you were clean, would you come out as Wiggins has, and say the things he did during the week? At the very least you would say no comment - he knew from his Garmin days exactly the story but he kept on with the Omerta. The only reason someone keeps the Omerta is if you are every bit in the sh** as the rest.
And JV we know you read these threads - people are not stupid or gullible. We all thought the same about the Wiggins' numbers, yet you came on here defending him, when the reality is that you were concerned yourself. If this is true about admitting usage to Travis, then you are every much as part of the problem as most of the rest, because you should have been banned. The fact that nothing was done shows again the corruption that exists, corruption that you are part of. You could blow the sport apart, which is what it needs and you know this full well (something Lemond has said time and time again) - you hide behind this pathetic excuse of trying to fix the problem from the inside out. So JV when you are in the team car and look at Bruyneel driving his car, are you happy that you are doing all you can?
The only way cycling is going to clean up is if people such as yourself have the courage to call it as it is. To tell exactly what you did, what you saw. Talk about the corruption at high levels. Root and branch surgery needs to take place. The Riis', Bruyneels of this world need to be kicked out.
This rubbish about only just finding out about Matt White and Del Moral - seriously, what planet are you on that you think this is plausible? And this is what I am alluding to about politics and corruption. It smells so much like the Gusev incident. Propoganda. Shame you weren't this strict when you tried to sign Contador.........

I am not saying Wiggins nor any other rider save my Lord Armstrong and his nemisis a certain Greg LeMond are clean. Those 2 for sure are sanitary.

What I am saying is if Wiggins or any other pursuiter, say Sercu, Merckx, DeVlaemink, Coppi, Anquentiel, LeMond, can stage win or be tour contenders In the pursuiting discipline yes you can modify without doping to GTs.

By the way LeMond road pursuit as a junior team pursuit and got gold.

Anyway what is Floyd thinking, now he is trashing Garmin who is sponsored by LeMond. LeMond is also a big supporter of Floyd.

Maybe those 2 want to attack all cycling now including their own teams? What are LeMond and Floyd thinking?

 

[Anonymous]

Sounds likely. (Although, let's face it, he's been off the reservation for a long time now.) But what could have happened to the false claims suit at this stage?

"Landis writes, 'Had USADA done what it was obligated to do at the time of his confession, as I'm not aware of a rule allowing for immunity in the case of a confession, I'd have known of it for one thing. But more importantly JV (Jonathan Vaughters) would not have been allowed to go on to develop USPS version 2.0 behind the facade of the "clean team" mantra.'"

Taken from the Versus posting.

That's a really inflammatory statement. Libelous, in fact. And who does it sound like it was written by? If you said buckwheat, late of this very forum, you wouldn't be far off. Not saying the two are the same - but they certainly sound alike.

Well now the merde really is hitting the fan (or fans).

nah, buckwheat and landis are very different. Buckwheat was a loose loose cannon, landis just appears to be a loose cannon, but he aint. Its all controlled.

 

[Benotti69]

Well yes, of course Vaughters left US Postal because he didn't want to be part of that anymore and chances are he was clean at CA. But when Landis says this...
"But more importantly JV (Jonathan Vaughters) would not have been allowed to go on to develop USPS version 2.0 behind the facade of the "clean team" mantra."
...he's clearly saying Garmin is as dirty as anyone else and the whole clean team thing is a UCI-approved farce ("Landis goes on to accuse the UCI of covering for Vaughters as another doping scandal, and one linked to the Garmin team - considered to be the cleanest in the sport - would ruin the reputation of professional cycling").

You'll note this is also the position of several people in this forum and that it's been discussed in depth in several recent Vaughters threads. Ultimately it all comes down to just how much credibility Vaughters has and what exactly he's done to earn it, other than saying his team is clean. The issue is, was Bruyneel right when he accused these so-called clean teams of being nothing but PR propaganda?

I like Vaughters and I want (nay, need) to believe he's being honest about Slipstream, but at the end of the day there's not much to believe that is the case.

If Vaughters/Slipstream are another USPS it would be a near death knell for cycling as far those who follow the sport and are anti doping are concerned.

but it would not be surprising. his riders are not outspoken about anti doping as i feel they should be, but maybe because that would effect business.

 

[Digger]

I am not saying Wiggins nor any other rider save my Lord Armstrong and his nemisis a certain Greg LeMond are clean. Those 2 for sure are sanitary.

What I am saying is if Wiggins or any other pursuiter, say Sercu, Merckx, DeVlaemink, Coppi, Anquentiel, LeMond, can stage win or be tour contenders In the pursuiting discipline yes you can modify without doping to GTs.

By the way LeMond road pursuit as a junior team pursuit and got gold.

Anyway what is Floyd thinking, now he is trashing Garmin who is sponsored by LeMond. LeMond is also a big supporter of Floyd.

Maybe those 2 want to attack all cycling now including their own teams? What are LeMond and Floyd thinking?

You are not well in the head man.

 

[Benotti69]

I suspect that Flandis is off the reservation because something has happened to end his False Claims lawsuit. His behavior has changed, and it no longer appears that his message is being crafted by someone else.

if the false claims lawsuit ended would we have not heard and i imagine wonderboy would have heard it and have tweeted it gleefully as a victory. something else i would say.

 

[ergmonkey]

I am not saying Wiggins nor any other rider save my Lord Armstrong and his nemisis a certain Greg LeMond are clean. Those 2 for sure are sanitary.

What I am saying is if Wiggins or any other pursuiter, say Sercu, Merckx, DeVlaemink, Coppi, Anquentiel, LeMond, can stage win or be tour contenders In the pursuiting discipline yes you can modify without doping to GTs.

By the way LeMond road pursuit as a junior team pursuit and got gold.

Anyway what is Floyd thinking, now he is trashing Garmin who is sponsored by LeMond. LeMond is also a big supporter of Floyd.

Maybe those 2 want to attack all cycling now including their own teams? What are LeMond and Floyd thinking?

To be fair, guys like Merckx and LeMond were top junior pursuiters because they were top junior riders at everything.

That is quite different, I would argue, from adult riders who began by focusing more or less exclusively on the pursuit (think Boardman, McGee, Wiggins). I'm not suggesting that the transformation from pursuit rider to GT rider is impossible, but I do think that comparing Wiggins to obvious natural GC talents like Merckx and Lemond is not particularly helpful.

 

[euanli]

Looks as though Wigans can't fight his own battles, so he sends in his wife to yap on Twitter in his defense.

Ah women aren't allowed to hold an opinion.