Landis wore a wire and filmed Ball (at feds request)

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thehog said:
Which raises another question....... Did the investment money ever buy dope or pay bribes? Armstrong did say the $100,000 donation (payoff) came from the investment fund and thats why he couldn't remember the exact amount.

With this is mind - if investor money was used for purposes other than "investing" and without the knowledge of the investor and if it was used to fund an elaborate drug procurement, distribution and export business then this is very very farking serious. Thats Madoff territory right there.

Remember as Lance racked up the wins he got richer and richer and the investors who were investing for the "win" lost more and more money.
Hog,

As much as you lead with this stuff, sometimes it's like pushing on a string and expecting something to happen. Regulators in the U.S. are notable for what they don't do. Madoff being the perfect example. How many times was the SEC tipped off on Madoff?

I'm still grateful for your time and information on the issues.
 
Dec 7, 2010
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Granville57 said:
That is one of the more interesting aspects of all this. Especially when we remember LA saying, "This is somebody who took, some would say, close to a million dollars from innocent people."

And yet it's quite clear now that:
1) Most of the funds came from people who were far from innocent.
2) LA most likely knew exactly how much his inner circle had donated.
thehog said:
All true but I think the investors for the most part were innocent. In fact it was Armstrong himself who was taking money from innocent investors (people) with the Tailwind scam.
I was referencing the large (as in 70% of the total) donations to Floyd's defense. It would seem that by 2006/07 there's no way any of the high-rollers in LA's little cabal wouldn't have known full-well that the objective was, "Let's do what we can to get Floyd out of this mess so that it doesn't ever come back to us!"

I think they were just covering their tracks.
 
Oct 25, 2010
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lean said:
ironically, i had never heard of rosarita-ensenada and had to google it (i live outside of philadelphia). as you suggest tho, i think the investors were a mixed bag.
 
Granville57 said:
I was referencing the large (as in 70% of the total) donations to Floyd's defense. It would seem that by 2006/07 there's no way any of the high-rollers in LA's little cabal wouldn't have known full-well that the objective was, "Let's do what we can to get Floyd out of this mess so that it doesn't ever come back to us!"

I think they were just covering their tracks.
I know but I disagree.

It was pitched as "Don't let the French take our man down. The lab has cheated the American win. Invest today, get him off and there will be returns for all of you on the book deal, the comeback, a new cycling team which we can't talk about now with Lance as manager of this exciting new team but we can't talk about that right now". Roll up, roll up get tickets right here.

As others have mentioned it was merly the "SFTFUF" - to protect the Armstrong franchise that is.
 

Dr. Maserati

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thehog said:
Which raises another question....... Did the investment money ever buy dope or pay bribes? Armstrong did say the $100,000 donation (payoff) came from the investment fund and thats why he couldn't remember the exact amount.

With this is mind - if investor money was used for purposes other than "investing" and without the knowledge of the investor and if it was used to fund an elaborate drug procurement, distribution and export business then this is very very farking serious. Thats Madoff territory right there.

Remember as Lance racked up the wins he got richer and richer and the investors who were investing for the "win" lost more and more money.
Sorry but the highlighted is to best of my knowledge wrong.

The $100,000 payment is (supposedly) to have come from CSE not Tailwind.
 
Dr. Maserati said:
Sorry but the highlighted is to best of my knowledge wrong.

The $100,000 payment is (supposedly) to have come from CSE not Tailwind.
Yes & No.

Correct CSE but CSE was taking funding from the investors as was Tailwind.

Livestrong and other business ventures are tied up in the same.
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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Some people have been trying to work out the timeline -

From the New York Daily News from August.
"It's my understanding that Novitzky was looking at Michael Ball long before Floyd met with Novitzky or even with the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency," said a person close to the investigation, echoing information provided by two other sources.
This is from the 24th June NYDN piece:
A source close to the cycling inquiry said the government's interest in Ball predates the scandal that exploded last month when Landis made his confessions and claimed that organized, rampant doping occurred on the U.S. Postal Service cycling team from 2002 to 2005, when Landis rode on the team in support of a victorious Armstrong.
In this 1st August pieceagain- it states the Search Warrant was served earlier this year - and as the filming predates that it points to very early in the year.
Earlier this year, investigators served a search warrant on Ball's luxury apartment in a high rise in the Marina del Rey neighborhood on the west side of Los Angeles. In April, his Rock and Republic clothing company went bankrupt. Sources say Ball was under Novitzky's scrutiny before Armstrong's name emerged.
 
Oct 25, 2010
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Clearly, Landis' revelations were already old-news to Novitzky when he dropped the email bombs in May. Which means that the emails were part of the strategic plan. And the fact that Landis was trying to get a contract with Radio Shack after Ball's search warrant, means that Lance was ABSOLUTELY a focus.

The question now is, what was the plan? Why did Novitzky want Floyd to do that? To see how certain people reacted? To see who came to Jesus?



Or did Floyd kick back a bottle of Whiskey one night up in Idyllwild and "go rogue". Was there really a plan?

 
When Novitzky's interest in all this broke last spring, it was stated in the press that he began looking at Ball the previous December (2009). The foreign marriage arrangements were indeed a major part of the investigation, indeed IIRC, they were in large part what originally triggered it.

However, the raids on Ball's premises, at least those made public, did not occur until after Floyd's accusations were made public in May, and after Novitzky publicly said he was expanding his investigation to Postal. So in this sense anyone with half a brain would have been tipped off that Landis was working for Novitzky, and would be careful what he said or did around him. I doubt very much that Floyd has any recordings of conversations with LA or others associated with Postal. His main evidence remains his coded diary, which will be useful if others can corroborate any recorded observations.
 
Oct 25, 2010
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Merckx index said:
When Novitzky's interest in all this broke last spring, it was stated in the press that he began looking at Ball the previous December (2009). The foreign marriage arrangements were indeed a major part of the investigation, indeed IIRC, they were in large part what originally triggered it.

However, the raids on Ball's premises, at least those made public, did not occur until after Floyd's accusations were made public in May, and after Novitzky publicly said he was expanding his investigation to Postal. So in this sense anyone with half a brain would have been tipped off that Landis was working for Novitzky, and would be careful what he said or did around him. I doubt very much that Floyd has any recordings of conversations with LA or others associated with Postal. His main evidence remains his coded diary, which will be useful if others can corroborate any recorded observations.
Interesting. I just picked up this bit:
http://nymag.com/daily/fashion/2010/08/michael_ball_in_hotter_water_t.html
Ball’s Rock Racing team had employed Landis as a consultant after his ban from the sport ended in 2008, though he was never officially on the roster.
I figure, who better to know what's in the fridge than the guy you've just hired to teach you how to use it!

I'd imagine that the feds were wiretapping Ball for the immigration stuff, and then they happened to hear a phone call from Floyd. Soon enough, Floyd's a cooperating witness (if not a potential defendant in a case of his own).
 
Jul 25, 2009
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BotanyBay said:
The question now is, what was the plan? Why did Novitzky want Floyd to do that? To see how certain people reacted? To see who came to Jesus? ........
The emails radioshack posted, which they claimed showed Floyd blackmailing Messink etc, actually showed Floyd trying to get others to come forward too. Basically his line was "I'm gonna go postal whatever you do, now is your big chance to come forward and be part of the solution - get in quick for the PR coup and save your own @rse".

Strangely enough that particular press release seems to have disappeared from the site :D Anyone keep a copy?
 
Oct 25, 2010
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I Watch Cycling In July said:
The emails radioshack posted, which they claimed showed Floyd blackmailing Messink etc, actually showed Floyd trying to get others to come forward too. Basically his line was "I'm gonna go postal whatever you do, now is your big chance to come forward and be part of the solution - get in quick for the PR coup and save your own @rse".

Strangely enough that particular press release seems to have disappeared from the site :D Anyone keep a copy?
They're very adept at managing perceptions (even in this shiite storm). Even though the words are there, they divert attention from the ones that really matter and focus on those that suit their needs. So long as you have the right spin and a TON of momentum, you can manage it.

Yes, I'd like to see that email too. Anyone have a link to it? Those Floyd emails might make a lot more sense now.
 
Jul 25, 2009
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BotanyBay said:
They're very adept at managing perceptions (even in this shiite storm). Even though the words are there, they divert attention from the ones that really matter and focus on those that suit their needs. So long as you have the right spin and a TON of momentum, you can manage it.

Yes, I'd like to see that email too. Anyone have a link to it? Those Floyd emails might make a lot more sense now.
Well, I certainly found the LA interview made more sense in the context of what we now. Especially his replies to questions about action Novitsky and ASO might take with "why would they do that?" - deflection 101 from Mr well-prepared-for-interview. The BS about those emails was right up there with LA being exonerated by the Vrijman report and vindicated by the SCA trial outcome......Say one thing then relax in the knowledge that most people won't read the info that contradicts you.

At the time, I had a slight question mark about the possibility that the emails were just carefully worded, and Floyd's conversations with these people had a different flavor (i.e. blackmail). However, if it becomes clear that Floyd was communicating with the Feds before he went postal, then i really like Floyd's credibility.

Edit: This link starts of with the full statement from Shack's Counsel.
Edit again: Just noticed Floyd claimed to have recorded a prior conversation in his email to Messick dated Sat Apr 24 05:50:15 2010..he has been busy.
 
Jun 22, 2009
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BotanyBay said:
Or did Floyd kick back a bottle of Whiskey one night up in Idyllwild and "go rogue". Was there really a plan?
i considered this but i'm starting to think floyd has learned his lesson. he's learned to filter good advice from bad.

it's time for EVERYONE to stop underestimating floyd landis.
 
lean said:
i considered this but i'm starting to think floyd has learned his lesson. he's learned to filter good advice from bad.

it's time for EVERYONE to stop underestimating floyd landis.
Are you suggesting that we can rule out Will from any involvement in all of this?

Dave.
 
Am I not too late to bet money on Floyd's credibility? :)
This guy just ROCKS. I liked him as a rider, was disappointed when he got caught, believed him about the whiskey/testosterone thing, starting to doubt, and now he's just so awesome, like a cat playing with a mouse. The mouse being the whole omerta crew.
I knew the emails were GOOD when I saw them. figured he had young, ambitious lawyers. But man, feds...
Floyd will get his coin alright, playing the star role in his own movie about this. Reality is so much more hardcore than any movie...
 
Oct 25, 2010
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Epicycle said:
I wonder if the Ball investigation arose from the investigation into Joe Papp selling EPO.
We may never know that. But it would seem that it started as an immigration investigation (Ball's Mexican girlfriend) and perhaps brought more than one investigation together, making an entirely new investigation. But who cares, right? Do that illegal stuff long enough and with enough people, eventually it will all come crashing down around you.
 
Aug 10, 2010
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Slight correction

BotanyBay said:
We may never know that. But it would seem that it started as an immigration investigation (Ball's Mexican girlfriend) and perhaps brought more than one investigation together, making an entirely new investigation. But who cares, right? Do that illegal stuff long enough and with enough people, eventually it will all come crashing down around you.[/QUOTE
 
Mar 19, 2009
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BotanyBay said:
We may never know that. But it would seem that it started as an immigration investigation (Ball's Mexican girlfriend) and perhaps brought more than one investigation together, making an entirely new investigation. But who cares, right? Do that illegal stuff long enough and with enough people, eventually it will all come crashing down around you.
Yeah Ball was a creep from the start. I remember reading a quote by him talking about how he got into the sport...he said he saw a bad crash and thought it was intense.
 

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