Le Tour '19 Stage 20: Albertville > Val Thorens 59km

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Red Rick said:
happytramp said:
Will Bernal, Thomas and Froome be able to co-exist at the same team?
Won't be a problem. Brailsford >> Unzue in that regard.
In all likelihood it will be just two, Bernal and Carapace. Both Thomas and Froome are getting old and obviously it's highly debatable whether Froome will ever be the same again. If he does manage to recover then I could see them backing him for an attempt at a 5th TDF in the same manner as they've done at the last two TDFs, dual leadership with one of the other GT contenders and the others focus on giro and vuelta.
 
Re: Re:

roundabout said:
brownbobby said:
Lequack said:
Red Rick said:
happytramp said:
Will Bernal, Thomas and Froome be able to co-exist at the same team?
Won't be a problem. Brailsford >> Unzue in that regard.
He forgot Carapaz. All Grand Tour winners now.
4 GT winners, 3 GT’s and a proven history of making dual leadership work to perfection...sounds like a formula for success and domination to me....good luck everybody else :D
Don't think 2012 worked to perfection past the finish in Paris.

And I think it was all for Wiggins.

2018 is not comparable for obvious reasons, so actual proven history consists of 1 GT.
Correct...2012 they had one leader with a big ego and a super dom who was a better climber than his leader. But there was never any suggestion of dual leadership...quite the opposite.

Why was 2018 not comparable?
 
Jul 14, 2016
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so bernal just gives away the KOM, what an idiot, at least Froome was sprinting in the last stage to get the green jersey. This is a *** joke, the KOM is a prestigious price not to just gift to someone!
 
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roundabout said:
2018 had Froome doing the Giro. The history of 2 leaders going in with same preparation is 1 Tour long.
They still went in with 2 leaders/protected riders...just like they did this year, then let events on the road decide how it played out.

That’s the point of dual leadership...you know that only one person can actually win, but if you’ve got 2 riders genuinely capable of winning then you keep them both in the game as long as you can...it’s worked perfectly in both 2018 and 2019
 
Sep 9, 2015
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broppo said:
so bernal just gives away the KOM, what an idiot, at least Froome was sprinting in the last stage to get the green jersey. This is a **** joke, the KOM is a prestigious price not to just gift to someone!
I see it as a clever move. Who gives a f* for polka when you have the yellow and got another couple of non-so-enemy guys in the bunch for the next years...
 
Re: Re:

Red Rick said:
happytramp said:
Will Bernal, Thomas and Froome be able to co-exist at the same team?
Won't be a problem. Brailsford >> Unzue in that regard.
Even with all those wins, Sky/Ineos has never started Grand Tour with more than one GT winner in the roster. Thomas and now Bernal won beating GT winning team-mate in the process but at the beginning of the race they weren't winners.
 
Scarponi said:
BullsFan22 said:
Scarponi said:
BullsFan22 said:
German TV celebrating Buchmann. The guy just sat in the group all day today, tried a little dig for a few seconds, and that was the highlight of his tour. They are celebrating him as if he just won the tour. I get the need to hype the leading German rider who finished 4th, but c'mon, he didn't do anything significant during this tour.
The winner attacked once and the other time was a quarter effort. That’s it, you have Landa attacking from 7 minutes behind and G half hearted attacks. That’s it for the whole tour and you want target a kid ?
He's 27. He's not a kid.
In a sport where riders like G and Froome are winning first time near 30, 27 is really young
I dont know if that was supposed to be humorous, or if you are serious, but i literally laughed out loud. Bernal is young.
 
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broppo said:
so bernal just gives away the KOM, what an idiot, at least Froome was sprinting in the last stage to get the green jersey. This is a **** joke, the KOM is a prestigious price not to just gift to someone!
Would've been good to see him take the stage and KOM jersey, yeah. Bardet really isn't a very good KOM winner this year.
 
Re: Re:

brownbobby said:
roundabout said:
2018 had Froome doing the Giro. The history of 2 leaders going in with same preparation is 1 Tour long.
They still went in with 2 leaders/protected riders...just like they did this year, then let events on the road decide how it played out.

That’s the point of dual leadership...you know that only one person can actually win, but if you’ve got 2 riders genuinely capable of winning then you keep them both in the game as long as you can...it’s worked perfectly in both 2018 and 2019
It worked perfectly because they were never in the position when one of the leaders had to directly work for the other

Also, the better prepared rider got the race lead first on both occasions.

Not take anything away from them though as 2018 and 2019 were handled about as well as possible given race situations.
 
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broppo said:
so bernal just gives away the KOM, what an idiot, at least Froome was sprinting in the last stage to get the green jersey. This is a **** joke, the KOM is a prestigious price not to just gift to someone!
unless you want to be friendly to the frenchies... you know, organizers

and remember, from 2020 MachINEOS will no longer target Tour win, they will target FULL PODIUM (no problem with Froome, Bernal, Carapaz, Thomas, perhaps 5th place for their best domestique)
 
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luckyboy said:
broppo said:
so bernal just gives away the KOM, what an idiot, at least Froome was sprinting in the last stage to get the green jersey. This is a **** joke, the KOM is a prestigious price not to just gift to someone!
Would've been good to see him take the stage and KOM jersey, yeah. Bardet really isn't a very good KOM winner this year.
In fairness, if they don't cancel the Roseland, then Bardet goes in the break and probably takes max points on it unless Yates is there, as nobody else in the break would have designs on the classification most likely and would be preserving their energy for Val Thorens.

The problem with the KOM at the moment in the Tour is that they've colossally over-valued MTFs, to the point where a Unipuerto stage with a HC MTF has more points available than the 2009 queen stage with four cat.1s and a cat.2. This has led to a move away from the 'king of the breakaways' stigma of the winners being combativity candidates rather than real climbers (though I do feel sorry for Charteau being singled out as the reason it had to change, that was largely the result of a deal made to protect Jérôme Pineau in the St-Jean-de-Maurienne stage, and then Radioshack defending the lead in the Teams Classification and nuking any break with a Caisse d'Epargne rider in it on the Tourmalet stage, preventing Christophe Moreau collecting points on those two days. If Moreau picked up the KOM as a career parting gift, much like Garzelli in the 2011 Giro, then nobody decides the classification needs a revamp, as Moreau would probably have been seen as a 'worthy' KOM), but while much of the time it has been won by a secondary contender or somebody who has lost out on the GC but come into form late in the race (Majka's wins both fall into this category), it has also on occasion been won by a GC candidate basically by accident (Froome in 2015, for example). While a big GC candidate can definitely win the KOM in the 'right' way, by competing for the win collecting points by being combative in the mountains - Quintana's win in 2013 and Rasmussen's was-going-to-be-a-win in 2007 for example - it's not like Froome ever really went on the kind of escapade to win the jersey that made him visible as the "king of the mountains" even though he was obviously the best climber in that race (his reward for which, of course, was the yellow jersey).

By the way the jersey has functioned since the revamp in 2011, the logical winner of the KOM for me would have been Simon Yates, and his attack with a few kilometres to go was likely with this in mind. He's won two stages and been visible on the attack throughout the mountain stages. Nairo Quintana was also within striking distance of the jersey, and had the two been fresher, we could have seen them battle on the front once Bardet was dropped, being one point apart and both having won major mountain stages in the race. Bernal has at least been decently aggressive, but it wasn't like Landa in the Pyrenees - that was the type of move he was on when the Tignes stage was neutered, and had that stage been able to be completed and THEN he'd won or top 3ed today's stage, he'd feel more like a GPM winner.

Bardet simply doesn't feel like a GPM winner here. I mean, as a calibre of rider, he fits in well with the kind of riders who've won the jersey in recent years. But he had a catastrophically bad GC campaign, and he only had the one real mountain exploit, which he didn't exactly set the world alight in either. This isn't just a Tour problem though - a few years ago Giovanni Visconti won the Giro GPM almost by accident; Carlos Betancur and Beñat Intxausti had been duelling over the jersey for most of the race, and Visconti got into the break on one key day which had the Cima Coppi, originally to try to protect Intxausti's lead in the classification, but because of the crazy overvaluing of the Cima Coppi and the idiosyncrasies of the Giro's GPM (such as the number and difficulty of uncategorized ascents) he wound up winning the jersey on the strength of that one day.
 
Re: Re:

Escarabajo said:
wwabbit said:
Escarabajo said:
What a bunch of ****.

Why Ineos didn't want to attack?
Greetings! You must be new here!
It may surprise you to know, but generally, teams do not attack if they do not have anything to achieve by attacking!

Hope you learnt something new today!
Have a great day!
I am not new and have been watching cycling for 40+ years.

Bernal could have won the stage to go with the yellow jersey. I hope you learnt a lesson today.

Nice avatar!!! :)
He Should have. Instead we have a winner that Never even Podiumed a stage much less won one. Blech....
 
Re: Re:

Singularitarian said:
broppo said:
so bernal just gives away the KOM, what an idiot, at least Froome was sprinting in the last stage to get the green jersey. This is a **** joke, the KOM is a prestigious price not to just gift to someone!
unless you want to be friendly to the frenchies... you know, organizers

and remember, from 2020 MachINEOS will no longer target Tour win, they will target FULL PODIUM (no problem with Froome, Bernal, Carapaz, Thomas, perhaps 5th place for their best domestique)
To clarify, that would be full podium in all three grand tours. The crumbs (e.g., polka-dot jersey) can be left over to be spread out among the lesser beings (everyone else). :D
 
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broppo said:
so bernal just gives away the KOM, what an idiot, at least Froome was sprinting in the last stage to get the green jersey. This is a **** joke, the KOM is a prestigious price not to just gift to someone!
you can't make this *** up, Froome got nothing but grief when he sprinted for that points jersey in that Vuelta...Now Froome is getting credit for respecting the jersey....make your mind up people
 
Apr 29, 2012
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SafeBet said:
I did some research. I might be wrong but I think Bernal will be the first rider since Roger Walkowiak in 1956 to win a Tour de France without finishing in the top3 in any individual stage.
I think you are probably right in that assessment:

in 2017 Froome was 3rd in stage 9 (He may have podiumed in more I stopped checking after 1)
in 2006 Oscar Periero was 3rd in stage 16 (He may have podiumed in more I stopped checking after 1)
in 1990 Lemond was 2nd in stage 11 (He may have podiumed in more I stopped checking after 1)
in 1966 Lucien Aimar was 2nd in Stage 14a (He may have podiumed in more I stopped checking after 1)
in 1960 Gastone Nencini was 2nd and 3rd in Stage 1a and 1b (He may have podiumed in more I stopped checking after 1)

and that takes us back to Walko!

This a a great resource for old Tour results - https://www.bikeraceinfo.com/tdf/tdf1960.html
 
Happy for Bardet to salvage something from the race, but to win the jersey from scoring points on just 2 stages, and only being first to top of one climb (Port de Lers) is a bit weak.
 
Re:

SafeBet said:
I did some research. I might be wrong but I think Bernal will be the first rider since Roger Walkowiak in 1956 to win a Tour de France without finishing in the top3 in any individual stage.
Thanks, I knew it had to be awhile! Usually the 'strongest' hits a podium at least multiple times. Very few win without winning a stage.
 
Re: Re:

Valv.Piti said:
Libertine Seguros said:
It's a shame that the race ended anticlimactically, which may dampen some people's enthusiasm for what has been one of the most open Tours in years (and also, the fact that the widely unpopular Ineos team did a 1-2 after everything that came before will leave a sour taste in many people's mouths), but it couldn't be helped - this was a lot like the Monte Zoncolan stage of the 2014 Giro or Mont Vonteux in the 2009 Tour; the best climber among the heads of state group already had the jersey (I hesitate to say in the race, because for most of the race I believe Pinot was the best climber, but obviously he is no longer in the race, and Bernal's performances in the last three days had shown him to be the best of those that remained - just a real shame Pinot wasn't there because even had he not gone with Bernal yesterday, I'd have doubted he'd have not made it into the Thomas/Kruijswijk group, so he would have been duking out the podium and might have made things more aggressive, but shoulda woulda coulda, and while he may have led to a more exciting stage today, I sincerely doubt he'd have made a dent in Bernal's lead, so it would have come down to Thomas, who looked far more comfortable in the Alps than he did in the Pyrenees), and so none of the others had the belief they could take the time required, amongst any who may or may not have had the legs - and clearly most of them didn't as we saw moves made from a few different tertiary contenders who weren't able to really go anywhere. Alaphilippe dropping so early also rather sounded the death knell for an exciting stage, because whether or not he could hold on was one of the main pre-stage narratives; his dropping so early, but there being such a big gap from Buchmann in 5th to Landa in 6th on the GC so that Landa didn't feel incentivized to attack earlier (or if he did, didn't have the legs to despite Movistar trying to set things up with Oliveira and Soler) hurt things.

Of course, there will always be a huge quantity of "what ifs" around a Grand Tour; it's three weeks of racing, and while that does give maximum opportunity to even out the bad luck (as opposed to a one-day race, where a single puncture or being caught behind a split ruins the entire race), there will probably be more "what ifs" attached to this Tour than most of the last few years' TDFs, because of its open nature.

What if stage 19 had been run to its conclusion? What if Roseland was passable and we got a fuller final stage - would Alaphilippe have dropped earlier, would the pace have been lower? Would Movistar have tried something creative again? What if Pinot had been fit to ride on through stages 19 and 20? What if Landa hadn't been knocked over in stage 10 and lost 2 minutes? What if the crosswind split hadn't happened at all? What if Ineos had instructed to stick to Thomas as plan A today (probably a moot point as Poels was still there, of course)? What if Wout van Aert hadn't crashed in the ITT? What if Simon Yates had withdrawn from the Giro early and targeted this race, seeing as he mistimed his form so badly in Italy and proved one of the best climbers in the Tour? What if Quintana had told the team he wasn't up to it earlier on the Tourmalet stage? What if they'd annulled the stage 19 time gaps and cancelled it entirely (possibly a moot point as Alaphilippe obviously cracked early today)?

While you can say that it's silly to run through all these hypotheticals, the thing is: the more unanswered questions and hypotheticals there are within a race like that, the better. It creates longer-running narratives. We never saw Pinot and Bernal go at it in peak form - one was strongest in the Pyrenees, one was strongest in the Alps. It's something to be enthused by for future editions. Alaphilippe turned into a GT rider - is he a Voeckler-like flash in the pan story, or might he be able to become a GC rider 'for real' - especially at a race like the Vuelta which has lots of climbs that are more suited to his style? A good competition that leaves unanswered questions is good for the sport because it will draw the audience back for more. All too often in recent years, we've come out of the Tour without such questions, because victory has been emphatic. Here, the right man may have won, assuming Bernal makes it to the line on the Champs Elysées (the strongest man to complete the whole race), but the situation around the race, both things within it and external to it, means that there is intrigue when these guys line up against each other again.
This will be another 2014-edition in terms of what ifs and look at how much that race has been spoken about up to this day. 2014 had two major ones, but this one seems to take it to new levels quantity-wise. So many unanswered question - to your list we can also add Froome, Dumoulin and even Roglic.

Just wish we had a nice ending today. Sure, Nibali is a great name, but I always hope that its decided between the best.

Movistar really animated this race, but was never in a winning position. Landa proved to be the strongest on some days, Quintana others and even Valverde today. Soler and Amador was incredible thought the race, but unfortunately they were too far behind after the ITT and then the Quintana debacle at the Tourmalet.They proved to be great for the race, but nothing more than that in terms of fighting for the overall and even podium.

Then you have FDJ, the Gaudu-Pinot pairing looks great which we only saw on a few occasions. Pinot has the level to win TdF, but can Gaudu evolve into a world class climber, really putting the hammer down on hard mountains and shredding the peloton down to 5-10 men?
Isn't this exactly what Gaudu did in the Pyrenees? And also showed indications of being able to do in the autumn races last season?

Just a shame that Pinot is a magnet for accidents in grand tours.
 
Re: Re:

Inquitus said:
SafeBet said:
I did some research. I might be wrong but I think Bernal will be the first rider since Roger Walkowiak in 1956 to win a Tour de France without finishing in the top3 in any individual stage.
I think you are probably right in that assessment:

in 2017 Froome was 3rd in stage 9 (He may have podiumed in more I stopped checking after 1)
in 2006 Oscar Periero was 3rd in stage 16 (He may have podiumed in more I stopped checking after 1)
in 1990 Lemond was 2nd in stage 11 (He may have podiumed in more I stopped checking after 1)
in 1966 Lucien Aimar was 2nd in Stage 14a (He may have podiumed in more I stopped checking after 1)
in 1960 Gastone Nencini was 2nd and 3rd in Stage 1a and 1b (He may have podiumed in more I stopped checking after 1)

and that takes us back to Walko!

This a a great resource for old Tour results - https://www.bikeraceinfo.com/tdf/tdf1960.html
I actually think Walko and Bernal are the only 2 riders in Tour history to do that.
 

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