Leadville is a Scam

[fatandfast]

I generally try to avoid the LA/CC threads for fear of being accused a fanboy (which I am not), but out of curiosity, I had a look at the La Ruta deal.

12 days of training camps at average of $550/day

7 months of premium coaching @ $335/month.

Now I am not going to argue the value of the coaching or anything else, but the daily cost of the training camps is substantially lower than you would pay for most business conferences, and coaching is CC's business.

It is a case of supply and demand. Everybody will try and charge the most they can on the basis of take-up. In other words, as long as the courses are full, then one could argue that the price is appropriate.

If you don't think it is value - dont go.

I couldn't be bothered to look up the cost of entering La Ruta directly and providing your own support (presumably by having someone travel with you and paying another airfare).

My $0.02

I have had people offer me cash to tell them what is the "real program" . Depth has a lot to with it.If you go into a camp with 350-400 for a couple of months and you are already lean, you can come away with a small thing or two that might help and make a difference. The only coaching that really works is get fit and attack. When people come and say "you are an idiot you went off the front 8 times and you didn't have a calorie left for the finish". If want to win you can't sit in..ever. Not in training not racing. This thing about Chris/Lance being evil for telling people to train or ride boldly is plain dumb. There are so few people that listen to because there are very few available sources of information. My first lesson in was stay in 4th place and then sprint for the win. After my first few failures I was advised how to stay in forth place.Somebody should start a twitter camp. Give a start place, a time to get to the turnaround and a ride completion time. You will know after 40 miles if you need to be at a camp. Example lots of pros know how long it takes to ride from San Diego to Alpine and back. If you time is not within 15% you don't need a camp you need miles.@50 years between 2 guys of elite level knowledge is very valuable even if it comes from guys you guys think are clowns. Yes the prices are high.

 

[Murray]

Have you seen the latest CTS scam for La Ruta? $10,000!

In what way is it a scam? It may be overpriced and undervalued. I certainly wouldn't/couldn't pay it. According to Merriam-Webster a scam is a "fraudulent or deceptive act or operation".

I don't think this fits.

 

[BroDeal]

In what way is it a scam? It may be overpriced and undervalued. I certainly wouldn't/couldn't pay it. According to Merriam-Webster a scam is a "fraudulent or deceptive act or operation".

I don't think this fits.

Anything involving Carmichael fits. This is the guy who pretended to be Armstrong's coach so the involvement of Dr. Ferrari could be hidden and then formed a coaching service based on that deception.

 

[davidg]

Anything involving Carmichael fits. This is the guy who pretended to be Armstrong's coach so the involvement of Dr. Ferrari could be hidden and then formed a coaching service based on that deception.

That may or may not be the case (but I am sure you have hard evidence), but the fact remains that he has built a substantial client base of people who are happy to pay for his advice, either directly or through his coaches, because it works for them.

So if grass-roots cyclists pay for a service and are satisfied, where is the problem with that?

.. and no, I am not one of those cyclists.

 

[Race Radio]

That may or may not be the case (but I am sure you have hard evidence), but the fact remains that he has built a substantial client base of people who are happy to pay for his advice, either directly or through his coaches, because it works for them.

So if grass-roots cyclists pay for a service and are satisfied, where is the problem with that?

.. and no, I am not one of those cyclists.

He doped junior racers, they got sick, he paid them mucho $$$ to not tell anyone.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2000/12/news/strock-speaks_79

He is a fraud.

 

[fatandfast]

He doped junior racers, they got sick, he paid them mucho $$$ to not tell anyone.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2000/12/news/strock-speaks_79

He is a fraud.

CC is never named as the guilty. The women who had worked for the US fed for 7+ years were found guilty. Even after the verdict our fed has welcomed with open arms coaches 'o plenty with convictions or implications to a syringe way of life. Don't blame the employee blame the employer. Lots of people apply the boss is supposed to be reading the resumes.The discussion about convicted dopers holding licenses as coaches,officials,and directors was over in.....2 seconds.Convicted who post here are coaches.

 

[Race Radio]

CC is never named as the guilty. The women who had worked for the US fed for 7+ years were found guilty. Even after the verdict our fed has welcomed with open arms coaches 'o plenty with convictions or implications to a syringe way of life. Don't blame the employee blame the employer. Lots of people apply the boss is supposed to be reading the resumes.The discussion about convicted dopers holding licenses as coaches,officials,and directors was over in.....2 seconds.Convicted who post here are coaches.

He was named early on. Armstrong even mentioned it in an interview that it did not look good for him. Carmichael did the prudent thing and settled for $250,000 prior to the case going to trial.

Rene is not a women, he is a dude. Last I heard he is coaching the Malaysian team

 

[fatandfast]

He was named early on. Armstrong even mentioned it in an interview that it did not look good for him. Carmichael did the prudent thing and settled for $250,000 prior to the case going to trial.

Rene is not a women, he is a dude. Last I heard he is coaching the Malaysian team

My bad on the gender screw up I was including a woman that was canned at the same time. I think she used to live in OC and then relocated Colorado Springs and was thrown out with the rest of the dirty water. Point still is Carmichael was never popped for anything. I went to a couple OTC camps but never met Rene or Chris. I hope USA Cycling will do something in schools to teach bicycle safety and to promote public races that are held or should be held before regular sanctioned races. Lots of pros and standouts got the bug from racing at a public race.

 

[Race Radio]

My bad on the gender screw up I was including a woman that was canned at the same time. I think she used to live in OC and then relocated Colorado Springs and was thrown out with the rest of the dirty water. Point still is Carmichael was never popped for anything. I went to a couple OTC camps but never met Rene or Chris. I hope USA Cycling will do something in schools to teach bicycle safety and to promote public races that are held or should be held before regular sanctioned races. Lots of pros and standouts got the bug from racing at a public race.

I would say paying $250,000 is getting popped. It was just not as public for Chris because he paid for it to go away before it went to trial. Smart move. There is no secret that Chris did some injecting.

 

[Boeing]

Chris Carmichael is a scam as well.

 

[fatandfast]

Chris Carmichael is a scam as well.

Lots of these posts involve a certain level of denial. Carmichael offers products and services that have really high prices,waiting lists and a shelf life of 2 seconds . He is making more money than he ever dreamed of and his dovetail with the integration of all things Lance into his business model make it hard for aspiring racers to say no. Carmichael and Armstrong may both be "scams" . Neither has time to talk about it while they are cashing checks and expanding their cycling empires. They both certainly have a level of unpopularity here and world wide, if the people spending millions on the products and services are the test I would guess that it's about 100000:1 ratio. They both appear fine with the minimal hatred.With the sold out Leadville field it would appear that there is no backlash from the Carmichael affiliation.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Lots of these posts involve a certain level of denial. Carmichael offers products and services that have really high prices,waiting lists and a shelf life of 2 seconds . He is making more money than he ever dreamed of and his dovetail with the integration of all things Lance into his business model make it hard for aspiring racers to say no. Carmichael and Armstrong may both be "scams" . Neither has time to talk about it while they are cashing checks and expanding their cycling empires. They both certainly have a level of unpopularity here and world wide, if the people spending millions on the products and services are the test I would guess that it's about 100000:1 ratio. They both appear fine with the minimal hatred.With the sold out Leadville field it would appear that there is no backlash from the Carmichael affiliation.

Nobody ever went broke by underestimating the intellegence of the American consumer.

 

[fatandfast]

Nobody ever went broke by underestimating the intellegence of the American consumer.

So the 1000's of people that showed up on Lances tweet rides in Ireland and Australia are...? Did you see the jerseys those people were wearing...These to clowns have world wide marketability. Americans do lots of dumb things with their wallets,these 2 are the human equivalent of Snuggies (bathrobe worn backward).Like it or not unless Chris and Lance start taking advice from Tiger Woods the place they hold in today's cycling is pretty epic. Armstrong moved to Colorado and the people on the city counsel got so wet that they tried to have a local holiday right away.Thank God that got a second look

 

[9000ft]

Well, you can argue that lots of things are scams that most of us pay good money for. $4000+ bikes, $300+ shoes, little foil packets of cake batter fora buck a piece, $800+ wheelsets, $60,000+ cars and so on. Of course if you spent the $ on these things, it's not a scam but it's totally worth it for the performance. Everyone who posts here has probably been "scammed" one way or another and "totally fooled themselves" about it.

If you think Leadville is a scam, fine, don't enter. As has been mentioned, there are plenty of other 100 mile MTB races in the Colorado/rocky Mtn region to choose from. Of course, in somebodies opinion somewhere, those races are probably a scam too.

 

[BroDeal]

Lots of these posts involve a certain level of denial. Carmichael offers products and services that have really high prices,waiting lists and a shelf life of 2 seconds . He is making more money than he ever dreamed of and his dovetail with the integration of all things Lance into his business model make it hard for aspiring racers to say no. Carmichael and Armstrong may both be "scams" . Neither has time to talk about it while they are cashing checks and expanding their cycling empires. They both certainly have a level of unpopularity here and world wide, if the people spending millions on the products and services are the test I would guess that it's about 100000:1 ratio. They both appear fine with the minimal hatred.With the sold out Leadville field it would appear that there is no backlash from the Carmichael affiliation.

Yeah, for decades good old Bernie Madoff was living large. People were desperate to use his services. Nobody should have called him out for what he was. He would not have cared anyway. He was to busy cashing checks.

 

[fatandfast]

Yeah, for decades good old Bernie Madoff was living large. People were desperate to use his services. Nobody should have called him out for what he was. He would not have cared anyway. He was to busy cashing checks.

Point(s) taken.Madoff had people beg him(literally) to take their money. 2 stories of blind ambition. When 50 or 100 miles are adopted as the "regular"(ala Ironman) MTB race distances people are going to form but yet another line to learn the secrets of the world's most recognizable endurance athlete and his trainer. If their wealth equals hate these rants will grow larger and more angry. Nobody ever did call Bernie out, he was unable to pay people on their exit from his fund. The SEC and the FBI looked(look) like keystone cops. If Charmichael was guilty of anything and gave 250k of hush with the knowledge of the government goons you should probably refocus your disgust. A little bird told the SEC Bernie was dirty 10 years ago.....okay I did read the David Webb books about the CIA and the LA crack trade.

 

[Race Radio]

Point(s) taken.Madoff had people beg him(literally) to take their money. 2 stories of blind ambition. When 50 or 100 miles are adopted as the "regular"(ala Ironman) MTB race distances people are going to form but yet another line to learn the secrets of the world's most recognizable endurance athlete and his trainer. If their wealth equals hate these rants will grow larger and more angry. Nobody ever did call Bernie out, he was unable to pay people on their exit from his fund. The SEC and the FBI looked(look) like keystone cops. If Charmichael was guilty of anything and gave 250k of hush with the knowledge of the government goons you should probably refocus your disgust. A little bird told the SEC Bernie was dirty 10 years ago.....okay I did read the David Webb books about the CIA and the LA crack trade.

Lots of people called Bernie out, both publicly and privately. The SEC, like the UCI, did nothing.

 

[BroDeal]

Point(s) taken.Madoff had people beg him(literally) to take their money. 2 stories of blind ambition. When 50 or 100 miles are adopted as the "regular"(ala Ironman) MTB race distances people are going to form but yet another line to learn the secrets of the world's most recognizable endurance athlete and his trainer. If their wealth equals hate these rants will grow larger and more angry. Nobody ever did call Bernie out, he was unable to pay people on their exit from his fund. The SEC and the FBI looked(look) like keystone cops. If Charmichael was guilty of anything and gave 250k of hush with the knowledge of the government goons you should probably refocus your disgust. A little bird told the SEC Bernie was dirty 10 years ago.....okay I did read the David Webb books about the CIA and the LA crack trade.

I don't even know what half of this means, so I will instead say that what sucks about the PB100 doing this is the dishonesty. If they want to set aside 10% of the slots and charge $1k or $2K then fine. Instead they offer this bogus training camp. They let Carmichael siphon off some of the money, which brings up the question why. I'm sure they could sell the same number of slots without Carmichael, so why let Carmichael wet his beak? That the relationship with Carmichael started when Armstrong first did the race and Armstrong owns part of CTS seems to be a very big coincidence.

 

[fatandfast]

I don't even know what half of this means, so I will instead say that what sucks about the PB100 doing this is the dishonesty. If they want to set aside 10% of the slots and charge $1k or $2K then fine. Instead they offer this bogus training camp. They let Carmichael siphon off some of the money, which brings up the question why. I'm sure they could sell the same number of slots without Carmichael, so why let Carmichael wet his beak? That the relationship with Carmichael started when Armstrong first did the race and Armstrong owns part of CTS seems to be a very big coincidence.

I find it interesting that that most people are angry at the lack of a criminal conviction of Armstrong or Carmichael for anything. Through that filter everything is processed. Neither guy looks like they will get into any trouble other than with the paparazzi. In order to play Pebble Beach golf course you have to stay at least 1 night at The Inn at PB. Cheapest room @600 as part of a package. Who is siphoning anything? Races are in need of promotion and capital constantly. In my own personal experience,my club was told no numerous times while trying to stage a race in a busy downtown location. It was suggested to our club to use the service of a former Olympian as the part of the promotion of the race. He was added to a city counsel meeting,they skipped all new and old business,their faces lit up. They asked him a bunch of personal questions and the deal was done. Armstrong/Carmichael to a lesser extent have pull in bike racing and fund raising. Their affiliation with the event may be the difference between it's success or cancellation.Like it or not at this point in time Armstrong is king

 

[Wallace]

I think the initial outrage and anger about the Leadfill/CC scam was that qualified, experienced mtn bike racers were denied entry into the race, but told that if they paid a ton of money for a service they didn't need (expensive boutique coaching), they could do the race. The people who will pay for the coaching and do the race will most likely be people new to the sport with a ton of money. So Leadspill is lowering the quality of the field, and turning the whole race into a kind of yuppie outdoor experience, which goes against the grain of what a lot of people think mtn biking should be about.

 

[ProTour]

It never really was a mountain bike race anyways, the course is too mellow, and the competition is really pretty weak, despite all the hype it unfortunately gets. But that's why Lance chose it to race, it's perfect for him.

Anyone who wants to enter it and who considers it a real mountainbike race deserves to be scammed by Carmicheal. I wonder what percentage of the field next year will be his 'clients'.

 

[jim-bathrobes]

hi

it really very interesting thread

 

[euphrades]

I think the initial outrage and anger about the Leadfill/CC scam was that qualified, experienced mtn bike racers were denied entry into the race, but told that if they paid a ton of money for a service they didn't need (expensive boutique coaching), they could do the race. The people who will pay for the coaching and do the race will most likely be people new to the sport with a ton of money. So Leadspill is lowering the quality of the field, and turning the whole race into a kind of yuppie outdoor experience, which goes against the grain of what a lot of people think mtn biking should be about.

That is exactly the reason I started this thread. I am not going to learn anything new in two days that I haven't learned in 18 years of cycling that would make me finish Leadville. I know what needs to be done. Not to mention the camp is roughly 1 month before Leadville. If you aren't ready by then, then there isn't much you will gain those two days in terms of fitness or form.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

I think Wallace pretty much nailed it. Though yes, outside the distance and elevation, which do make it tough, it's really not that competitive, as ProTour says.

Lots of people called Bernie out, both publicly and privately. The SEC, like the UCI, did nothing.

Interesting comparison, the SEC to the UCI. Keep in mind though that with Bernie, it was the political culture at the time (and it still is in many people's eyes) that the government shouldn't get involved in such things at all, even if the law says to, and to do so is a form of "socialism". There is of course corruption and bribery behind that in the form of campaign financing and lobbying, which in a strange sense does make it like the UCI.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Anyone catch a glimpse of this poster from last year's race?

Says it all, in many, many ways.