LeMond and Trek Settle

[fatandfast]

Sorry, requires means, motive, and opportunity. Since the samples were anonymous there was no opportunity. Could not have happened.

This is true and false at the same time. The sticker sets that are used for the samples are yes numbers/bar codes. Each sample sealed and identified,with a number rather than a name for cross reference. If you think there are 10 people doing a sample battery for EPO that would be wrong. If you are in the lab and get 10 samples the day after a stage you can probably guess that in July that the samples did not come from a speed skater. If it turns out that France has so little money that they send the samples to Poland,Romania or China for testing at a third of the price, in my opinion there will be a greater chance to influence the outcome with a little cash. With 2 people and 500 hundred dollars I am sure that the UPS/DHL delivery guy will give me the address of where something is sent and at the other end I can see who it's delivered to.Maybe I watched too many spy movies or lived near Mexico for to long where a city cop will stop working and close a couple of streets for 60 bucks so we could have a race.

 

[Digger]

This is true and false at the same time. The sticker sets that are used for the samples are yes numbers/bar codes. Each sample sealed and identified,with a number rather than a name for cross reference. If you think there are 10 people doing a sample battery for EPO that would be wrong. If you are in the lab and get 10 samples the day after a stage you can probably guess that in July that the samples did not come from a speed skater. If it turns out that France has so little money that they send the samples to Poland,Romania or China for testing at a third of the price, in my opinion there will be a greater chance to influence the outcome with a little cash. With 2 people and 500 hundred dollars I am sure that the UPS/DHL delivery guy will give me the address of where something is sent and at the other end I can see who it's delivered to.Maybe I watched too many spy movies or lived near Mexico for to long where a city cop will stop working and close a couple of streets for 60 bucks so we could have a race.

edited........

 

[BroDeal]

This is true and false at the same time. The sticker sets that are used for the samples are yes numbers/bar codes. Each sample sealed and identified,with a number rather than a name for cross reference. If you think there are 10 people doing a sample battery for EPO that would be wrong. If you are in the lab and get 10 samples the day after a stage you can probably guess that in July that the samples did not come from a speed skater. If it turns out that France has so little money that they send the samples to Poland,Romania or China for testing at a third of the price, in my opinion there will be a greater chance to influence the outcome with a little cash. With 2 people and 500 hundred dollars I am sure that the UPS/DHL delivery guy will give me the address of where something is sent and at the other end I can see who it's delivered to.Maybe I watched too many spy movies or lived near Mexico for to long where a city cop will stop working and close a couple of streets for 60 bucks so we could have a race.

The batch of samples from a stage contains four or more samples. Most contain five or more. In order to spike Armstrong's samples, you have to guess which sample to spike six times. Disregarding the prologue samples, which were all positive, you have to guess right five times. With four samples per batch, you have a 1 in 1024 of getting it right. WIth five samples per batch the odds are 1 in 3125.

This does not take into account that the some samples that were negative were very close to being positive and they match the expected fall off in amounts of artificial EPO. Take this into account and the odds go up considerably.

 

[RTMcFadden]

You may want to reread what Ashenden wrote about spiking the samples, as he gives detailed reasons why it is highly unlikely. Please share with use the WADA document you refer to......and why you are at it please share with us any evidence of the samples being spikes and a conspiracy involving the UCI and the LNDD because this is mandatory for the samples to have been spiked.

WADA Technical Document TD2009EPO, version 2.0, effective Sept. 21, 2009, section 3.3 Stability Criteria. Specifies the addition of BPR or NESP at 1.5x the concentration used in the reference lanes. The NESP is identifeid in section 1 as Aranesp. BPR is identifed as the rEPO standard.

 

[patricknd]

Just reading your posts...you've added not one thing of substance to this forum. You seem to have little or no knolwedge of the sport, or the doping issue. You just attack posters for their views, but never provide anything which you yourself may have managed to come up with on your own. How long have you followed the sport? Because, aside from your attacks on posters, what have you brought to this discussion? What knowledge do you have...any specifics?

I don't even know where to start here...it's beyond belief.

pot meet kettle, eh digger?

 

[Digger]

pot meet kettle, eh digger?

Yes....you do it practically every post...actually, every post I've seen from you there has been some insult.

 

[buckwheat]

Fact, They started human testing in or around 1969 with Erythropoietin....and human Epo in the mid 70's.........a lot of drugs that are in the pre-FDA testing phase are super easy to get a hold of b/c they are not under regulation....

yes, LeMond was using Epo in 1976 when he was 15 and racing John Howard.

edit, I'm sorry, in 1978 at 17 using junior gears.

http://bikeraceinfo.com/oralhistory/lemond.html

 

[fatandfast]

brodeal I was not saying anything specific about LA, just that the organizers would surely like for all the samples to come back negative. Once the samples are sent bout of the country to be tested I think the quality of the work and results will go down. I don't buy into the the evil plot against anybody. It's all about the cash,all races want to hand out trophies and cash,take pictures and put it in the books.Taking the yellow jersey or medal from a racer hurts everybody.

 

[buckwheat]

Fact, They started human testing in or around 1969 with Erythropoietin....and human Epo in the mid 70's.........a lot of drugs that are in the pre-FDA testing phase are super easy to get a hold of b/c they are not under regulation....

But apparently they weren't easy enough to get in '87 when LeMond was shot and had a damned good therapeutic reason for utilzing them.

Keep up with the slander. Your version of "facts" represents an alternate reality. We're dealing with the reality based world here.

 

[buckwheat]

brodeal I was not saying anything specific about LA, just that the organizers would surely like for all the samples to come back negative. Once the samples are sent bout of the country to be tested I think the quality of the work and results will go down. I don't buy into the the evil plot against anybody. It's all about the cash,all races want to hand out trophies and cash,take pictures and put it in the books.Taking the yellow jersey or medal from a racer hurts everybody.

Really,

Taking the gold medal from Ben Johnson hurt the Olympics?

You have it backwards. The fraud is the evil. Not the shining a light on it.

Your morals are backwards.

It's not about cash. It's about the truth, the most important thing in life.

 

[buckwheat]

Yes, and the point I was addressing was the means. That is, it is technically possibile to introduce EPO into a sample. That's a fact. The rest, motive and opportunity, are conjecture. Believe what you will.

Really, and spike them so the samples show a declining amount of epo in chronological order after the rest days?

This being done with anonymous samples.

Don't take any acid, you may be susceptible to flying off roofs.

 

[buckwheat]

I'll give you an example. You're contention that LeMond couldn't have used EPO in 89 because it didn't exist. When the fact is that is has existed in commerical form in 1986.

I'm feeling generous, so I'll give you another one. Armstrong's samples couldn't have been spiked because Ashenden said he did know how it could be done. Fact is, there is a WADA technical document that provides the instruction as to when a sample should be spiked to establish if the sample has been tampered with.

Fact is that most of the people on this board can't tell the difference between fact and conjecture. That's why they believe that conjecture and personal opinion are seldom used on this board. When the fact is that 99% of the stuff on this board is conjecture and personal opinion.

What's amazing, to me, is that I've been able to do this without having to resort to refuting the "ball licking" and "chamois sniffing" facts that are so often presented on this board.

So LeMond was also taking EPO in '79 when it became widely known on a world stage that he was going to be the next great rider.

When he won the Tour de l' Avenir by more than 10 minutes at 21 years old? You're so desperate to defend Armstrong you're embarrasing yourself.

 

[red_flanders]

yes, LeMond was using Epo in 1976 when he was 15 and racing John Howard.

edit, I'm sorry, in 1978 at 17 using junior gears.

http://bikeraceinfo.com/oralhistory/lemond.html

Should be required reading for those posting opinions about LeMond.

 

[fatandfast]

Really,

Taking the gold medal from Ben Johnson hurt the Olympics?

You have it backwards. The fraud is the evil. Not the shining a light on it.

Your morals are backwards.

It's not about cash. It's about the truth, the most important thing in life.

absolutely. When the results are tainted and the average viewer thinks that the outcome is non-permanent it hurts everybody. After a tour stage the parents and kids getting their photo taken at what they think to be positive and special event have the rug pulled out from under them when the pro in their photo pis-ses positive and has to give back his prize and jersey. All the money Ben Johnson could have raised for charity is dried up once he is a doper. His message to kids about look at me you can do it will never be given because nobody needs a motivational speaker that got popped for being juiced. Cycling's every result are clouded with questions about the performance possibly being doped. Look to Spain,Germany can't find sponsors to save the life of most of their teams. Your truth thing probably inspires you to go up to an overweight person in the store and explain whats wrong with them.Your quest for truth in some absolute form will probably not get you too many party invitations.

 

[Hugh Januss]

absolutely. When the results are tainted and the average viewer thinks that the outcome is non-permanent it hurts everybody. After a tour stage the parents and kids getting their photo taken at what they think to be positive and special event have the rug pulled out from under them when the pro in their photo pis-ses positive and has to give back his prize and jersey. All the money Ben Johnson could have raised for charity is dried up once he is a doper. His message to kids about look at me you can do it will never be given because nobody needs a motivational speaker that got popped for being juiced. Cycling's every result are clouded with questions about the performance possibly being doped. Look to Spain,Germany can't find sponsors to save the life of most of their teams. Your truth thing probably inspires you to go up to an overweight person in the store and explain whats wrong with them.Your quest for truth in some absolute form will probably not get you too many party invitations.

Obviously you have had a few too many party invitations if you think blame for the state of pro cycling should be laid at the feet of antidoping advocates. FFS man do you not have any principles at all?
"We know everyone is doping, and that a talented kid who aspires to the pro level has no choice but to do the same. Shut up about it and play the game by the cheaters rules, because outwise it might be bad for the short term bottom line."

 

[mitchman]

I did not say, nor do I think GL took Epo's or Erythropoietin....I was just pointing out that they were available. Just Like HGH was long before they hit the mass market...I don't even think Food and Drug Administration approved the hormone untill the early 90's....

 

[bianchigirl]

Of course labs know how to spike samples with EPO - to act as control samples. Ashenden more than adequately explains how the samples couldn't have been spiked to reflect the action of exogenous EPO in a cyclist's body over a 3 week Tour.

 

[fatandfast]

Obviously you have had a few too many party invitations if you think blame for the state of pro cycling should be laid at the feet of antidoping advocates. FFS man do you not have any principles at all?
"We know everyone is doping, and that a talented kid who aspires to the pro level has no choice but to do the same. Shut up about it and play the game by the cheaters rules, because outwise it might be bad for the short term bottom line."

I see your point and think it holds water. Most pro bike racers are not anti-doping, it will never be spoken. Big money sports are dealing with this issue right now with ethics panels and union reps. In pro football they decided after lots of press and pressure that they would address head injuries. What has come forth is nothing short of a disaster for the league. Big name players sitting on the side lines with concussions. Concussions to a certain extent happen every play without exception. The league doctors are in on the action saying "ok you slammed your head into another guy and have x,y,z symptoms take a week off" a real neurologist would say take 6 weeks off and come back for further tests. Bike racers if during a routine exam would be found to be bordering anemic and with severe fatigue most of the season. Just as no "real" doctor will tell a guy to run back to back marathons in the same week. The demands of pro cycling require a whole different set of rules. The fact that it still exists is proof, soon it will have same stigma as boxing. Yes hardcore fans but very little interest. Cycling needs to get rid of Olympic anything and call the UFC PR firm.

 

[Hugh Januss]

I see your point and think it holds water. Most pro bike racers are not anti-doping, it will never be spoken. Big money sports are dealing with this issue right now with ethics panels and union reps. In pro football they decided after lots of press and pressure that they would address head injuries. What has come forth is nothing short of a disaster for the league. Big name players sitting on the side lines with concussions. Concussions to a certain extent happen every play without exception. The league doctors are in on the action saying "ok you slammed your head into another guy and have x,y,z symptoms take a week off" a real neurologist would say take 6 weeks off and come back for further tests. Bike racers if during a routine exam would be found to be bordering anemic and with severe fatigue most of the season. Just as no "real" doctor will tell a guy to run back to back marathons in the same week. The demands of pro cycling require a whole different set of rules. The fact that it still exists is proof, soon it will have same stigma as boxing. Yes hardcore fans but very little interest. Cycling needs to get rid of Olympic anything and call the UFC PR firm.

I think the majority of pros would be happier if they thought there was no need to dope to keep up. It can't be that much fun, having to spend 10% of your paycheck on something that can get you essentially fired for 2 years. If there was a reasonable expectation that the dopers would all be caught then the majority would be only too happy to stop.
But that is not even what we are talking about here. We are talking about the fact that many cycling fans want to blame the few riders who do stand up to the omerta, and the fans who are outspoken in their condemnation of doping, and even the labs that actually catch cheaters for the PR problem that cycling has, instead of blaming the tradition of doping and omerta that has been allowed to permeate the sport.

 

[Race Radio]

Because the final testing, known as Phase III clinical trials, is performed using commerical product. There is a suttle distinction in the use of the term commercial. It does not mean product for sale, it means product that is salable, or fit for sale. The only thing that prevents it from being sold is the approval of the FDA. Since the early 90's this usually means that the first commercial batch is producted 18 month before the FDA approves the product. Before that, it could have been years.

I wonder if the same Nazi frogmen who spiked Armstrong's samples also broke into Amgen to steal the pre release EPO so Greg could use it to win the Tour?

 

[buckwheat]

absolutely. When the results are tainted and the average viewer thinks that the outcome is non-permanent it hurts everybody..

How about the clean riders?

After a tour stage the parents and kids getting their photo taken at what they think to be positive and special event have the rug pulled out from under them when the pro in their photo pis-ses positive and has to give back his prize and jersey..

Kids shouldn't be taught idolatry. You ever see "A Bronx Tale?" DeNiro's speech about who the heroic people are, the one's who go to work every day.

All the money Ben Johnson could have raised for charity is dried up once he is a doper...

If we had a more just world we wouldn't have as much need for charity.

His message to kids about look at me you can do it will never be given because nobody needs a motivational speaker that got popped for being juiced...

You really think that's such a great message?

Cycling's every result are clouded with questions about the performance possibly being doped. ...

They should be clouded. Should people close their eyes?

Look to Spain,Germany can't find sponsors to save the life of most of their teams.

Good! In Scandanavian countries and a lot of European countries many people ride bikes as a means of transportation.. The sport should be built at the grass roots for kids who want to be fit and have a good time, not a bunch of screwballs like many pros.

Your truth thing probably inspires you to go up to an overweight person in the store and explain whats wrong with them..

Where do you come up with this stuff? Calling out Pharmstrong for being a fraud is a lot different than being a rude jerk.

Your quest for truth in some absolute form will probably not get you too many party invitations.

Good grief! I'm tactful. I don't have much of a tolerance for phonies though.

 

[RTMcFadden]

Good grief! I'm tactful. I don't have much of a tolerance for phonies though.

Surely you jest.

 

[progressor]

I'll give you an example. You're contention that LeMond couldn't have used EPO in 89 because it didn't exist. When the fact is that is has existed in commerical form in 1986.

I'm feeling generous, so I'll give you another one. Armstrong's samples couldn't have been spiked because Ashenden said he did know how it could be done. Fact is, there is a WADA technical document that provides the instruction as to when a sample should be spiked to establish if the sample has been tampered with.

Fact is that most of the people on this board can't tell the difference between fact and conjecture. That's why they believe that conjecture and personal opinion are seldom used on this board. When the fact is that 99% of the stuff on this board is conjecture and personal opinion.

What's amazing, to me, is that I've been able to do this without having to resort to refuting the "ball licking" and "chamois sniffing" facts that are so often presented on this board.

good post, clearly wasted on the usual suspects given what they posted following it. Theres nothing more impressive than people who ridicule the intelligence of someone because they lack the ability to understand their point,and choose to define anything they can't comprehend as non-existent. Some of them seem incapable of understanding that a counterargument isn't necessarily a personal point of view

 

[WonderLance]

good post, clearly wasted on the usual suspects given what they posted following it. Theres nothing more impressive than people who ridicule the intelligence of someone because they lack the ability to understand their point,and choose to define anything they can't comprehend as non-existent. Some of them seem incapable of understanding that a counterargument isn't necessarily a personal point of view

Yes Mama. Thats a great point. These ball hating, internet heros can't even grasp the simple facts that there is a french conspiracy out to get Lance, I've seen France on my tv and all the cheese eating surender monkeys were yelling "we hate lance" and "we love hairy armpits" and stuff like that.

Greg clearly doped cos lance didnt and greg thinks lance doped and lance didnt so therefore greg must have doped. I think we can all agree on that.

 

[Mellow Velo]

Great, love it!
You forgot to mention that they rub that cheese into their hairy Armstrongs.....sorry armpits, so they can get up his nose.