LeMond I

[mewmewmew13]

too bad you couldn't have sized it down a bit Papp.

 

[ChrisE]

I knew that this post was coming from you. And as I've said, I think a 2012 Greg Lemond would have given a very different answer to those same questions. He'd been out of the loop, Festina hadn't broken yet and he was still carrying his pre-retirement knowledge of O2 vectors with him.

Lemond on a top-notch oxygen vector program would have been one heck of a sight.

Yes, yes. You know this because you saw him race as a junior in the 70's, and he scared people when he showed up at races with jr. gears.

I saw this in 89/90 with another young American, against much larger fields due to the much greater popularity of US cycling that GL created. I saw this guy solo lap jr fields in crits then come back and place high in pro 1/2's. Does that mean that young American was superman as well?

Anyway OK, let's start from Festina. Did GL have any post 98 interviews where he admits EPO caused the ending of his career? I am basically looking for his realization it wasn't the blood disease and it was EPO. How somebody could go from testing for a disease to then dismissing it is rather bizzare to me.

At what point in time did he morph from dumb**** to PED-use-in-the-peloton guru? Did he ever clarify this?

 

[rhubroma]

Yes, yes. You know this because you saw him race as a junior in the 70's, and he scared people when he showed up at races with jr. gears.

I saw this in 89/90 with another young American, against much larger fields due to the much greater popularity of US cycling that GL created. I saw this guy solo lap jr fields in crits then come back and place high in pro 1/2's. Does that mean that young American was superman as well?

Anyway OK, let's start from Festina. Did GL have any post 98 interviews where he admits EPO caused the ending of his career? I am basically looking for his realization it wasn't the blood disease and it was EPO. How somebody could go from testing for a disease to then dismissing it is rather bizzare to me.

At what point in time did he morph from dumb**** to PED-use-in-the-peloton guru? Did he ever clarify this?

But Lance was juiced even then.

 

[Boeing]

Judging from flyer he gave me back in the late 90's, Starr is no stranger to the ins and out of performance enhancers. I may still have it somewhere, but the jist of it was that his biz at the time was to assist folks in using and obtaining. It was very blatant with no attempt to sugarcoat.

Maybe someone else here remembers that phase of his career?

One cool thing about ol' Oliver though...for a time he took in and cared for domesticated wolves & hybrids after their owners realized that they were in over their heads with their "pets." So perhaps his douchbaggery doesn't go clear to the bone.

He had a pet turtle too.

 

[BotanyBay]

At what point in time did he morph from dumb**** to PED-use-in-the-peloton guru? Did he ever clarify this?

I've never really seen him try and speak authoritatively on PED use in the common era. I've merely seen him speak more OF it. And I think since he has the same access to data that you and I do, that he is now very entitled to his opinions about what likely happened to his career. If I were a judge, I'd allow him as an expert witness.

During his prime, he was bleeding edge as far as using technology and optimization to increase the effectiveness of his training. He was not only a great rider, he was damn intelligent and research-based He was using HRMs and Power Meters long before most. I remember reading an article about him that influenced my decision to buy an HRM in '87.

 

[Stravoski]

Greg Lemond was a tremendous athlete. What made his victories in the Tour's of 1986, 1989 and 1990 all the more remarkable was that he achieved these three victories clean against fields, which many of whom were charged up on the various performance enhancing drugs available at the time.

 

[Gregga]

Greg Lemond was a tremendous athlete. What made his victories in the Tour's of 1986, 1989 and 1990 all the more remarkable was that he achieved these three victories clean against fields, which many of whom were charged up on the various performance enhancing drugs available at the time.

That's true, especially in 1990. Last week I spent a good time viewing on Youtube several videos of the 1990 TdF, it was nice to see him winning against probably some of the first EPO users, who have had a sudden step of power that special year (Chiappucci, Bugno, Alcala an Indurain for sure, maybe also Breukink). GL was naturally gifted, but today on the Giro, even at the top of his form, he would have lost 1 or 2 minutes on Ryder Hesjedal...

 

[DirtyWorks]

Greg Lemond was a tremendous athlete. What made his victories in the Tour's of 1986, 1989 and 1990 all the more remarkable was that he achieved these three victories clean against fields, which many of whom were charged up on the various performance enhancing drugs available at the time.

Even more to the point, his generation was just about the last where the potential winners of Grand Tours raced full calendars and raced at the sharp end most every time!

If you take the time to dig through online video from one-day races in his era, he will be there on the sharp end too. His and other rider's consistency across many different events is a clue that they were riding without EPO.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Yes, yes. You know this because you saw him race as a junior in the 70's, and he scared people when he showed up at races with jr. gears.

Yes, just ignore his field-crushing results from "amateur" international events. Ignore too testimonial from other elite American riders during his era developing or racing.

I saw this in 89/90 with another young American, against much larger fields due to the much greater popularity of US cycling that GL created.

http://ccforums.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=7243
http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-500164_162-284958.html

Funny how Armstrong was on the same team.... but no way he was doped and the rest of the team was required to receive injections. No way.

 

[rhubroma]

That's true, especially in 1990. Last week I spent a good time viewing on Youtube several videos of the 1990 TdF, it was nice to see him winning against probably some of the first EPO users, who have had a sudden step of power that special year (Chiappucci, Bugno, Alcala an Indurain for sure, maybe also Breukink). GL was naturally gifted, but today on the Giro, even at the top of his form, he would have lost 1 or 2 minutes on Ryder Hesjedal...

I don't know. 20 years have passed, presumably today he'd be on the same program. And thus droping the others.

 

[joe_papp]

Yes, just ignore his field-crushing results from "amateur" international events. Ignore too testimonial from other elite American riders during his era developing or racing.

http://ccforums.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=7243
http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-500164_162-284958.html

Funny how Armstrong was on the same team.... but no way he was doped and the rest of the team was required to receive injections. No way.

Q: Why does someone like ChrisE even post to cycling forums when all he seemingly does is relentlessly slag-off anyone who is held in high esteem by others?
A: b/c he's a masterful troll?

Q: And perhaps more importantly, why do you continue to engage him, when he's obviously not interested in any rational discussion and repeats the same themes ad nauseum?
A: B/c it's fun to whack-a-mole?

Honestly I don't know but I no longer give him the time of day after having "Ignored" him - it's great, his posts don't even show-up unless others quote them (and even then I only see excerpts). His relentless arguing with anyone and everyone who appreciates LeMond and believes he raced without having to manipulate his Hct or HgB, for example, is evidence of not just general dooshbaggery, but something more serious - some kind of personality disorder, perhaps, or other mental illness that allows him to ignore reality and make-up "facts/evidence" to "support" his "beliefs."

LeMond rode Roubaix, for chrissakes, and finished top-5 - AND he won three Tours! World Champ. National Champ. Sportsman of the Year. Extraordinary time trialist, climber, stage racer, who could also race competitively in the Classics and defeat "sprinters" like Kelly in the Sprint, when conditions favored him!

Why let a ****ant like ChrisE or MarkVW or any hater get so under your skin that you dangle pseudo-legitimacy in front of them by deigning to reply to their self-loathing attacks on truly heroic and great figures like LeMond?

LeMond had no need to dope to win the Tour de France, unlike many of the riders who followed him during the "Indurain Era" and beyond...riders who sold their souls to alchemists like Ferrari and merchants of the forbidden like myself who enabled them to cheat and perform in unnatural ways by providing, instructing and supervising in the misuse of synthetic molecules.

 

[Anonymous]

Q: Why does someone like ChrisE even post to cycling forums when all he seemingly does is relentlessly slag-off anyone who is held in high esteem by others?
A: b/c he's a masterful troll?

Q: And perhaps more importantly, why do you continue to engage him, when he's obviously not interested in any rational discussion and repeats the same themes ad nauseum?
A: B/c it's fun to whack-a-mole?

Honestly I don't know but I no longer give him the time of day after having "Ignored" him - it's great, his posts don't even show-up unless others quote them (and even then I only see excerpts). His relentless arguing with anyone and everyone who appreciates LeMond and believes he raced without having to manipulate his Hct or HgB, for example, is evidence of not just general dooshbaggery, but something more serious - some kind of personality disorder, perhaps, or other mental illness that allows him to ignore reality and make-up "facts/evidence" to "support" his "beliefs."

LeMond rode Roubaix, for chrissakes, and finished top-5 - AND he won three Tours! World Champ. National Champ. Sportsman of the Year. Extraordinary time trialist, climber, stage racer, who could also race competitively in the Classics and defeat "sprinters" like Kelly in the Sprint, when conditions favored him!

Why let a ****ant like ChrisE or MarkVW or any hater get so under your skin that you dangle pseudo-legitimacy in front of them by deigning to reply to their self-loathing attacks on truly heroic and great figures like LeMond?

LeMond had no need to dope to win the Tour de France, unlike many of the riders who followed him during the "Indurain Era" and beyond...riders who sold their souls to alchemists like Ferrari and merchants of the forbidden like myself who enabled them to cheat and perform in unnatural ways by providing, instructing and supervising in the misuse of synthetic molecules.

A: b/c he's a masterful troll?

No question mark needed. He used to be much better though.

 

[TechnicalDescent]

Joe, do you think LeMond could have won a tour clean in the 1990s and 2000s?

 

[hiero2]

Could Lemond have won a Tour 1993 or after while riding clean? Don't even need Joe to answer that. Lemond answered it by retiring.

 

[Polish]

If you aked Greg himself if his fitness in 91 and beyond was enough to win the TdF even if no riders were doping - Greg would truthfully answer "No".

IIRC, he WAS asked that question and he DID answer "No".

 

[Caruut]

If you aked Greg himself if his fitness in 91 and beyond was enough to win the TdF even if no riders were doping - Greg would truthfully answer "No".

IIRC, he WAS asked that question and he DID answer "No".

Exactly when he was asked that question is crucial, though. At the time, he wasn't aware of how potent EPO was.

 

[BotanyBay]

If you aked Greg himself if his fitness in 91 and beyond was enough to win the TdF even if no riders were doping - Greg would truthfully answer "No".

IIRC, he WAS asked that question and he DID answer "No".

Yes, and as he also quietly thought to himself "what the hell is wrong with me, why do I suck so bad now?". The guy tortured himself for years trying to figure it out. When he retired, he wasn't winding anything down. The guy was almost beside himself in grief. And for good reason. His retirement was like the day the music died.

He was desperate to find answers, and when you're that desperate, you end up finding them one way or another. When he started talking about that mitochondrial myopathy stuff, it was like he was just trying to find some kind of closure.

Sort of like how a crime victim seeks closure.

 

[Jeremiah]

Yeah, ok!

If you aked Greg himself if his fitness in 91 and beyond was enough to win the TdF even if no riders were doping - Greg would truthfully answer "No".

IIRC, he WAS asked that question and he DID answer "No".

http://www.cyclingnews.com/blogs/greg-lemond/the-art-of-peaking-for-the-tour-de-france-1

By 1991, however, my performance had begun to wane. I finished seventh and was devastated because I did not believe that I could lose the Tour de France if I arrived at the start in good condition, as I did that year.

 

[Hugh Januss]

You guys are all totally bumming Polisher's buzz, he wants to think that LA was somewhere close to as legit as Greg was. Impossible? Yeah, probably. But he can dream.........

 

[ultimobici]

GL was naturally gifted, but today on the Giro, even at the top of his form, he would have lost 1 or 2 minutes on Ryder Hesjedal...

Are you joking? GL finished on the podium at his first attempt in 1985 & 4th the year after. That podium was after his Young Rider win in the previous year's Tour as well as being barely 24.

Suggest you go back to youtube and look up pre-shooting Lemond. If you only base your opinion on post shooting you are not seeing Lemond for real.

 

[Stingray34]

Q: Why does someone like ChrisE even post to cycling forums when all he seemingly does is relentlessly slag-off anyone who is held in high esteem by others?
A: b/c he's a masterful troll?

Q: And perhaps more importantly, why do you continue to engage him, when he's obviously not interested in any rational discussion and repeats the same themes ad nauseum?
A: B/c it's fun to whack-a-mole?

Honestly I don't know but I no longer give him the time of day after having "Ignored" him - it's great, his posts don't even show-up unless others quote them (and even then I only see excerpts). His relentless arguing with anyone and everyone who appreciates LeMond and believes he raced without having to manipulate his Hct or HgB, for example, is evidence of not just general dooshbaggery, but something more serious - some kind of personality disorder, perhaps, or other mental illness that allows him to ignore reality and make-up "facts/evidence" to "support" his "beliefs."

LeMond rode Roubaix, for chrissakes, and finished top-5 - AND he won three Tours! World Champ. National Champ. Sportsman of the Year. Extraordinary time trialist, climber, stage racer, who could also race competitively in the Classics and defeat "sprinters" like Kelly in the Sprint, when conditions favored him!

Why let a ****ant like ChrisE or MarkVW or any hater get so under your skin that you dangle pseudo-legitimacy in front of them by deigning to reply to their self-loathing attacks on truly heroic and great figures like LeMond?

LeMond had no need to dope to win the Tour de France, unlike many of the riders who followed him during the "Indurain Era" and beyond...riders who sold their souls to alchemists like Ferrari and merchants of the forbidden like myself who enabled them to cheat and perform in unnatural ways by providing, instructing and supervising in the misuse of synthetic molecules.

Excellent post, Joe; LeMond=Champ, ChrisE=malcontent ODD-sufferer.

 

[Benotti69]

Excellent post, Joe; LeMond=Champ, ChrisE=malcontent ODD-sufferer.

+1

10characters

 

[MacRoadie]

GL was naturally gifted, but today on the Giro, even at the top of his form, he would have lost 1 or 2 minutes on Ryder Hesjedal...

Uh, no.....

 

[ultimobici]

Yes, and as he also quietly thought to himself "what the hell is wrong with me, why do I suck so bad now?". The guy tortured himself for years trying to figure it out. When he retired, he wasn't winding anything down. The guy was almost beside himself in grief. And for good reason. His retirement was like the day the music died.

He was desperate to find answers, and when you're that desperate, you end up finding them one way or another. When he started talking about that mitochondrial myopathy stuff, it was like he was just trying to find some kind of closure.

Sort of like how a crime victim seeks closure.

Just found this in an issue of Winning from June 1991

 

[Jeremiah]

That's true, especially in 1990. Last week I spent a good time viewing on Youtube several videos of the 1990 TdF, it was nice to see him winning against probably some of the first EPO users, who have had a sudden step of power that special year (Chiappucci, Bugno, Alcala an Indurain for sure, maybe also Breukink). GL was naturally gifted, but today on the Giro, even at the top of his form, he would have lost 1 or 2 minutes on Ryder Hesjedal...

So you're saying that Hesjedal is as jacked as all of those guys who brought LeMond down from 91-94?

A new drug or just blood bags? Damn, hard to believe he's doing this right under JV's nose. If RH is exposed that's the end of cycling!