LeMond I

[runninboy]

IMO Lemond means well. His biggest problem is that he doesnt come across well in the media. Ego still comes into the picture to some extent and Greg would no doubt be hurting that others have eclipsed his performances Without trying to speculate on Lemonds claims one way or another, I personally know of many pros from the 80s that rode without doping and were still competative with those that did. I remember racing alongside him in Belgium while he was with PDM. This was during his comeback from his accident and he was struggling to stay in contact like us mortals. The following year he won the Tour. Maybe his cause would be better served if he chose a different platform on which to further it.

I know its irrelevent but he needs to get himself in better shape. He looks like s...t!

It wasn't the 80's so much as the early 90's, so it makes sense that the clean pros in the 80's could do well.

I also have a problem with people who say he is fat and should do something about it

Do you have the better part of two buckshot loads in your internals?
Do you have any idea what kind of havoc is going on inside his body?
I guess he should get lipo so he will look more pleasing to you

 

[Dr. Maserati]

wrong
sorry but someone who knows him very well claims otherwise.

there was an andy hampsten interview where he supports Greg and says anyone who believes Greg is doing this to protect his legacy is flat out wrong

http://www.tdfblog.com/2004/07/hampsten_voices.html

Wow... Andy Hampsten was a 'hero' of mine back when I believed in heroic performances - I don't follow any riders now as I have been let down so many times in the past, yet it is heartening to see an ex-pro like him still care for the sport to give his opinions and be objective.

He has become heroic yet again. Thank you for this amazing link.

 

[Altimax]

From what I see, Greg Lemond is doing nothing wrong. He is doing exactly what half the journo's in the press conferences don't have the guts to do and asking the hard un-popular questions.

All he is saying is- Your performance is outstanding and to some it may appear a little too outstanding. Please supply some information on your VO2 max/power etc, then I will either A. applaud you with the rest of the world, get by in my box and shut up or B. Yes as I expected, your a dope.

But the fact must remain that it is a natural reaction, for most people, that when accused of something they are not guilty off, they generally go out of their way to clear themselves.

This man has the balls to make an un-popular accusation, be it right or wrong, these athletes should have the proffesional integrity to shut him up, or role over and fade away themselves. Leaving the world second guessing on something they refuse to clear up is not good for their or the sports image.

'Next question' or 'No comment is not good enough.

He may have cast the first un-popular stone, its now there chance to throw it back.

Lastly before people reply, I sincerley hope that Greg Lemond is wrong, but if he is, it still doesn't make him a bad person, just an inquisitive and intelligent man who asked.

 

[beroepsrenner]

It wasn't the 80's so much as the early 90's, so it makes sense that the clean pros in the 80's could do well.

I also have a problem with people who say he is fat and should do something about it

Do you have the better part of two buckshot loads in your internals?
Do you have any idea what kind of havoc is going on inside his body?
I guess he should get lipo so he will look more pleasing to you

Sorry! How shallow of me.
You may well be right in what you say about the differences in doping effects between the 2 time periods.

 

[SlantParallelogram]

I also have a problem with people who say he is fat and should do something about it

Do you have the better part of two buckshot loads in your internals?
Do you have any idea what kind of havoc is going on inside his body?
I guess he should get lipo so he will look more pleasing to you

It is his own fault for going hunting.

What a complete idiot.

He should start an anti-hunting campaign.

That is what really ended his career. He doesn't want people to remember that his own idiocy ended his career, so now he has to say everybody was using performance enhancing drugs.

 

[Digger]

It is his own fault for going hunting.

What a complete idiot.

He should start an anti-hunting campaign.

That is what really ended his career. He doesn't want people to remember that his own idiocy ended his career, so now he has to say everybody was using performance enhancing drugs.

Possibly one of the most ignorant comments I've seen. Unbelievable. So, if I get into a car accident, someone hits my car and I wasn't to blame, is it my fault for going driving?
Anyway, Greg Lemond won two Tours and a World Championship after the hunting accident, so that point is mute by you....Seriously though why bother with people like you....

 

[SlantParallelogram]

Possibly one of the most ignorant comments I've seen. Unbelievable. So, if I get into a car accident, someone hits my car and I wasn't to blame, is it my fault for going driving?
Anyway, Greg Lemond won two Tours and a World Championship after the hunting accident, so that point is mute by you....Seriously though why bother with people like you....

The word you were looking for is "moot". The word "mute" has a totally different meaning. What was that you were saying about ignorance?

He is still an idiot for engaging in risky behavior. People get accidentally shot all the time while hunting.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

The word you were looking for is "moot". The word "mute" has a totally different meaning. What was that you were saying about ignorance?

He is still an idiot for engaging in risky behavior. People get accidentally shot all the time while hunting.

Cycling is a sport that could be classed as engaging in risky behaviour .....are we all idiots to go riding on our bikes?

 

[Escarabajo]

It is his own fault for going hunting.

What a complete idiot.

He should start an anti-hunting campaign.

That is what really ended his career. He doesn't want people to remember that his own idiocy ended his career, so now he has to say everybody was using performance enhancing drugs.

I still don't get your point?


So nobody can't engage in risky sports or actions otherwise they will be called idiots? Do you have a list of actions of what we can or can't do?

 

[SlantParallelogram]

Do you have a list of actions of what we can or can't do?

I don't have a list. However, if you are a millionaire earning big money you might want to avoid redneck hillbilly type activities like hunting.

 

[runninboy]

I don't have a list. However, if you are a millionaire earning big money you might want to avoid redneck hillbilly type activities like hunting.

while you might think it is a redneck activity Hunters are responsible for the well being of many wildlife species.

Deer in Iowa were basically extinct in the early 1900's but Hunters in that state paid to reintroduce them and they have thrived. Unfortunately the attitude such as yours has resulted in hunting being less popular so the deer have overpopulated and with more competition for diminished resources & more inbreeding, the health of the deer have suffered resulting in smaller, weakened & diseased deer.
Just one example. If people stopped hunting alot of the wildlife would succumb to disease & starvation. This has happened in more than one area of the country, malnourished deer wandering the suburbs for food. Not a pretty sight.

In a healthy ecosystem there must be predators, man, whether you like it or not, is a predator. Remove him from the system and it goes out of balance.

 

[Oldman]

Deer Hunting in Minnesota

Runningboy,
Drinking and guns don't mix. Lots of people get shot accidentally but many get shot by inexperienced hunters, like Greg. This deer hunt was less sport and more family fun; Greg paid the price by being in front of a relative with a gun. This has nothing to do with his crusade to purify the sport or preservation of wildlife. His buckshot count is no more relevant than broken collarbones or ribs to other competitors. The overall issue is what voice to you give to the discussion-one of sage credence based on fact or an Inquistion seeking Heretics.

 

[runninboy]

Runningboy,
Drinking and guns don't mix. Lots of people get shot accidentally but many get shot by inexperienced hunters, like Greg. This deer hunt was less sport and more family fun; Greg paid the price by being in front of a relative with a gun. This has nothing to do with his crusade to purify the sport or preservation of wildlife. His buckshot count is no more relevant than broken collarbones or ribs to other competitors. The overall issue is what voice to you give to the discussion-one of sage credence based on fact or an Inquistion seeking Heretics.

Um Ok.... you know alot about the incident i guess, drinking and all the facts
like the purpose etc
and you say they were deer hunting?
That is wrong, as well as drinking was not involved, it was not minnesota, it was CA close to Sacramento and for the record Turkey hunting
so i guess in reality you don't know much
and i bet you don't know much about the effects of lead inside the body either
5 pellets still in the heart , 5 in the liver...


Greg competed at the highest level of the sport, Andy Hampsten & Paul Kimmage have backed up his allegations as legitimate
I tend to believe them no matter what Greg does in the off season

 

[rhubroma]

while you might think it is a redneck activity Hunters are responsible for the well being of many wildlife species.

Deer in Iowa were basically extinct in the early 1900's but Hunters in that state paid to reintroduce them and they have thrived. Unfortunately the attitude such as yours has resulted in hunting being less popular so the deer have overpopulated and with more competition for diminished resources & more inbreeding, the health of the deer have suffered resulting in smaller, weakened & diseased deer.
Just one example. If people stopped hunting alot of the wildlife would succumb to disease & starvation. This has happened in more than one area of the country, malnourished deer wandering the suburbs for food. Not a pretty sight.

In a healthy ecosystem there must be predators, man, whether you like it or not, is a predator. Remove him from the system and it goes out of balance.

Now, wait a second, and I'm not pro nor con, but man has far overstepped his limits in terms of taking from (over) nature that which is proportionally his. If man had a better sense of proportion and measure, the overpopulation issue would be moot. In other words, man has encroached far more upon the deers' teritory, than the deers have his...

I have to say, though, idiots aside, that that hunting accident should never have happened. And I loved Greg's career. But a man in his privledged postion, the first American to have won the Tour (a pro ccylist), has a responsibility to his fans and sponsors. That said, how does one know always when one is engaging in too risky activities?

 

[SlantParallelogram]

That said, how does one know always when one is engaging in too risky activities?

If guns are involved it is probably risky.

 

[runninboy]

Now, wait a second, and I'm not pro nor con, but man has far overstepped his limits in terms of taking from (over) nature that which is proportionally his. If man had a better sense of proportion and measure, the overpopulation issue would be moot. In other words, man has encroached far more upon the deers' teritory, than the deers have his...

QUOTE]

Never said man was innocent, we have taken too many predators besides man out of the balance like coyotes & wolves. then we introduced species to places where they were not native.(such as Pheasants which are asian no north american pheasant) and they proliferate. Which was ok a few decades ago when there were alot more hunters. Now the predators are reduced and man is hunting less. Huge flocks of Canadian Geese now present serious health hazards when they move into sports complexes and deficate for days
**** through a goose ring a bell?
Ask people on RAGBRAI who were supposed to camp out on a field that became inches deep with goose crap. Geese used to be rare in IA now they are a health hazard.

 

[runninboy]

If guns are involved it is probably risky.

Annual Bicycle fatalites run roughly half of all accidental firearm deaths, considering that hunting is considered to account for only about half the total deaths would mean bicycling & hunting have roughly equal risks of getting killed

 

[rhubroma]

QUOTE]

Never said man was innocent, we have taken too many predators besides man out of the balance like coyotes & wolves. then we introduced species to places where they were not native.(such as Pheasants which are asian no north american pheasant) and they proliferate. Which was ok a few decades ago when there were alot more hunters. Now the predators are reduced and man is hunting less. Huge flocks of Canadian Geese now present serious health hazards when they move into sports complexes and deficate for days
**** through a goose ring a bell?
Ask people on RAGBRAI who were supposed to camp out on a field that became inches deep with goose crap. Geese used to be rare in IA now they are a health hazard.[/QUOTE]

Ok, but blaming the geese is not logical here. In any event, another example of man trying to mold nature to his own liking and having it backfire.

 

[Digger]

Interview with Greg Lemond, by Paul Kimmage. Dealing with doping, sex abuse etc.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/more_sport/cycling/article2010066.ece

 

[Cloxxki]

I believe, if you add weight to AC's bike to level his VO2max with another rider, he'll win. He just uses his powers so officiently.
Does not anyone notice this, and draw a comparison with LA? Both big engines, both immediately recognized for their pedaling style.
Might there be something there that is not holding them back from dominating grand tours? Naah, we'll just sit back, and push our pedals at 80rpm max up this hill. It's how Merckx won, so it must be the way to go.

Cycling is SO backwards, that the one guy who is forward, gets to win, and be accused of doping.

Maybe Lm is on the right team, just just not very clever in his word choosing and tech understanding, it seems.

 

[Oldman]

Um Ok.... you know alot about the incident i guess, drinking and all the facts
like the purpose etc
and you say they were deer hunting?
That is wrong, as well as drinking was not involved, it was not minnesota, it was CA close to Sacramento and for the record Turkey hunting
so i guess in reality you don't know much
and i bet you don't know much about the effects of lead inside the body either
5 pellets still in the heart , 5 in the liver...


Greg competed at the highest level of the sport, Andy Hampsten & Paul Kimmage have backed up his allegations as legitimate
I tend to believe them no matter what Greg does in the off season

You're correct about the game involved during the hunt and still miss the point. I'm as skeptical as the lot of you but think that the argument focuses on science rather than radical opinion or, as several others have said: doping will kill the sport.

 

[Kennf1]

Naah, we'll just sit back, and push our pedals at 80rpm max up this hill. It's how Merckx won, so it must be the way to go.

When your lowest gear is a 42x23, you don't have much choice.

 

[boalio]

Interview with Greg Lemond, by Paul Kimmage. Dealing with doping, sex abuse etc.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/more_sport/cycling/article2010066.ece

That's an incredible and pretty upsetting interview. What upsets me the most is the fact that someone who speaks out against doping, has there life destroyed more than someone who is caught cheating.

I wonder how people deal with the internal guilt. Consoling yourself that everyone else is doing it, and its just the way, can only go so far. When you are lying in your hotel room by yourself at night. That sort of guilt must gnaw away at you. To me the guilt at treating another person, whom you considered a 'friend', would be much worse than the guilt of knowing that you cheated.

 

[Cloxxki]

When your lowest gear is a 42x23, you don't have much choice.

A professional knows what's ahead. What a surprise, a real mountain! But, I am running the same gearset as on a 3-corner crit. Help!

Every sponsor offers 27t or 28t cassettes, where the bottom 5 or 6 out of 10 are still the same as the 23t one. In some GT's, triple cranks were used (rather that than a MOUTAIN cassette, of course. None helped riders to keep their cadance up. They didn't train for it, and didn't adjust their position for it, even though races are lost more than won on hills.

Let's analyze the average cadance managed on a deciding mountain of this year's TdF, and plot them in a graph. Left AC, right the red lantern. I bet the tredn will be right-down, but I'd love to be shown wrong.
Those climbing badly IMO are cutting themselves short by not trying to be good (and smart) at it. Cancellara and Zabriskie are my favorite could-be GC winners. Indurain got up his hills just fine, at his own pace. He's a big guy.

 

[dienekes88]

Does tailwind means anything to you?

I will help you with the power calculations:

Greg Lemond ITT 1989: 420-430 Watts (5.65 W/kg)
Lance Armstrong 2004 Alpe d'Huez: 466 Watts (6.5 W/kg)
Contador - Verbier 2009: 413 W- 434 W (6.8- 7.1 W/kg)
Pantani – Alpe d’Huez 1997: 403 W (7.2 W/kg)

Here I am not taking into account the time to exhaustion which is a big factor on the power that an athlete can perform. In other words it is harder to maintain a high power for longer times. Look at the short time for the ITT for Greg Lemond. That is completely believable. Now look at the numbers on Watts/Kg that all other athletes have. Above 6 W/kg the numbers start being seriously suspicious.

Now here is a link at Greg's take on his numbers:
http://www.bikeraceinfo.com/oralhistory/lemond.html

In this link Greg also is explaining how the power decreases over time. This means that over a period of three weeks of riding in the Tour de France the riders will experience fatigue and decrease in VO2 max. Something that is not happening with the other three athletes apparently.

As a late note, this topic has been discussed in the past in this forum so that was the reason why I did not want to reply to you, but since you have been so insistent on this topic now I took the time to reply to you.

I hope this helps.

Note: here is a link on how to do the calculations and a chart on the exhaustion times for athletes. Or you can just Google the topic all you want.
http://swiss2.whosting.ch/mdetting/sports/

Aren't there several of the Garmin boys putting up way more than 6 W/kg?

The slipstream-fanboys would have you believe they're squeaky clean, and that's what their press agent would like you to believe. I want to hear LeMond's take on them.

The agenda isn't purely "clean up the sport." Otherwise LeMond would expand his criticism. Maybe it's 90% "clean up the sport" and 10% "I don't like these specific people."