LeMond I

[ultimobici]

His careers was cut short by Mottet and Hamsten. No need to go further than that.

Excuse me, did I miss something? Mottet & Hampsten? What on earth are you babbling on about

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

His careers was cut short by Mottet and Hamsten. No need to go further than that.

No need to go further than that. Right.

 

[Albatros]

You evidently haven't grasped the difference between the benefits conferred by dope pre EPO and those of the EPO era have you?

One thing that was expressly not supplied by the organisers was doping products.

I think I have.

Even Lemond.

"The Italians, somewhere in the '80s, figured out how to take small amounts to be on the legal side of it, which does help recovery and would help tremendously in a three week race.

Lemond was beating guys who were helped tremendously by the use of steroids.

The myth goes on. I guess someone told him about the benefits, obviously.


By the way, I wonder what he meant in the paragraph below. That Americans were too naive for not getting into the drug culture? That he should have doped like the rest? It just doesn't make sense compared to other much harder stances on drug taking.



"First of all, you have to understand the doping mentality. I don't think there's a rider in the peloton that prefers to take drugs. It's simply what doing to keep up with competition, and if they think everyone's getting away with it, they feel like they need to use it, too. Half of these guys haven't finished high school, have a wife and three kids at home, and if they don't perform, they won't get paid. The problem with Americans is that our ethics are sometimes a bit nave-don't get me wrong, the American ethic is really good, I like the American attitude, but it doesn't really bite into the reality of situation."

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

His careers was cut short by Mottet and Hamsten. No need to go further than that.

I'll give u the podiums and u may answer who is suspicious.

1 Indurain
2 Bugno
3 Chiapucci

1 Indurain
2 Chiapucci
3 Bugno

1 Indurain
2 Rominger
3 Jaskula [FFS!]

1 Indurain
2 Ugromov [only 33 years of age]
3 Pantani

or should we say:

1 Padilla/Conconi
2 Ferrari
3 Conconi

???

Indeed, it were Mottet et Hampsten. Keep on trolling

Last but not least:
1 Indurain/Padilla
2 Zulle/Fuentes
3 Riiis/Checcini

Kinda like the LeMond van Diemen tandem more, but that's just naive me.

 

[Benotti69]

No need to go further than that. Right.

You can see the trolling. Right?

 

[Albatros]

Excuse me, did I miss something? Mottet & Hampsten? What on earth are you babbling on about

They performed significantly better than Lemond during the EPO era. Maybe they weren't EPO clean either.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

You can see the trolling. Right?

My post was supposed to sound sarcastic.

I've been around the block a few times myself, you know?!

 

[Benotti69]

My post was supposed to sound sarcastic.

I've been around the block a few times myself, you know?!

I was echoing your sarcasm with a subtle hint too

 

[Albatros]

I'll give u the podiums and u may answer who is suspicious.

1 Indurain
2 Bugno
3 Chiapucci

1 Indurain
2 Chiapucci
3 Bugno

1 Indurain
2 Rominger
3 Jaskula [FFS!]

1 Indurain
2 Ugromov [only 33 years of age]
3 Pantani

or should we say:

1 Padilla/Conconi
2 Ferrari
3 Conconi

???

Indeed, it were Mottet et Hampsten. Keep on trolling

Last but not least:
1 Indurain/Padilla
2 Zulle/Fuentes
3 Riiis/Checcini

Kinda like the LeMond van Diemen tandem more, but that's just naive me.

Go a little bit further down. Where is Lemond in the 1991 Tour and where is Mottet?

it wouldn't matter that those 3 were not competing.

 

[ultimobici]

I think I have.

Even Lemond.

"The Italians, somewhere in the '80s, figured out how to take small amounts to be on the legal side of it, which does help recovery and would help tremendously in a three week race.

Lemond was beating guys who were helped tremendously by the use of steroids.

The myth goes on. I guess someone told him about the benefits, obviously.


By the way, I wonder what he meant in the paragraph below. That Americans were too naive for not getting into the drug culture? That he should have doped like the rest? It just doesn't make sense compared to other much harder stances on drug taking.



"First of all, you have to understand the doping mentality. I don't think there's a rider in the peloton that prefers to take drugs. It's simply what doing to keep up with competition, and if they think everyone's getting away with it, they feel like they need to use it, too. Half of these guys haven't finished high school, have a wife and three kids at home, and if they don't perform, they won't get paid. The problem with Americans is that our ethics are sometimes a bit nave-don't get me wrong, the American ethic is really good, I like the American attitude, but it doesn't really bite into the reality of situation."

You evidently haven't understood or are ignoring the massive difference EPO made compared to amphetamine, cortisone and testosterone.

Also both those quotes are meaningless without their dates & context.

It was possible to win totally clean in the 80s and very early 90s. Delion won the Maillot Blanc as well as Lombardia in 1990. He retired in 1994 age 28 as he couldn't compete.

 

[Albatros]

No need to go further than that. Right.

You can go, but if Mottet is the other "clean" rider of the 80's-90's why going any further?

 

[Darryl Webster]

This guy rocked from 1982 till 1990,i.

He "rocked" from even earlier, Junior World Road Champ in 1979 on the Argentina GP circuit , 2nd in the Individual pursuit and a bronze in the TTT.
I was there riding for GB in the TTT and its was obvious that we witnessed the dawn of one of the sports true greats.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Go a little bit further down. Where is Lemond in the 1991 Tour and where is Mottet?

it wouldn't matter that those 3 were not competing.

Go see where our good friend Mottet gained time on LeMond. Two big big break aways my friend, u don't get that at WIKI paiges. Touchdown.
By the way 1991 was the first my friend. Indu/Bug/Chia

He "rocked" from even earlier, Junior World Road Champ in 1979 on the Argentina GP circuit , 2nd in the Individual pursuit and a bronze in the TTT.
I was there riding for GB in the TTT and its was obvious that we witnessed the dawn of one of the sports true greats.

I know that now, but not back than why I was watching my first World Championship in 1982

I should have stated: he rocked cycling for me during that period.

 

[Albatros]

You evidently haven't understood or are ignoring the massive difference EPO made compared to amphetamine, cortisone and testosterone.

Also both those quotes are meaningless without their dates & context.

It was possible to win totally clean in the 80s and very early 90s. Delion won the Maillot Blanc as well as Lombardia in 1990. He retired in 1994 age 28 as he couldn't compete.

Give me facts like someone asked me earlier.

I can give dozens of quotes of ex cyclists (and very big names by the way) of the great benefits of riding doped.

This is the crux of the matter.

Doesn't anyone smell a rat when someone is saying that it is possible to win the Tour pre EPO era clean and at the same time hear numeorus accounts of top riders saying exactly the opposite?

Who do you believe? I know who I believe.

 

[Benotti69]

<babble>


Doesn't anyone smell a rat when someone is saying that it is possible to win the Tour pre EPO era clean and at the same time hear numeorus accounts of top riders saying exactly the opposite?

Who do you believe? I know who I believe.

If you are not trolling, and i believe you are, lets these numerous accounts of top riders.

 

[Albatros]

Go see where our good friend Mottet gained time on LeMond. Two big big break aways my friend, u don't get that at WIKI paiges. Touchdown.
By the way 1991 was the first my friend. Indu/Bug/ChiaI know that now, but not back than why I was watching my first World Championship in 1982

I should have stated: he rocked cycling for me during that period.

So, we shouldn't count Mottet finishing higher than Lemond cause he gained the advantage on two breaks. Should we only count the ITTs then?

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Give me facts like someone asked me earlier.

I can give dozens of quotes of ex cyclists (and very big names by the way) of the great benefits of riding doped.

This is the crux of the matter.

Doesn't anyone smell a rat when someone is saying that it is possible to win the Tour pre EPO era clean and at the same time hear numeorus accounts of top riders saying exactly the opposite?

Who do you believe? I know who I believe.

Why was LeMond warned at the 1986 Tour [did u see that one?] that he might be poisoned so Hinault would win his sixth? And still no doping authority got anything at LeMond. Guess those Frenchies were sleeping. Lol.

So, we shouldn't count Mottet finishing higher than Lemond cause he gained the advantage on two breaks. Should we only count the ITTs then?

Mottet only lost two minutes on the last TT so there is your answer.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

I was echoing your sarcasm with a subtle hint too

Well, it looks like another trip around the block for me then.

Anyone who has been around, or was around, knows that when Greg came onto first the US then world cycling scene, it was quite obvious he was on another level. Many said he was the most gifted athlete since Merckx, and had a chance to match his wins if things played out right. Unfortunately for him, they did not.

I promise to not feed the troll anymore.

 

[Altitude]

Maybe he did, but, and this is a big BUT, I am pretty sure it wasn't oxigene vector dope. Maybe a little amphetamines, maybe. A big maybe.

This guy rocked from 1982 till 1990, when his carreer was cut short by donkeys like Bugno and Indurain.

By the way, yesterday I rode for the first time in ages in this shirt:

I still kinda fit in it, I must be on oxigene vector stuff.i.

Indurain, a donkey. Ha ha ha, that is rich!

 

[Albatros]

If you are not trolling, and i believe you are, lets these numerous accounts of top riders.

I think the only one who is trolling is you, with your obsession of protecting your hero (sorry but that it is borderline maternal) .


Fausto Coppi
"those who claim [that cyclists do not take amphetamine], it's not worth talking to them about cycling"

Henri Desgrange
"You have no idea what the Tour de France is", Henri said. "It's a Calvary. Worse than that, because the road to the Cross has only 14 stations and ours has 15. We suffer from the start to the end. You want to know how we keep going? Here..." He pulled a phial from his bag. "That's cocaine, for our eyes. This is chloroform, for our gums."


Anquetil
"You would have to be an imbecile or a crook to imagine that a professional cyclist who races for 235 days a year can hold the pace without stimulants"

"For 50 years bike racers have been taking stimulants. Obviously we can do without them in a race, but then we will pedal 15 miles an hour (instead of 25). Since we are constantly asked to go faster and to make even greater efforts, we are obliged to take stimulants"

.....

Testing took time to adapt, but in 1978 Belgian rider Jean-Luc van den Broucke was found positive of steroid use, and said:

In the Tour de France, I took steroids. That is not a stimulant, just a strengthener. If I hadn't, I would have had to give up. [...] On the first rest day, before we went into the Pyrenees, I had a first hormone injection. I had another one on the second day, at the start of the last week. You can't call that medically harmful, not if it's done under a doctor's control and within reason.

There was a mass of steroids used in the Tour, everyone will admit that. How can we stay at the top otherwise? Even at Munich [at the world track championship] it was used a lot. I hope the riders will get together next season and take action. Who can ride classics and long-distance Tours the whole year through without strengtheners?[33]



Eddy Merckx, Thevenet......Hinault not wanting to pass antidoping controls.....Fignon.

Then the EPO cyclists until today.

And Lemond in the middle of all of it clean as a whistle.

 

[Darryl Webster]

Give me facts like someone asked me earlier.

I can give dozens of quotes of ex cyclists (and very big names by the way) of the great benefits of riding doped.

This is the crux of the matter.

Doesn't anyone smell a rat when someone is saying that it is possible to win the Tour pre EPO era clean and at the same time hear numeorus accounts of top riders saying exactly the opposite?

Who do you believe? I know who I believe.

I don't know what's so difficult for peeps to understand here. Endurance cycling is almost a purely aerobic sport. Very little real strength is required and very little skill. If the dope doesn't increase your oxygen capacity then it really doesn't increase your top end performance.
Hence pre oxygen vectors the only doping method that could substantially help was blood packing.
Pain killers, amphetamine etc could not increase the oxygen levels, strength steroids were largely useless.
Any drug that might help recovery had its uses but there were other ways to do that that didn't involve PED,s...saline drips for re hydration, iron, blood sugers etc.
Its not that doping didn't give any benefit at all but the order of advantage was not insurmountable being around 1..2%.
In many cases the pseudo science involved pre blood banking and EPO etc meant no genuine advantage was obtained and in some cases there's little doubt performance may have been impaired.
There was also the placebo effect to consider and studies did show that this effect was real.
In short, an extremely gifted rider could compete and Lemond, having one of the highest VO2 max,s ever recorded was most certainly very blessed were it mattered.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Indurain, a donkey. Ha ha ha, that is phucking rich!

You are right, should have compared him to our good old Bjarne R. who at least had the guts to admit he cut the carreers of talented athletes who didn't want poison in their veins short.

Indurain was a bio - rat/experiment. Better?

In short, an extremely gifted rider could compete and Lemond, having one of the highest VO2 max,s ever recorded was most certainly very blessed were it mattered.

It says enough that some riders with a high natural HTC don't compete at the highest level, they recuperate well but is has less to do with performance. When u boost your natural 43 to say 64 it is another thing off course...

 

[Albatros]

I don't know what's so difficult for peeps to understand here. Endurance cycling is almost a purely aerobic sport. Very little real strength is required and very little skill. If the dope doesn't increase your oxygen capacity then it really doesn't increase your top end performance.
Hence pre oxygen vectors the only doping method that could substantially help was blood packing.
Pain killers, amphetamine etc could not increase the oxygen levels, strength steroids were largely useless.
Any drug that might help recovery had its uses but there were other ways to do that that didn't involve PED,s...saline drips for re hydration, iron, blood sugers etc.
Its not that doping didn't give any benefit at all but the order of advantage was not insurmountable being around 1..2%.
In many cases the pseudo science involved pre blood banking and EPO etc meant no genuine advantage was obtained and in some cases there's little doubt performance may have been impaired.
There was also the placebo effect to consider and studies did show that this effect was real.
In short, an extremely gifted rider could compete and Lemond, having one of the highest VO2 max,s ever recorded was most certainly very blessed were it mattered.

That it is not certainly what I deduct from reading ex cyclist accounts. And I know that overdoing some of those drugs would have been/was detrimental, but properly used were A MUST for riders to compete. By the way, steroids are still part of the staple diet of today's cyclists and if we are to believe Lemond they help tremendously . Perhaps the use of the adjetive was to give more shine to his victories , but considering that other cyclists speak wonders about it I think his assesment was probably right.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Give me facts like someone asked me earlier.

I can give dozens of quotes of ex cyclists (and very big names by the way) of the great benefits of riding doped.

This is the crux of the matter.

Doesn't anyone smell a rat when someone is saying that it is possible to win the Tour pre EPO era clean and at the same time hear numeorus accounts of top riders saying exactly the opposite?

Who do you believe? I know who I believe.

So, where are the below riders that you quoted describing the "great benfits" of doping?

I think the only one who is trolling is you, with your obsession of protecting your hero (sorry but that it is borderline maternal) .


Fausto Coppi
"those who claim [that cyclists do not take amphetamine], it's not worth talking to them about cycling"

Henri Desgrange
"You have no idea what the Tour de France is", Henri said. "It's a Calvary. Worse than that, because the road to the Cross has only 14 stations and ours has 15. We suffer from the start to the end. You want to know how we keep going? Here..." He pulled a phial from his bag. "That's cocaine, for our eyes. This is chloroform, for our gums."


Anquetil
"You would have to be an imbecile or a crook to imagine that a professional cyclist who races for 235 days a year can hold the pace without stimulants"

"For 50 years bike racers have been taking stimulants. Obviously we can do without them in a race, but then we will pedal 15 miles an hour (instead of 25). Since we are constantly asked to go faster and to make even greater efforts, we are obliged to take stimulants"

.....

Testing took time to adapt, but in 1978 Belgian rider Jean-Luc van den Broucke was found positive of steroid use, and said:

In the Tour de France, I took steroids. That is not a stimulant, just a strengthener. If I hadn't, I would have had to give up. [...] On the first rest day, before we went into the Pyrenees, I had a first hormone injection. I had another one on the second day, at the start of the last week. You can't call that medically harmful, not if it's done under a doctor's control and within reason.

There was a mass of steroids used in the Tour, everyone will admit that. How can we stay at the top otherwise? Even at Munich [at the world track championship] it was used a lot. I hope the riders will get together next season and take action. Who can ride classics and long-distance Tours the whole year through without strengtheners?[33]



Eddy Merckx, Thevenet......Hinault not wanting to pass antidoping controls.....Fignon.

Then the EPO cyclists until today.

And Lemond in the middle of all of it clean as a whistle.

 

[Albatros]

So, where are the below riders that you quoted describing the "great benfits" of doping?

If you can not infer it, I am very sorry but I can not help.