- Mar 18, 2009
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- Mar 18, 2009
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- May 14, 2010
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You guys need to learn how to edit quotes.
But, anyway, we can't say with certainty that it's even possible to ride a three week tour competitively without doping, much less win one. We take it on faith that it's possible, but how do we know? Because there were some winners, such as Bartali, who are said to have ridden clean? Well, maybe they did, but who knows? (If any of them did, it was surely Bartali.)
In any case, HelmutRoole's argument also takes into account the culture of the sport, and the prevailing attitudes within it about doping. The counter-argument for Greg in this regard is that he is American and therefore outside that culture. (Inevitably this is seen as American exceptionalism, but that in itself doesn't make it incorrect.)
The thing is, though, when America wanted to get serious about cycling, it imported the expertise - and culture - from Europe. So the American pioneers who joined the European peloton in the 1980s, Greg among them, did so already acculturated to it.
But, anyway, we can't say with certainty that it's even possible to ride a three week tour competitively without doping, much less win one. We take it on faith that it's possible, but how do we know? Because there were some winners, such as Bartali, who are said to have ridden clean? Well, maybe they did, but who knows? (If any of them did, it was surely Bartali.)
In any case, HelmutRoole's argument also takes into account the culture of the sport, and the prevailing attitudes within it about doping. The counter-argument for Greg in this regard is that he is American and therefore outside that culture. (Inevitably this is seen as American exceptionalism, but that in itself doesn't make it incorrect.)
The thing is, though, when America wanted to get serious about cycling, it imported the expertise - and culture - from Europe. So the American pioneers who joined the European peloton in the 1980s, Greg among them, did so already acculturated to it.
- May 14, 2010
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In regard to the attitudes towards doping that prevailed in the European peloton, these two bits from Dave Molton's blog might be of interest.
- May 15, 2014
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For the record, I just don't buy the "100% dirty" theory. History has proved that even in the most corrupt environments, there are people sticking up to core values and do not surrender to conformism.
There's always been clean riders riding the Tour. Always. Maybe not a lot at times, but there always were. Just for the sake of statistics.
There's always been clean riders riding the Tour. Always. Maybe not a lot at times, but there always were. Just for the sake of statistics.
- May 14, 2010
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True. For quite some time now there has been a prevailing attitude among French teams in favor of honesty and away from doping, so this would illustrate your point.
When was the last time a French rider won the Tour de France?
Of course. (Well, maybe.) But I'm always careful to talk about GC riders, where it seems less likely. Statistically, I mean.
@NL_LeMondFans said:
True. For quite some time now there has been a prevailing attitude among French teams in favor of honesty and away from doping, so this would illustrate your point.
When was the last time a French rider won the Tour de France?
Of course. (Well, maybe.) But I'm always careful to talk about GC riders, where it seems less likely. Statistically, I mean.
- May 15, 2014
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Re: Re:
1985. But being doped did not make Virenque or Jalabert win the Tour. It takes more than that. Out of the "traditional" countries of cycling (France, Italy, Spain, Belgium, maybe Germany), only Spain kept winning on a regular basis. Italy kind of struggled. Belgium is worse than France.And of course there is the case of the 2014 Tour with Italy and France on the podium.
Agreed.
Maxiton said:
1985. But being doped did not make Virenque or Jalabert win the Tour. It takes more than that. Out of the "traditional" countries of cycling (France, Italy, Spain, Belgium, maybe Germany), only Spain kept winning on a regular basis. Italy kind of struggled. Belgium is worse than France.And of course there is the case of the 2014 Tour with Italy and France on the podium.
Maxiton said:
Agreed.
- May 14, 2010
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Armstrong's direct intervention in France in 2009 was pernicious. (See my last post in my Contador thread.) So I should have qualified my statement about the attitude of French teams being towards honesty and away from doping. I should have qualified it by saying until recently.
Contador has kept winning. But for seven years it was America (Armstrong). Then, after a brief interlude, it was UK (Sky). These represent new markets. UCI likes to direct and control in such a way that the dominant, dynastic team at the Tour opens up a new, preferably large market for them and for the cycling business. Europe is an old market, already saturated. That's why no European country has enjoyed a dynasty at the Tour in a long time.
@NL_LeMondFans said:
Armstrong's direct intervention in France in 2009 was pernicious. (See my last post in my Contador thread.) So I should have qualified my statement about the attitude of French teams being towards honesty and away from doping. I should have qualified it by saying until recently.
Contador has kept winning. But for seven years it was America (Armstrong). Then, after a brief interlude, it was UK (Sky). These represent new markets. UCI likes to direct and control in such a way that the dominant, dynastic team at the Tour opens up a new, preferably large market for them and for the cycling business. Europe is an old market, already saturated. That's why no European country has enjoyed a dynasty at the Tour in a long time.
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In theory, yes. But how, exactly ? If they were to prone a UK dominance, it would be easy to add ITT mileage and have Froome take the prize as he is the best time trialist. They didn't do it for Froome nor Wiggins. It's the riders and the Sky team who adapted to the race, it seems (to me).
Also, ASO runs the Tour, not the UCI. They seem to always be in conflict. But on this particular subject (new markets), they should have a mutual agreement, shouldn't they ?
Maxiton said:
In theory, yes. But how, exactly ? If they were to prone a UK dominance, it would be easy to add ITT mileage and have Froome take the prize as he is the best time trialist. They didn't do it for Froome nor Wiggins. It's the riders and the Sky team who adapted to the race, it seems (to me).
Also, ASO runs the Tour, not the UCI. They seem to always be in conflict. But on this particular subject (new markets), they should have a mutual agreement, shouldn't they ?
- May 14, 2010
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Sometimes ASO does tailor its courses to favor a certain rider or team. But if they did it too much, people would call them out on it. In fact, they already do get called out on it when they do it.
The ways in which UCI attempts to orchestrate the winner is the whole point of my Contador thread. In the Armstrong era they favored his team, covered up his positives, and popped his rivals for doping.
On new markets ASO and UCI probably do have a common interest, but that doesn't mean their conflicts don't often get in the way of this shared interest.
@NL_LeMondFans said:
Sometimes ASO does tailor its courses to favor a certain rider or team. But if they did it too much, people would call them out on it. In fact, they already do get called out on it when they do it.
The ways in which UCI attempts to orchestrate the winner is the whole point of my Contador thread. In the Armstrong era they favored his team, covered up his positives, and popped his rivals for doping.
On new markets ASO and UCI probably do have a common interest, but that doesn't mean their conflicts don't often get in the way of this shared interest.
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Surely, this year's Tour de France was made so that aggressive french riders can shine, even if not for the GC win.
@redflanders, is there a chance you can show us a snippet from that Borysewicz book, from the part where he talks about Lemond?
Would appreciate it, even if it's just a sentence.
on a side, would also like to see that Willy Voet quote, where he allegedly vouches for Lemond. Anybody with a link to that? Have looked for it in the thread but couldnt find it.
Would appreciate it, even if it's just a sentence.
on a side, would also like to see that Willy Voet quote, where he allegedly vouches for Lemond. Anybody with a link to that? Have looked for it in the thread but couldnt find it.
- Jul 4, 2009
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....realize this isn't the perfect place for this but its a funny little slip of "the curtain".... it speaks of how something is presented ( drug-free and wonderful ) and yet the real reality is just behind a very thin curtain is somewhat different and that curtain gets inadvertently lifted every once in a while....I mean you can't operate perfectly in two narratives based on the same reality and not have some accidental leakage every once in a while...
....and....
....from... http://www.foxsports.com/nfl/story/derrick-henry-puts-on-von-miller-esque-performance-at-combine-022616
...just a funny story from another sports culture that is very much in the spotlight, is as drug addled as any, yet can be polished and shined up and presented as pure wonderful heroic sport.....
Cheers
....and....
....from... http://www.foxsports.com/nfl/story/derrick-henry-puts-on-von-miller-esque-performance-at-combine-022616
...just a funny story from another sports culture that is very much in the spotlight, is as drug addled as any, yet can be polished and shined up and presented as pure wonderful heroic sport.....
Cheers
- May 17, 2013
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Yep...ASO and UCI don't always share the same agenda. I also agree with the point about new markets, UCI has been singing that tune for quite some time, including as it relates to the race calendar. Armstrong was the best thing that could have happened, now Sky. Growth...
On the bad side, only Spain has been able to remain very competitive
, and Italy to a much lesser extend. So in recent years, it seems like the pressure to survive has made some reconsider their anti-doping philosophy: for example, AG2R, a French team has had a few cases of doping. I don't think that the French were ALL clean before, and I think that they're a lot less clean now.
I don't know what the future holds and I want to stay optimistic. Not easy...
And just to reiterate my opinion about LeMond, a point that has been made by others many times: if Armstrong dogs, with all the inside info, couldn't dig dirt on GL, it is extremely unlikely that there was dirt. It would have been exposed. Armstrong would have destroyed him. No matter what collateral damage would have occurred.
@NL_LeMondFans said:
Yep...ASO and UCI don't always share the same agenda. I also agree with the point about new markets, UCI has been singing that tune for quite some time, including as it relates to the race calendar. Armstrong was the best thing that could have happened, now Sky. Growth...
On the bad side, only Spain has been able to remain very competitive
, and Italy to a much lesser extend. So in recent years, it seems like the pressure to survive has made some reconsider their anti-doping philosophy: for example, AG2R, a French team has had a few cases of doping. I don't think that the French were ALL clean before, and I think that they're a lot less clean now.I don't know what the future holds and I want to stay optimistic. Not easy...
And just to reiterate my opinion about LeMond, a point that has been made by others many times: if Armstrong dogs, with all the inside info, couldn't dig dirt on GL, it is extremely unlikely that there was dirt. It would have been exposed. Armstrong would have destroyed him. No matter what collateral damage would have occurred.
Re: Re:
Also, if Lance does have dirt, why, when, and where would you think he would leak it?
Who'd be interested in a random unconfirmed 'Lemond doped' rumor?
Assume for a minute that Lemond did dope, is there a chance that Lance would nonetheless haven't found anything tangible? What kind of tangible evidence could he have gotten hold of?
In your view, what's the difference between Greg and riders like Wiggins, Cancellara, Indurain, and Evans, to name just a few, in terms of quality and quantity of 'dirt'?Tonton said:
Also, if Lance does have dirt, why, when, and where would you think he would leak it?
Who'd be interested in a random unconfirmed 'Lemond doped' rumor?
Assume for a minute that Lemond did dope, is there a chance that Lance would nonetheless haven't found anything tangible? What kind of tangible evidence could he have gotten hold of?
- May 14, 2010
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Look up the stats on the increase in average size/weight/height of NFL players between 1967 and today, and you'll know why NFL isn't a signatory to WADA.
And I'm sure when Armstrong had his meetings with Sarkozy and ASO in 2009, he made exactly this point.
Look, NFL, hockey, tennis, golf, soccer - all hugely successful, popular, money making sports. Why? Because they address doping in the right way [i.e. they don't address it at all].
blutto said:
Look up the stats on the increase in average size/weight/height of NFL players between 1967 and today, and you'll know why NFL isn't a signatory to WADA.
And I'm sure when Armstrong had his meetings with Sarkozy and ASO in 2009, he made exactly this point.
Look, NFL, hockey, tennis, golf, soccer - all hugely successful, popular, money making sports. Why? Because they address doping in the right way [i.e. they don't address it at all].
- Mar 13, 2009
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nah, there was a Tour scripted and choreographed from Wigans. And the Armstrong comeback Tour was obviously crafted for Astana and Armstrong, but Armstrong could not manage to do anything, and the ASO would have expected his time out being a penalty he could not surpass, so it would not rigged.
unlike the French anti-doping testing and the shower before his urine sampling...
And the second Froome repeat, sry, the TdF after dawg's first win, the Nibali win, well, the public were on to the ASO putting up routes that suited particular riders, so like a Geame-theory influence, the public were not gonna be hoodwinked again, and the ASO's hands were tied, the cycling public were full of rigged routes, so their reply was the opposite, they threw in the cobbles to fukc with Froome /alliterationz
and that is why, the last two TdFs, I have developed a new respect for Nibali and Froome and how they took the race by the scruff of its neck.
Doping or no doping, Froome and Nibali were imperious in the preceding two Tours, and deserved their wins.
Just like Tommeke was so overcome with joy when Peter Sagan won the worlds last year.
@NL_LeMondFans said:
nah, there was a Tour scripted and choreographed from Wigans. And the Armstrong comeback Tour was obviously crafted for Astana and Armstrong, but Armstrong could not manage to do anything, and the ASO would have expected his time out being a penalty he could not surpass, so it would not rigged.
unlike the French anti-doping testing and the shower before his urine sampling...
And the second Froome repeat, sry, the TdF after dawg's first win, the Nibali win, well, the public were on to the ASO putting up routes that suited particular riders, so like a Geame-theory influence, the public were not gonna be hoodwinked again, and the ASO's hands were tied, the cycling public were full of rigged routes, so their reply was the opposite, they threw in the cobbles to fukc with Froome /alliterationz
and that is why, the last two TdFs, I have developed a new respect for Nibali and Froome and how they took the race by the scruff of its neck.
Doping or no doping, Froome and Nibali were imperious in the preceding two Tours, and deserved their wins.
Just like Tommeke was so overcome with joy when Peter Sagan won the worlds last year.
- Mar 13, 2009
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Re: Re:
well, the motors have their benefits negated* on the cobbles,
*to a degree,
It is a question I may have to ponder, but it also may be a question I cannot answer, cycling has always been gamed, and this is just another extrapolation, and if Spartacus and Matti Breschel (engaged the motor, if)... then I have a cognitive dissonance, one part begrudging respect about their brazen heist, and other belief they have engaged in a ruination of the sport, or been participants in the ruination if not the outright responsible party
if they did use motors, it was a brilliant heist. on another level to the van dreschers parakeets cyclocross smuggling, but respect the parkeet smuggling nonetheless.
parakeets, whats not to like?
Maxiton said:
well, the motors have their benefits negated* on the cobbles,
*to a degree,
It is a question I may have to ponder, but it also may be a question I cannot answer, cycling has always been gamed, and this is just another extrapolation, and if Spartacus and Matti Breschel (engaged the motor, if)... then I have a cognitive dissonance, one part begrudging respect about their brazen heist, and other belief they have engaged in a ruination of the sport, or been participants in the ruination if not the outright responsible party
if they did use motors, it was a brilliant heist. on another level to the van dreschers parakeets cyclocross smuggling, but respect the parkeet smuggling nonetheless.
parakeets, whats not to like?
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