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LeMond III

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Re: Re:

gillan1969 said:
we have had threads started to expressly build a case for far earlier peloton adoption of epo, widespread blood doping in the peloton throughout the 80s
To just clarify something here: the blood doping thread I started, the one seeking info on blood doping's early years, was not created to expressly build a case for far earlier blood doping in the peloton (though I readily and sadly accept that some have sought to hijack it to prove that hypothesis). While I believe that blood transfusion were more widespread in the 1980s that the historical record currently suggests, I would accept that they were still somewhat limited: key riders in key teams. It is unfortunate that we cannot talk about such things as adults without seeing the conversation taken over and turned into something resembling Reddit at its worst.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Van Diemen worked for/with Rabo and with long distance ice-skaters straight through / during the height of the EPO era.
In an interview from 1997 he's telling about how he's exchanging knowledge with Conconi and Ferrari ffs.
And tells the reporter please not to mention the word 'doping'.
Worked closely with Vergouwen, a campaigner for legalizing EPO.
Was and is a fan of altitude training.
Published and worked together with Asker "Haile Gebreselassie" Jeukendrup.
Coached Ryder Hesjedal to a Giro victory.

In sum, I hope Lemond's defense is not dependent on making Van Diemen look good. Because objectively this is a shady guy.

That said, I do agree that Lemond's connection with Van Diemen is probably one of Lemond's least troublesome connections.
So let's not loose sight of the bigger picture. It's more about the sumtotal of shady figures Lemond worked with.
Bellocque, De Cauwer, Ed Burke, Fritz Hagerman, Eddie Borysewicz, Vanmol, Freddy Sergeant, Paul Nijs.
All of them directly linked to doping, ranging from steroids (Hagerman, Bellocque) to hormone therapy (Bellocque) to amphetamines (Nijs), to blood doping (Eddie B., Ed Burke) to EPO (Vanmol and quite likely Eddie B.) to random drug rings (De Cauwer) and pot belge (Sergeant).
 
Re:

Tienus said:
Interesting you never addressed my point about Antoine Vayer who worked in the same field as Van Diemen.
I did not reply to this as I fail to see the relevance of Vayer in this case.

I am also not sure why Van Diemem bragging about the success of Rabo U-23 team as notworthy. They were successful and afaik, there has been no assocation of doping with that team. Did Dekker mention anything about Rabo U-23, because now it seems as though everyone is out to cover for Van Diemen.

Dekker is also covering Frans Maassen who was working with him and van Diemen in the U-23. Dekker won the Dutch national elite championship ITT against known dopers at the age of 19, he repeated that result a year later.

Also, what is the context for the Marianne Vos 6.6 statement, what time frame was he talking about as I am pretty sure most average pros could put out that for short periods of time. A top female doing the same is really not that suspicious. That is not at all similar to someone putting out high watts over a long period of time like Horner did at age 40. Are you comparing apples with apples here? More context needed.

According to van Diemen in the interview:
With her numbers she would be one of the best climbers in the men pro peloton.

So i guess that she can sustain that 6,63 w/kg for a while. Her weight is also mentioned as 53kg so he is talking about an output of 351 watt which obviously is nowhere near her max.

If you fail to see the relevance of Antoine Vayer, then I dont know what to say. You are trying to build a case against Van Diemen on guilt by association. Antoine Vayer who is a similar trainer to Van Diemen is widely regarded as a big proponent of clean cycling yet he worked at Festina during the worst ero of EPO. He also was coach to Jean Christophe Peraud who had some very impressive results at Le Tour. Using your guilt by association line, Vayer would be one of the shadiest characters out there.

The fields in those Dutch TTs hardly scream high class now, Russell Van Hout, 4th in 04 :eek: BTW, who are the known dopers? Erik Dekker? Considering T.Dekker was already one of the top Junior and U-23 TT riders in the Worlds, those results do not smack of outrageous performance when you see who he was up against.

You are now guessing how long Vos can sustain those watts? As the video is in Dutch, I cannot really comment on what Van Diemen says re Vos being a good climber. How does it make him more guilty??
 
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Re: Re:

fmk_RoI said:
sniper said:
exposed but unrepentant blood doper Eddie B. (the "Father of American doping" according to some, and like a "father" to Greg Lemond, according to...Greg Lemond)
According to whom is Eddie Borysewicz the father of American doping? You, mostly, no?
According to Andy Bohlman, a Colorado Springs race director who was in charge of drug testing for the U.S. Cycling Federation from 1984 to 1991.
http://gazette.com/doping-questions-remain-of-springs-based-armstrong-coach/article/149946
But it's a figure of speech, obviously.
Nobody in their right state of mind would really claim Eddie pioneered doping in the US.
Perhaps on a rainy day I'd go with Inga Thompson's account of Eddie as "the father of the American cycling doping". http://www.velonews.com/2014/06/news/perspectives-doping-pro-cycling-inga-thompson_333513
But even that is giving him way too much credit.
For instance, Carl Leusenkamp, who worked with Lemond in 1980, got popped for amphetamines already in the early 70s. Eddie wasn't even around at the time.
 
Re:

sniper said:
Van Diemen worked for/with Rabo and with long distance ice-skaters straight through / during the height of the EPO era.
In an interview from 1997 he's telling about how he's exchanging knowledge with Conconi and Ferrari ffs.
And tells the reporter please not to mention the word 'doping'.
Worked closely with Vergouwen, a campaigner for legalizing EPO.
Was and is a fan of altitude training.
Published and worked together with Asker "Haile Gebreselassie" Jeukendrup.
Coached Ryder Hesjedal to a Giro victory.

In sum, I hope Lemond's defense is not dependent on making Van Diemen look good. Because objectively this is a shady guy.

That said, I do agree that Lemond's connection with Van Diemen is probably one of Lemond's least troublesome connections.
So let's not loose sight of the bigger picture. It's more about the sumtotal of shady figures Lemond worked with.
Bellocque, De Cauwer, Ed Burke, Fritz Hagerman, Eddie Borysewicz, Vanmol, Freddy Sergeant, Paul Nijs.
All of them directly linked to doping, ranging from steroids (Hagerman, Bellocque) to hormone therapy (Bellocque) to amphetamines (Nijs), to blood doping (Eddie B., Ed Burke) to EPO (Vanmol and quite likely Eddie B.) to random drug rings (De Cauwer) and pot belge (Sergeant).
The bolded is really just more blatant misinformation. Put a name with a drug and call it doping and label the person shady. People who read will not get the back story, but rather the agenda of one poster. Post the evidence that Hagerman is connected to doping athletes in any way or retract the statement. I echo what others have said that what is happening in this thread is pretty obviously against forum rules.
 
Re: Re:

sniper said:
fmk_RoI said:
sniper said:
exposed but unrepentant blood doper Eddie B. (the "Father of American doping" according to some, and like a "father" to Greg Lemond, according to...Greg Lemond)
According to whom is Eddie Borysewicz the father of American doping? You, mostly, no?
According to Andy Bohlman, a Colorado Springs race director who was in charge of drug testing for the U.S. Cycling Federation from 1984 to 1991.
http://gazette.com/doping-questions-remain-of-springs-based-armstrong-coach/article/149946
But it's a figure of speech, obviously.
Nobody in their right state of mind would really claim Eddie pioneered doping in the US.
Perhaps on a rainy day I'd go with Inga Thompson's account of Eddie as "the father of the American cycling doping". http://www.velonews.com/2014/06/news/perspectives-doping-pro-cycling-inga-thompson_333513
But even that is giving him way too much credit.
For instance, Carl Leusenkamp, who worked with Lemond in 1980, got popped for amphetamines already in the early 70s. Eddie wasn't even around at the time.

A promising young athlete from Florida, Carmichael was named to the U.S. Junior World Championship team in 1978. In the early 1980s he came under the guidance of a Polish coach named Edward Borysewicz, better known as “Eddie B.,” who Bohlman calls “The father of American doping,” saying he brought Eastern Bloc tactics to the relatively clean sport of cycling in America.
 
I am very surprised the mods have yet to act here. There are some really amazing posts in here defending GL.
Red Flanders, PMC, and a few others provide links combined real knowledge to further the discussion in a very articulate manner.
Blutto's and Sniper's posts(mostly Sniper's) are amazing for their lack of clarity and cohesion plus they're wrapped up in gossip and false info with a wink afterwards. On top of it all they don't address any of questions. It's trolling now.
I need the posters help to define how shady I am due to my relationships and degrees of separation with certain folk . I've never been arrested, never doped to win a race(of which I've done plenty of times).
-My father was a lawyer. He saved a lot of bad guys from going to the can- Lot's of possible connections there
- My father had a feud with a judge. The judge was assassinated by Woody Harelson's father
- My next door neighbor(whom I was close with his children growing up) owned an electric company- He was arrested and convicted of being the biggest cocaine dealer in the southwest
-My grandfather was a OBGYN who also was the Denver Bronco's Dr. in the late 60's
-My Aunt is a mechanical engineer
-My other Aunt used to run the EPA under Reagan (tons of unscrupulous connections there)
-My house was a stone's throw from Mexico(easy access to more drugs)

So using Sniper's amazing logic, not only do I have access to mechanical doping, I have connections to blood doping(MD grandfather), drug dealers, politicos, federal judges.
Can anybody out there help me make more "Sniper like" connections to trash me? It'd be fun!
 
Okay, this is getting out of hand. (again)

Personally, I do not and will not research everything that's being said about Greg Lemond and the people that surround his cycling career. I will not be the judge that decides what is evidence, or proof and what is not because I simply do not have the time to spend researching who is right and who is wrong.

I'm locking this thread and will lock any other thread that discusses the Lemond doping topic to give everyone time to get their facts and figures sorted. After a little time, I'll reopen this thread on the condition that what's being posted is backed up by facts, links, proof, evidence and anything else that can corroborate any statements posted in this thread.

Thank you for your patience.

:)
 
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