Re: Re:
Ref Bungo; how about his 7th in the 90 Tour...continuation of use after the Giro? On Chiappucci; are you referring to the 90 Tour, and not the 91? In the 90 Tour, he finished 2nd just a few minutes behind LeMond. Looking at his GT results from a year earlier, he goes 46th at 89 Giro and 81st at the Tour, and then the gigantic jump to 2nd at the 90 edition....practically an overnight sensation. Could he have been one of the very first riders to use and receive a substantial performance boost from EPO?
Also, looking at the 1990 Tour top 10 results below (Wikipedia), how many riders in that group do you think may have been experimenting with EPO? As I mentioned, Chiappucci had that big leap from 89. And Indurain appears in 10th, up from 17th in 89 and 47th in 88 (is he far more suspicious in his dynasty years?).
Final general classification (1–10)[1]
Rank Rider Team Time
1 Greg LeMond (USA) A yellow jersey. Z–Tomasso 90h 43' 20"
2 Claudio Chiappucci (ITA) Carrera Jeans–Vagabond + 2' 16"
3 Erik Breukink (NED) PDM–Concorde + 2' 29"
4 Pedro Delgado (ESP) Banesto + 5' 01"
5 Marino Lejarreta (ESP) ONCE + 5' 05"
6 Eduardo Chozas (ESP) ONCE + 9' 14"
7 Gianni Bugno (ITA) Chateau d'Ax–Salotti + 9' 39"
8 Raúl Alcalá (MEX) PDM–Concorde + 11' 14"
9 Claude Criquielion (BEL) Lotto–Superclub + 12' 04"
10 Miguel Indurain (ESP) Banesto + 12' 47"
I'm curious with the initial use/experimentation of EPO in the earlier 90s: Would riders have initially self-medicated or was medically-supervised use of the drug started with first usage? (for example, did Concini start working with some riders as earlier as 1990?). In the case of medically-supervised administration, would the doctors have been conservative with Hct levels, first seeing how that works out in competition, or was Hct taken to polycthemia levels (>55%) during the build-up period and up through competition? And in the case of self-administration, would riders just take risks boosting to polycthemia levels, once realizing how effective EPO was with other riders?
Interesting time period with EPO...the start of the "game-changer" in professional cycling.
Very informative info.@NL_LeMondFans said:sniper said:I'm just fascinated by the believe, in the absence of evidence, that Greg is clean.
You know it's impossible to prove a negative. In the absence of proof of negative and positive, it's up to anyone's opinion, I guess.
sniper said:Me and a few others started posting some things up that suggest Lemond is no different from other GT winners, and from that point onwards we faced a whole serious of bogus counterarguments which have kept this thread going and going. The EPO rumor being "the words of a man who's been dead for 20 years" is a nice case in point.
I'm afraid in this discussion there has been a lot bogus arguments from all sides.
sniper said:And please remember why this thread was bumped a few days ago in the first place: because evidence surfaced that people were on EPO already in 1989.
One of Lemond's fiercest defenders, Race Radio, had previously claimed the view of riders being on EPO in 1989 was "revisionist history".
I think that deserved to be corrected, don't you? (honest question)
I have a different perspective, I think, because I came into this discussion very late in the game. It seems that some people on these boards have a strong relationship and history. Agendas, manipulations occurred over time and I think it explains the animosity in some posts and the will (for some people) to get a revenge or "right back at you". I can't really judge since I wasn't around when the drama occurred but from where I stand it looks silly and even a bit immature. But then again I've seen this on other (non cycling) boards and know that forums are sometimes flamed with passion. Which is a good thing if it stays under control.
To the bolded : I didn't follow the whole "EPO in 1989" thing too closely but if true it's a fair point.
sniper said:Speaking of which, it's funny how the same people who are constantly preaching me about "facts" and "lies" and "agendas", weren't in the least bothered by Race Radio's misinformation.
I just met Race Radio once on a bike sportive and he was a super nice guy. Accusing him of "misinformation" seems harsh because, as you pointed out it would imply a desire from him to hide or cover something. I just think he is convinced about what he says. Maybe he's wrong. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you're wrong. Just my opinion.
sniper said:Let me try to get this back on topic with a serious question.
If Mathieu - the Lantern Rouge - and Jacobs were on EPO already in 1989, how many EPO-fueled riders do you think Lemond had to beat in 1990?
Again, from my perspective it took a while before EPO became widespread and truly efficient because dopers didn't figure out how to use it until after a few trials. Are Mathieu and Jacobs real names ? I don't know them.
In my eyes the first EPO ride from a high profile rider is Bugno's 1990 Giro. Ironically Mottet was second that year. Then the 1-2 spots at the 1990 worlds by Dhaenens and De Wolf... In 1991 all hell breaks loose with Chiapucci at the Tour, Chioccioli at the Giro, Mauri at the Vuelta. All frauds. And it was just the start. "Mig-Hell" as you like to remind me, benefited from this but, contrary to those frauds he was a very strong rider from the get go.
To answer your question : Bugno was probably on it but didn't use it as well as in the Giro, Chiappucci I'd say not yet or, more likely, only at the end of the Tour, which would explain his attack on the Luz Ardiden stage.
Ref Bungo; how about his 7th in the 90 Tour...continuation of use after the Giro? On Chiappucci; are you referring to the 90 Tour, and not the 91? In the 90 Tour, he finished 2nd just a few minutes behind LeMond. Looking at his GT results from a year earlier, he goes 46th at 89 Giro and 81st at the Tour, and then the gigantic jump to 2nd at the 90 edition....practically an overnight sensation. Could he have been one of the very first riders to use and receive a substantial performance boost from EPO?
Also, looking at the 1990 Tour top 10 results below (Wikipedia), how many riders in that group do you think may have been experimenting with EPO? As I mentioned, Chiappucci had that big leap from 89. And Indurain appears in 10th, up from 17th in 89 and 47th in 88 (is he far more suspicious in his dynasty years?).
Final general classification (1–10)[1]
Rank Rider Team Time
1 Greg LeMond (USA) A yellow jersey. Z–Tomasso 90h 43' 20"
2 Claudio Chiappucci (ITA) Carrera Jeans–Vagabond + 2' 16"
3 Erik Breukink (NED) PDM–Concorde + 2' 29"
4 Pedro Delgado (ESP) Banesto + 5' 01"
5 Marino Lejarreta (ESP) ONCE + 5' 05"
6 Eduardo Chozas (ESP) ONCE + 9' 14"
7 Gianni Bugno (ITA) Chateau d'Ax–Salotti + 9' 39"
8 Raúl Alcalá (MEX) PDM–Concorde + 11' 14"
9 Claude Criquielion (BEL) Lotto–Superclub + 12' 04"
10 Miguel Indurain (ESP) Banesto + 12' 47"
I'm curious with the initial use/experimentation of EPO in the earlier 90s: Would riders have initially self-medicated or was medically-supervised use of the drug started with first usage? (for example, did Concini start working with some riders as earlier as 1990?). In the case of medically-supervised administration, would the doctors have been conservative with Hct levels, first seeing how that works out in competition, or was Hct taken to polycthemia levels (>55%) during the build-up period and up through competition? And in the case of self-administration, would riders just take risks boosting to polycthemia levels, once realizing how effective EPO was with other riders?
Interesting time period with EPO...the start of the "game-changer" in professional cycling.