LeMond: Ullrich is the best rider of his generation, he would have won every Tour

[blackcat]

and maybe those academies did not teach arithmetic so he could not add two and two together
Maybe. Maybe it is just Dave

 

[Neworld]

Anything is possible, right?

Like Jan could have been the only child athlete selected for a 14.25 school, aka a doping academy, that wasn't doped.

Maybe...

And, he could have been the only child athlete selected for one of those acadamies that wasn't doped and then who also reached such extraordinary heights.

Maybe...

Even though he doped much, much later, maybe he didn't dope at all until then?

Maybe...

And, maybe there is no reason that he was one of two former E German athletes cited in that 2002 article about the former Stasi program. Maybe there was no connection, whatsoever.

Maybe...

Maybe the admission about amphetamines at that time (2002), was also just out of the blue and completely unconnected with any prior, ongoing or future doping.

Maybe...

Then again. Maybe it is just me, but I would find it far easier to believe that he was the best cyclist of his generation, given how much doping made racehorses out of donkeys, than believe Ullrich wasn't being doped when he attended an East German doping school.

Maybe it is just me. Maybe.

Dave.

Dave,

I may not have the sweeping, black and white, dogmatic absolute beliefs about JUs exposure to doping that you hold, but I do agree with you he was a seasoned doper. There is strong evidence that for some reason (fear of testing positive...) he doped less than others for a period of time in his pro career, and, many clean and doped cyclists think he was gifted. I have stated as an ancillary question..."why didn't other stasi profiled EG riders become selected into GT positions as they surely doped like JU no? Maybe it was because they were not as good. You don't really think JU was average do you?

Another perspective ..."that it is highly likely that JU was exposed to doping sometime before he turned pro given his exposure to EG methods".

But, are you in a learned position to discuss:
1. Potential long-term or short-term gains of the unknown program that JU may have been on?
2. Does having an unknown doping program before age 16, between 16-20...have a positive impact on future doped or clean athletic performances?
3. Do you have information about paediatric exercise physiology, and its future impact on muscle and mitochondrial development, wrt doping that we are unaware of?

As for the 2002 citation linking JU and another athlete to the Stasi...I am unaware of that info but would love to read it.

 

[D-Queued]

Dave,

I may not have the sweeping, black and white, dogmatic absolute beliefs about JUs exposure to doping that you hold, but I do agree with you he was a seasoned doper. There is strong evidence that for some reason (fear of testing positive...) he doped less than others for a period of time in his pro career, and, many clean and doped cyclists think he was gifted. I have stated as an ancillary question..."why didn't other stasi profiled EG riders become selected into GT positions as they surely doped like JU no? Maybe it was because they were not as good. You don't really think JU was average do you?

Another perspective ..."that it is highly likely that JU was exposed to doping sometime before he turned pro given his exposure to EG methods".

But, are you in a learned position to discuss:
1. Potential long-term or short-term gains of the unknown program that JU may have been on?
2. Does having an unknown doping program before age 16, between 16-20...have a positive impact on future doped or clean athletic performances?
3. Do you have information about paediatric exercise physiology, and its future impact on muscle and mitochondrial development, wrt doping that we are unaware of?

As for the 2002 citation linking JU and another athlete to the Stasi...I am unaware of that info but would love to read it.

First, wrt to other comments (e.g. Bavarianrider) that the 14.25 resources might not have been invested into a cyclist, like JU, because cycling isn't swimming, consider this:

Not following policy in the former East Germany was SERIOUS.

If someone put JU into a doping academy, then wtf would they have been doing wasting space on him if they weren't fully committed to having him on the program? This was a program monitored by the Stasi fercrissakes.

That someone, or those someones who were overlooking Jan's development would have elected to waste space on him, but for some reason not follow Stasi policy, is absurd.

It is a fallacious argument that he was effectively alone in not receiving his vitamins.

On #1 and #2, the evidence is there from the existence of the Stasi program and the success of its participants.

On #2 and #3, yes, there is evidence that natural genetic aerobic gifts can be enhanced during the mid to late teens. I am sure that this has been discussed previously here and anticipate that you are likely aware of this (i.e. I am too lazy to search right now).

Now, of course JU was talented. That is why he would have been selected in the first place.

We come back, however, to the basic challenge of separating talent from doped enhancement.

It cannot be done.

We can be pretty sure he wasn't a donkey, and JU likely didn't come fourth in any swim meet when he was 13 years old. How talented was he naturally? Who knows.

Dave.

 

[Neworld]

First, wrt to other comments (e.g. Bavarianrider) that the 14.25 resources might not have been invested into a cyclist, like JU, because cycling isn't swimming, consider this:

Not following policy in the former East Germany was SERIOUS.

If someone put JU into a doping academy, then wtf would they have been doing wasting space on him if they weren't fully committed to having him on the program? This was a program monitored by the Stasi fercrissakes.

That someone, or those someones who were overlooking Jan's development would have elected to waste space on him, but for some reason not follow Stasi policy, is absurd.

It is a fallacious argument that he was effectively alone in not receiving his vitamins.

On #1 and #2, the evidence is there from the existence of the Stasi program and the success of its participants.

On #2 and #3, yes, there is evidence that natural genetic aerobic gifts can be enhanced during the mid to late teens. I am sure that this has been discussed previously here and anticipate that you are likely aware of this (i.e. I am too lazy to search right now).

Now, of course JU was talented. That is why he would have been selected in the first place. ... How talented was he naturally? Who knows.

Dave.

I agree with everything you said.

Except for the impact of T, GH, T and GH on short-term and long-term athletic success. The LT gains are not known. Hopefully we will never know because if some mad scientist re-opens, or further exploits, those vector pathways ... it will be ugly.

 

[BullsFan22]

First, wrt to other comments (e.g. Bavarianrider) that the 14.25 resources might not have been invested into a cyclist, like JU, because cycling isn't swimming, consider this:

Not following policy in the former East Germany was SERIOUS.

If someone put JU into a doping academy, then wtf would they have been doing wasting space on him if they weren't fully committed to having him on the program? This was a program monitored by the Stasi fercrissakes.

That someone, or those someones who were overlooking Jan's development would have elected to waste space on him, but for some reason not follow Stasi policy, is absurd.

It is a fallacious argument that he was effectively alone in not receiving his vitamins.

On #1 and #2, the evidence is there from the existence of the Stasi program and the success of its participants.

On #2 and #3, yes, there is evidence that natural genetic aerobic gifts can be enhanced during the mid to late teens. I am sure that this has been discussed previously here and anticipate that you are likely aware of this (i.e. I am too lazy to search right now).

Now, of course JU was talented. That is why he would have been selected in the first place.

We come back, however, to the basic challenge of separating talent from doped enhancement.

It cannot be done.

We can be pretty sure he wasn't a donkey, and JU likely didn't come fourth in any swim meet when he was 13 years old. How talented was he naturally? Who knows.

Dave.

"Not following policy in the former East Germany was SERIOUS." Now, how do you know that? You lived there at the time, or your friends were originally from East Germany or what?

 

[D-Queued]

"Not following policy in the former East Germany was SERIOUS." Now, how do you know that? You lived there at the time, or your friends were originally from East Germany or what?

I suspect you will find that this is fairly well documented.

And, yes, I do have friends from the former E Germany. And, for trivia bonus points, these friends include the person who had the most number of patents granted by the East German patent office.

Dave.

 

[Jack (6 ch)]

"Not following policy in the former East Germany was SERIOUS." Now, how do you know that? You lived there at the time, or your friends were originally from East Germany or what?

I think it's more reasonable to ask: why do you doubt it?








Hungary 1990-1992. In case you wondered.

 

[Bavarianrider]

Again, cycling has never been a priority in doping programms of the GDR. Much less for 15 year old boys. respources were limited in the GDr and they were carefully used where they promised the most benefits. Once the system collpased the resources were even limited a lot more and surely a cycling boy like Ullrich wasn't of importance at all. While some top programms were continued, does it seem likely that this wa strue for 15-16 year old cycling boys? You decide. Also, if the gDR remained doping heaven, why would Ullrich have left for Hamburg right after the reunification?

 

[thehog]

Again, cycling has never been a priority in doping programms of the GDR. Much less for 15 year old boys. respources were limited in the GDr and they were carefully used where they promised the most benefits. Once the system collpased the resources were even limited a lot more and surely a cycling boy like Ullrich wasn't of importance at all. While some top programms were continued, does it seem likely that this wa strue for 15-16 year old cycling boys? You decide. Also, if the gDR remained doping heaven, why would Ullrich have left for Hamburg right after the reunification?

Similar to Pantani. Pantani was riding 150-180km training rides when he was 16. He went doing that on EPO. It's just that he was a phenomenal bike rider. Ullrich was the same.

 

[D-Queued]

Again, cycling has never been a priority in doping programms of the GDR. Much less for 15 year old boys. respources were limited in the GDr and they were carefully used where they promised the most benefits. Once the system collpased the resources were even limited a lot more and surely a cycling boy like Ullrich wasn't of importance at all. While some top programms were continued, does it seem likely that this wa strue for 15-16 year old cycling boys? You decide. Also, if the gDR remained doping heaven, why would Ullrich have left for Hamburg right after the reunification?

Why did they select him for a doping academy?

Are you saying that the GDR would waste precious space in one of these important and highly selective factories?

Not a very efficient use of resources. Somebody should have answered to the Stasi for that.

Sorry, but your arguments are specious.

Dave.

 

[BullsFan22]

Why did they select him for a doping academy?

Are you saying that the GDR would waste precious space in one of these important and highly selective factories?

Not a very efficient use of resources. Somebody should have answered to the Stasi for that.

Sorry, but your arguments are specious.

Dave.

Dave, I think I know who you are, but that's beside the point. You sure know a lot for actually not knowing what went on, in details. I have no doubt about doping in East Germany, but all these fear tactics are a bit overblown, IMO. Anyway, now that we know that West Germany doped just as much as the east, or at least it was significant to the point that their football teams, biathlon teams, handball teams, cyclists, swimmers (Mark Warnecke, for example) all benefited in the 70's, 80's and once Germany was unified, it all clicked together.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/09/s...n-sports-doping-in-1970s-study-says.html?_r=0

 

[Granville57]

Dave, I think I know who you are, but that's beside the point.

Yeah, very much besides the point, so I'm not sure what you hope to accomplish by even introducing that into the conversation.

You sure know a lot for actually not knowing what went on, in details. I have no doubt about doping in East Germany, but all these fear tactics are a bit overblown, IMO.

What fear tactics?

Doping exists on every level of probably every sport around the world to one degree or another. How does any of that negate what took place in East Germany?

 

[D-Queued]

Dave, I think I know who you are, but that's beside the point. You sure know a lot for actually not knowing what went on, in details. I have no doubt about doping in East Germany, but all these fear tactics are a bit overblown, IMO. Anyway, now that we know that West Germany doped just as much as the east, or at least it was significant to the point that their football teams, biathlon teams, handball teams, cyclists, swimmers (Mark Warnecke, for example) all benefited in the 70's, 80's and once Germany was unified, it all clicked together.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/09/s...n-sports-doping-in-1970s-study-says.html?_r=0

If you know who I am, then you should know that I am pretty reluctant to stick my neck out for anything but the blindingly obvious.

As Granville points out, this isn't fear tactics.

The Stasi monitored program has now been well documented. Ask Werner Franke. And, the Stasi were well known for their documentation. That is also well documented.

You don't need to know anyone from the former Republic to get any special knowledge of these well known facts..

The gist: State funds were directed towards young athletes to achieve success that would promote East Germany in the international community.

It was standard practice and policy to dope these athletes.

from Wikipedia:

East Germany conducted a decades long program to feed performance-enhancing drugs to their athletes, known officially as State Plan 14.25. The drug regimens, given either with or without the knowledge of the athletes, resulted in victories in international competitions, including the Olympic Games. East Germany had been a pioneering state in doping, so much that it was considered to be the inventor of doping.

The provider of the drugs was still recently being pursued legally.

So here is the blinding logic:

To consider that there would have been a youth athlete who had managed to somehow be accepted in one of the doping academies that would not have been doped is implausible.

Doping was State policy. Period.

Doping existed in other countries, both communist and capitalist, says expert Jean-Pierre de Mondenard, but the difference with East Germany was that it was a state policy

Moreover,

It is estimated that some 9,000 former athletes, perhaps more, were doped in a program that ran for decades ...

If they put Jan into an academy, then he was part of the State program. Doping was an integral part of the program, not voluntary, and not for some and not others.

To put a finer point on it:

The state established a tight network of local training centers and “training bases” throughout the country. These were designed to identify future athletic talents early on and prepare prospective candidates for special state “Children and Youth Sport Schools” (KJS) (NOTE: Ullrich attended the prestigious KJS school in Berlin). ...

...the Stasi employed an army of 3,000 informants at any given moment to keep these athletes in line and prevent them from speaking to the foreign press.

...Today, many of the doctors and coaches implicated in the decades-long doping scandal are still active in the sports world

The program was a "..."state-ordered, systematic and universal" usage of illegal performance-enhancing drugs..."

...If performance was not up to par, then the individual sport club leaders must answer to their dfrectors. In Dresden this led to an "ideological clarification" to rectify the problem.

The effort to dope the athletes, and to make sure that they stayed in line, was as monumental as it was "systematic".

To profess otherwise suggests that folks here are either too lazy to use Google or don't know how.

Please recall the context, particularly once the Olympics were awarded to Munich for 1972, behind the program.

The goal was to dominate the medal count, and it has been oft-described in the East German context as a war. Dominating the medal count at first meant focusing on a few sports where success was most likely, and this became broadened to expand the success.

"...So flagrant was this war coupUng sports and ideology that West Germany's
leading news magazine, Der Spiegel, devoted a four issue series to the renewed East meets West confrontation. ..."

Why did East Germans succeed in the relatively obscure sport of rowing? Because there were lots of medals up for grabs.

To suggest that cycling was too obscure, is likewise absurd. If they put a cyclist into a KJS then they wanted international success in cycling as well. There is no other explanation.

Dave.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

http://www.desertsun.com/story/mone...m-blixseth-yellowstone-club-lawsuit/12716119/

 

[D-Queued]

http://www.desertsun.com/story/mone...m-blixseth-yellowstone-club-lawsuit/12716119/

Kinda funny with the contrast between who wins all their lawsuits, and says nothing about it, and who loses all their lawsuits yet tries to reshape perception by claiming victory.

Dave.