LeMond: Ullrich is the best rider of his generation, he would have won every Tour

[Neworld]

Doping methods and results are not the kind of things you find in books.

http://youtu.be/1yGEa39oH80

He doesn't look like "muscles on muscles" in that video.

In fact he looks like someone with gracile arms, a strong back, average legs and next to no adiposity. C/w 2013 and just before the 2006 TdF when he looked quite muscular. His change in physique may explain the changing arms race from maximizing EPO to lets take it all.

I would like to hear what KL, FL and TH think of Jan's doping heresay from 2000-2003.

PS: as for Cuddles, ya lets drop him. He is just like Jan. Likeable, but if you watch the 2005 TdFs onward he is clearly doping.

 

[Race Radio]

RR, what do you make of the second-hand claim, whose source was ultimately supposed to be Livingston, that Ullrich was racing with a low hematocrit of 42%, tops, in the early 2000s? Do you think JV misquoted Livingston, did he misremember, was Livingston simply wrong, or did Ullrich's program not rely on a particularly high hematocrit (kinda like Rasmussen in 2005)?

I think that the idea that Livingston had info on what Jan was doing is absurd. Jan and Rudy kept everything separate from the team. That is why Jan's name hardly appears in the Freiburg report. In fact they said at the press conference

"We found nothing new against Jan Ullrich,

It is more likely that the races or training camps Kevin was at were during periods where he was not transfusing.......he didn't pay Fuentes 80,000 Euros to keep his Hct at 42%

 

[Race Radio]

i think there is no way to tell how good or bad any riders natural ability was during the EPO era.

Yup. One of the worst parts of the era is we will never know what the sport might have been

 

[hrotha]

I think that the idea that Livingston had info on what Jan was doing is absurd. Jan and Rudy kept everything separate from the team. That is why Jan's name hardly appears in the Freiburg report. In fact they said at the press conference



It is more likely that the races or training camps Kevin was at were during periods where he was not transfusing.......he didn't pay Fuentes 80,000 Euros to keep his Hct at 42%

Yeah, but when exactly did he start working with Fuentes? I always thought Livingston might have been referring to 2000 and 2001, basically, and that Ullrich might have started working with Fuentes maybe around the time of his 2003 resurgence. I don't know how far Ullrich's involvement with Ufe goes, to be honest.

On the other hand, there's other stuff from that chat that turned out to be false or to have gone through a broken telephone thing, like JV's story about Landis's flushed blood bags.

 

[Bavarianrider]

It's quiet plausible Ullrich and Telekom were racing without Epo and blood bags during the Tour in 2000 and 2001
Lot's of indications point to this direction
Ullrich started to work with Fuentes when he joined Coast/Bianchi

 

[Benotti69]

Yup. One of the worst parts of the era is we will never know what the sport might have been

Worse for the riders during that era that had natural talents but were not great responders or wanted to race clean and left the sport.

 

[jens_attacks]

It's quiet plausible Ullrich and Telekom were racing without Epo and blood bags during the Tour in 2000 and 2001

 

[Escarabajo]

It's quiet plausible Ullrich and Telekom were racing without Epo and blood bags during the Tour in 2000 and 2001
Lot's of indications point to this direction
Ullrich started to work with Fuentes when he joined Coast/Bianchi

 

[Escarabajo]

Yeah, but when exactly did he start working with Fuentes? I always thought Livingston might have been referring to 2000 and 2001, basically, and that Ullrich might have started working with Fuentes maybe around the time of his 2003 resurgence. I don't know how far Ullrich's involvement with Ufe goes, to be honest.

On the other hand, there's other stuff from that chat that turned out to be false or to have gone through a broken telephone thing, like JV's story about Landis's flushed blood bags.

How could he have known??

I disregarded his information from the beginning. There is no way of knowing the truthfulness of the information. He could have just heard it from Jan for all I know.

 

[Race Radio]

It's quiet plausible Ullrich and Telekom were racing without Epo and blood bags during the Tour in 2000 and 2001
Lot's of indications point to this direction
Ullrich started to work with Fuentes when he joined Coast/Bianchi

Telekom were racing in 2000 and 2001 without bloodbags. Not sure about Jan. In the Frieburg report they detailed about how they explored blood bags but did could not come up with a solution they were comfortable with. According to multiple Telekom riders they did not start using transfusions until 2004.

It was not just Telekom. I am sure someone will correct me but I have not heard of any times, besides USPS, using transfusions in 2000. I have heard some Kelme riders experimented in 2002 and then other members of the team were on the program in 2003....but nothing about 2000

 

[Catwhoorg]

Why would they need to bank blood ?

No Urine EPO test until 2002/3, just take a little more Poe until you hit 50%

 

[Escarabajo]

Why would someone use blood bags in 2000 when you could still get away with EPO.

 

[Race Radio]

Why would someone use blood bags in 2000 when you could still get away with EPO.

The EPO test was finalized in 2000 and was used at the Sydney Olympics that year.

There was a lot of concern about using EPO in the Tour in 2000 as the urine test had a 3 day window and the blood test, which I don't think was ever used, was said to have a 20 day window. It was due to this increase risk that Ferrari started USPS' blood doping program in 2000 and figured out how to use microdosing OOC

 

[Neworld]

The EPO test was finalized in 2000 and was used at the Sydney Olympics that year.

There was a lot of concern about using EPO in the Tour in 2000 as the urine test had a 3 day window and the blood test, which I don't think was ever used, was said to have a 20 day window. It was due to this increase risk that Ferrari started USPS' blood doping program in 2000 and figured out how to use microdosing OOC

And, wasn't the fear initiated by Ferrari who had Italian collusional resources in the IOC ?

 

[Race Radio]

And, wasn't the fear initiated by Ferrari who had Italian collusional resources in the IOC ?

Ferrari certainly had connections to the early test research that went nowhere but the later tests were developed by the French I doubt he had a connection to. The blood test was actually looked for Rct levels. This was also started by the French when they started Logitudinal testing in 99.

It is interesting to note that in the top 10 that year most had a connection to Ferrari or Fuentes, Although Fuentes did not start working for Kelme until 2003

 

[Bavarianrider]

Telekom were racing in 2000 and 2001 without bloodbags. Not sure about Jan. In the Frieburg report they detailed about how they explored blood bags but did could not come up with a solution they were comfortable with. According to multiple Telekom riders they did not start using transfusions until 2004.

It was not just Telekom. I am sure someone will correct me but I have not heard of any times, besides USPS, using transfusions in 2000. I have heard some Kelme riders experimented in 2002 and then other members of the team were on the program in 2003....but nothing about 2000

Of course. 2000 and 2001 in general were "blood manipulation" cleaner than 92-99 and from 2002 onwards.

If you look at Ullrichs Watt/Kilo performances you see that in 00/01 he was 7% off his 97 top levels.

 

[Bavarianrider]

Why would someone use blood bags in 2000 when you could still get away with EPO.

US Postal used blood backs in the 2000 Tour /read Hamilton's book)

 

[Gregga]

It was not just Telekom. I am sure someone will correct me but I have not heard of any times, besides USPS, using transfusions in 2000. I have heard some Kelme riders experimented in 2002 and then other members of the team were on the program in 2003....but nothing about 2000

I agree for 2000, I think only USPS were using BBs but I still wonder how Ullrich, the Kelme, Pantani, Virenque or Moreau managed to be so good in the third week if they had no BB. Did they take the risk of using EPO every 2 days ? Maybe.

I think transfusions (maybe mostly homologuous transfusions) were not rare in 2001-2002 : we've got Riis talking about transfusions to Tyler in late 2001, Boogerd using his brothers blood in Tdf 2002, Simoni testing positive for cocaine after using his cousin's blood, Garzelli for probenecide. Remember in 2002, Fuentes was already well trained to BB rotation with Tyler. In 2003, maybe 30 or 40 riders were using (autologuous) transfusions on the TdF, including guys like Moreau who disappeared in 2001-2002 with the EPO test. That's the 'level playing field year' Hamilton mentions in his book... In 2004-2005, Lance had something else, it was not level any more !

 

[arvc40]

Lemond coming out with nonsense like this only confirms my opinion of him, a very talented bike rider but a bit of an idiot.

The fact is that no one knows who was the best undoped. Ullrich's career was heavily dominated by doping and his wins came at the height of the EPO doping era. Conjecture about who was the best was idiotic.

Exactly. Sad in a way that the riders themselves don't even know what there body's can do clean. There all life long dopers.

 

[arvc40]

I see Lemond has decided to join the

and why not.....

Exactly !. He is a ****ing clown.

 

[Race Radio]

I agree for 2000, I think only USPS were using BBs but I still wonder how Ullrich, the Kelme, Pantani, Virenque or Moreau managed to be so good in the third week if they had no BB. Did they take the risk of using EPO every 2 days ? Maybe.

I think transfusions (maybe mostly homologuous transfusions) were not rare in 2001-2002 : we've got Riis talking about transfusions to Tyler in late 2001, Boogerd using his brothers blood in Tdf 2002, Simoni testing positive for cocaine after using his cousin's blood, Garzelli for probenecide. Remember in 2002, Fuentes was already well trained to BB rotation with Tyler. In 2003, maybe 30 or 40 riders were using (autologuous) transfusions on the TdF, including guys like Moreau who disappeared in 2001-2002 with the EPO test. That's the 'level playing field year' Hamilton mentions in his book... In 2004-2005, Lance had something else, it was not level any more !

I have wondered the same thing.

The top 10 of 2000 has mostly guys who worked with Feuntes. Some who came out of nowhere. I have not heard anything about other teams using them in 2000, but it would not surprise me if they did.

Riis was lying when he talked to Tyler about transfusions in late 2001. Transfusions are nasty business. Most riders never did them. Riis was trying to make Tyler feel comfortable with a really nasty process.

We know from the Frieburg report and Jef d'Hont that Riis was taking TWICE the EPO and HGH of the other riders on Telekom. He jacked his Hct up to 64%. He would not need to use transfusions to do this, he had undetectable EPO.

 

[Escarabajo]

US Postal used blood backs in the 2000 Tour /read Hamilton's book)

I know that, but the rest of the teams did not have to do that. Remember that Ferrari was always ahead of the game.

 

[Escarabajo]

The EPO test was finalized in 2000 and was used at the Sydney Olympics that year.

There was a lot of concern about using EPO in the Tour in 2000 as the urine test had a 3 day window and the blood test, which I don't think was ever used, was said to have a 20 day window. It was due to this increase risk that Ferrari started USPS' blood doping program in 2000 and figured out how to use microdosing OOC

OK.
I thought that it was really the 2001 that the new testing came into effect. In 2000 the test was still on the initial stages of implementation and still offered a big window for wrong interpretation.

Wasn't in Suisse 2001 that Armstrong got caught using EPO? which pretty much proves that almost everyone was still on EPO during 2000.

 

[Race Radio]

OK.
I thought that it was really the 2001 that the new testing came into effect. In 2000 the test was still on the initial stages of implementation and still offered a big window for wrong interpretation.

Wasn't in Suisse 2001 that Armstrong got caught using EPO? which pretty much proves that almost everyone was still on EPO during 2000.

No, it does not.

Armstrong was warned by Ferrari to not take EPO, he did anyway. He did not give enough time for it to clear his system and it triggered a borderline result.

I am sure riders still used EPO in training but to use it in a 3 week race, especially when you are in one of the jerseys and being tested every day, would be super risky.

 

[BigBoat]

Today I dusted off my old Graham Watson, Bettini book of cycling 2003 and read the foreward by Watson about how
"cycling has had a real victory, but we must not become complainant as the fight against doping scandals is never ending." Not word for word but I though it was hilarious, reminds me alot of whats being said today really.

Anyways I think all the top riders have talent but without dope it would be different certainly, I dont agree Ullrich was the best of his time. I think there were a lot of good guys and its too close to call really. Lance was certainly an unstoppable machine while doped with Ferrari program for sure though....