Lesser known races 2025 edition

[Red Rick]

When was Hirschi ever hyped as a GT rider? Not sure why Del Toro and Hirschi are comparable at all

UAE rider farming the smaller Italian one day racer? The degree may be different, but it's absolutely comparable.

 

[YavorD]

When was Hirschi ever hyped as a GT rider? Not sure why Del Toro and Hirschi are comparable at all

They are about as comparable as winning Italian one day races is comparable to winning a GT.

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

Great win, by the most prolific rider this season, recognized as such by everyone...well, almost everyone. Not sure I understand why UAE should leave him home so these races could be won by other WT riders?

 

[burning]

UAE rider farming the smaller Italian one day racer? The degree may be different, but it's absolutely comparable.

Sure, both of them farm smaller Italian races, but one of them struggles to finish top 100 in a GT

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

So you're telling me that you would put Del Toro above Evenepoel, Lipowitz or Hindley?

And yes you can call him however you want, but then you get triggered when Remco fans claim that he could beat Pogacar in X or Y race.
So if you try to be so objective (as you claim to be when discussing Pogacar - Evenepoel), you can't call him top favourite before you see he actually improved in the high mountains.

While it may seem a stretch, I would, and I think the coming years will bear that out.

 

[Breh]

While the farming of Italian 1.1 races is comparable, I also think that is where the comparison ends.
However, farming Italian 1.1's doesn't indicate any GT prowess.

His last relevant performance GC wise was probably the stage over the Finestre.

 

[red_flanders]

Del Toro is one of the most winning riders in the world at age 21, whatever the level of races, and he's done very well in some very nice races, the Giro included.

No one needs to crown or anoint anyone before they produce in a GT, but...

• He's already showed incredible talent in the Giro
• Some people care a lot more about one-day races than GT's, or at least just as much

I think any comments suggesting he's overhyped are fairly delusional. Probably informed by some agenda about some favored rider being (seemingly) diminished in comparison. We've seen it before.

He isn't at his potential yet for a GT, obviously. That said, he's shown an incredible level for his age, and I personally wouldn't bet against him in any race Pogacar isn't racing next year. Amazingly talented rider.

 

[Peyroteo94]

So you're telling me that you would put Del Toro above Evenepoel, Lipowitz or Hindley?

And yes you can call him however you want, but then you get triggered when Remco fans claim that he could beat Pogacar in X or Y race.
So if you try to be so objective (as you claim to be when discussing Pogacar - Evenepoel), you can't call him top favourite before you see he actually improved in the high mountains.

I didn't say right now. I said in 2026 and I also said it is my feeling talking, in any moment I said I was right. But in 8 months, we will see if I'm right or not.

Edit: Some Remco fans say Remco is on par with Pogacar in classics, right now. This is ridiculous.
I never said Del Toro is the third best GT rider right now. I think he will next year though and why?
1. Age is on his side.
2. His breakthrough year. He made a huge leap this year and I expect another one next year (without crashes). I already saw this movie with so many riders (Pogacar in 2019, Vingegaard in 2021, Froome in 2011, etc). These riders made a significant jump in performance the year after.

 

[Cycling111]

I hope not. It's Almeida's last chance of winning a GT IMO.

I Think Almeida will never win a GT, and it's sad to think that Kuss has one and he not being a more complete rider, but I think it's the reality. This year, his performance declined in the Vuelta, which is a joke of a course, and in the Giro, it's more difficult.

 

[Cycling111]

So you're telling me that you would put Del Toro above Evenepoel, Lipowitz or Hindley?

And yes you can call him however you want, but then you get triggered when Remco fans claim that he could beat Pogacar in X or Y race.
So if you try to be so objective (as you claim to be when discussing Pogacar - Evenepoel), you can't call him top favourite before you see he actually improved in the high mountains.

Hindley's level at Marmolada hasn't been typical of him either. He had a good Tour de France in 2023 and this Vuelta, but he's not a consistent rider and not at Marmolada´s level.

I agree with Lipowitz. Lipowitz won't be as winner in this type of classic, but his Tour de France seems far superior to Del Toro's Giro. His level was much higher, and he was consistent in the toughest mountain stages, something Del Toro failed at in the Giro.

 

[Cycling111]

Great win, by the most prolific rider this season, recognized as such by everyone...well, almost everyone. Not sure I understand why UAE should leave him home so these races could be won by other WT riders?

Due to excessive workload. Kuss completed three GTs in 2023, won the last one, and in 2024 had his worst season of all.
Del Toro probably doesn't notice this because his races haven't been three GTs, but we've seen what such a season-long overload entails in other riders. Kuss's case is the most obvious in recent years.

 

[AlfaLum]

So you're telling me that you would put Del Toro above Evenepoel, Lipowitz or Hindley?

And yes you can call him however you want, but then you get triggered when Remco fans claim that he could beat Pogacar in X or Y race.
So if you try to be so objective (as you claim to be when discussing Pogacar - Evenepoel), you can't call him top favourite before you see he actually improved in the high mountains.

Evenepoel on his best no, but i dont see him riding the Giro next year. Lipowitz if he rides the Giro I would put him on similar level as del Toro at the moment.

Hindley for me definitely below del Toro right now.

 

[Cycling111]

Vingegaard will do the Giro.

 

[YavorD]

Evenepoel on his best no, but i dont see him riding the Giro next year. Lipowitz if he rides the Giro I would put him on similar level as del Toro at the moment.

Hindley for me definitely below del Toro right now.

Exactly what has Del Toro shown to justify a claim that he is on a similar level to Lipowitz?
In the only race that had anything remotely close to a real mountain, Vuelta a Burgos, he was easily dropped by Ciccone.
How about we see a real mountainous race where he shows improvement and just then assess his real level? For what we know at the moment, he is a weaker climber than Carapaz and Yates.

 

[AlfaLum]

Hindley's level at Marmolada hasn't been typical of him either. He had a good Tour de France in 2023 and this Vuelta, but he's not a consistent rider and not at Marmolada´s level.

I agree with Lipowitz. Lipowitz won't be as winner in this type of classic, but his Tour de France seems far superior to Del Toro's Giro. His level was much higher, and he was consistent in the toughest mountain stages, something Del Toro failed at in the Giro.

I agree with the assessment that Lipowitz performances in the high mountains in the Tour where better than Del Toros performance in the Giro.

However we also have to consider that Lipowitz could ride the Tour without a lot of opposition. Nobody was racing against Lipowitz and Onley, nobody was putting pressure on them. It was just a hang on as long as you can and get a good result race for them.

If those guys would race a Giro against del Toro we would see a GT where other contenders will try to exploit weaknesses or weak moments from these guys. And to be honest I do think that Lipowitz for now has a couple of weaknesses outside of the mountains/TT.

 

[Cycling111]

I agree with the assessment that Lipowitz performances in the high mountains in the Tour where better than Del Toros performance in the Giro.

However we also have to consider that Lipowitz could ride the Tour without a lot of opposition. Nobody was racing against Lipowitz and Onley, nobody was putting pressure on them. It was just a hang on as long as you can and get a good result race for them.

If those guys would race a Giro against del Toro we would see a GT where other contenders will try to exploit weaknesses or weak moments from these guys. And to be honest I do think that Lipowitz for now has a couple of weaknesses outside of the mountains/TT.

Del Toro's opponent in the Giro was Simon Yates, who hadn't won a GT in seven years.
Lipowitz finished behind Vingegaard, Del Toro behind Vingegaard's domestique.

I don't think Almeida will win a GT, but right now I'd put him ahead of Del Toro for a GT.

Until Del Toro proves he's better in the high mountains, he's an inconsistent rider. He's very good in classics, if they don't exceed 200 kilometers, but in GTs right now he's on par with Carapaz. Or less, because he was inferior to Carapaz in the high mountains.

This conversation reminds me a lot of what was being said about Ayuso until recently. Ayuso has won several one-week races and minor classics, and he's still a rider who raises doubts about winning a GT.

 

[red_flanders]

I don't think Almeida will win a GT, but right now I'd put him ahead of Del Toro for a GT.

Entirely reasonable. Would you be stunned if Del Toro ended up being stronger in the next year or two? I wouldn't.

This conversation reminds me a lot of what was being said about Ayuso until recently. Ayuso has won several one-week races and minor classics, and he's still a rider who raises doubts about winning a GT.

Never got the Ayuso thing, sure he's talented in a very GT kinda way (TT, climbing) but always has been a head case. Never a believer personally. But OK, can see where the parallel lies obviously.

I think there are two conversations happening in the thread. On one hand there are folks talking about what he's done and whether it warrants ranking him highly (whatever that means) based on his results to this date. On the other hand, there are folks looking at what he's done, thinking about his age, the level of panache he's shown, and projecting his potential. The two are easily conflated.

The questions are "how quickly will he continue to ascend", and "what's his upper limit eventually".

I personally wouldn't be at all surprised to see him competing at the level of Almeida, Lipo, Remco in the very near future. 6 to 18 months. That said, I'd also expect all those riders to improve as well. So Del Toro has some catching up to do. Seems possible or even likely.

 

[Cycling111]

Entirely reasonable. Would you be stunned if Del Toro ended up being stronger in the next year or two? I wouldn't.

Never got the Ayuso thing, sure he's talented in a very GT kinda way (TT, climbing) but always has been a head case. Never a believer personally. But OK, can see where the parallel lies obviously.

I think there are two conversations happening in the thread. On one hand there are folks talking about what he's done and whether it warrants ranking him highly (whatever that means) based on his results to this date. On the other hand, there are folks looking at what he's done, thinking about his age, the level of panache he's shown, and projecting his potential. The two are easily conflated.

The questions are "how quickly will he continue to ascend", and "what's his upper limit eventually".

I personally wouldn't be at all surprised to see him competing at the level of Almeida, Lipo, Remco in the very near future. 6 to 18 months. That said, I'd also expect all those riders to improve as well. So Del Toro has some catching up to do. Seems possible or even likely.

No, but I'm speaking today. I don't know what will happen tomorrow. Del Toro reminds me a lot of Ayuso's early days.
After Marmolada, many saw Hindley as a multiple GT winner.
There are several cases of riders who don't develop in GT. Del Toro has to prove what they say in GT, and he won't always have to compete with Simon Yates and Carapaz, who are far from their prime.

We only have the Giro to judge, and on the two toughest days, he succumbed to Carapaz and Yates. For a GT, that matters more than these classics.

I've given you the example of Ayuso, but you can also take Valverde. Del Toro reminds me Valverde.
Valverde was a monster for most of the year, but he only won one Vuelta.
And I'll give you another, more obvious example. Sean Kelly, another cyclist who only won one Vuelta. If we had looked at his results in the Classics or Paris-Nice, anyone would have said he'd won several GTs.

GT's capabilities are demonstrated in a GT, and so far, all we've seen is Del Toro having a terrible time on the toughest stage. Del Toro didn't just lose the Giro in Finestre; what happened to him earlier on the toughest stage goes largely unnoticed.

Giro d'Italia 2025 Stage 16 results

Giro d'Italia 2025 Stage 16 from Piazzola sul Brenta to San Valentino (Brentonico) was won by Christian Scaroni before Lorenzo Fortunato and Giulio Pellizzari. Isaac del Toro was leading the general classification.

www.procyclingstats.com

 

[AlfaLum]

Exactly what has Del Toro shown to justify a claim that he is on a similar level to Lipowitz?
In the only race that had anything remotely close to a real mountain, Vuelta a Burgos, he was easily dropped by Ciccone.
How about we see a real mountainous race where he shows improvement and just then assess his real level? For what we know at the moment, he is a weaker climber than Carapaz and Yates.

It seems the debate here is whether we are allowed to believe in a rider ability or potential ability without having any prove from past performances.

For me it is not necessary that somebody has proven something before I believe he has the ability to do so.

With del Toro, for me it is a combination of his exceptional growth, his allround performances and his ability to win that make me believe he will be able to prove himself also in areas where he hasnt proven himself to date.

That being said, even if I would go with the argument that somebody needs to have proven things before we can believe in abilities, with Lipowitz I would argue that as of now he has never shown the ability to actually WIN important races. So Lipowitz for me is entirely unproven when he actually has to contest for the win. Unlike Del Toro who is winning a lot even at quite high levels of racing.

 

[Cycling111]

It seems the debate here is whether we are allowed to believe in a rider ability or potential ability without having any prove from past performances.

For me it is not necessary that somebody has proven something before I believe he has the ability to do so.

With del Toro, for me it is a combination of his exceptional growth, his allround performances and his ability to win that make me believe he will be able to prove himself also in areas where he hasnt proven himself to date.

That being said, even if I would go with the argument that somebody needs to have proven things before we can believe in abilities, with Lipowitz I would argue that as of now he has never shown the ability to actually WIN important races. So Lipowitz for me is entirely unproven when he actually has to contest for the win. Unlike Del Toro who is winning a lot even at quite high levels of racing.

There have been multiple winners, like Valverde or Kelly, who only managed to win one Vuelta, the most accessible GT for those riders who struggled in GT.

Lipowitz isn't a winner, but he has finished on the podium in a Tour behind Pogacar and Vingegaard. For a GT, that's what matters more than winnings in other races.
It remains to be seen whether he can repeat it; there have been cyclists who have had a great GT and have not been able to emulate it.

Vingegaard only had two professional victories before winning the Tour
If it were a matter of victories, half the peloton would have won a Tour before Vingegaard.

 

[AlfaLum]

There have been multiple winners, like Valverde or Kelly, who only managed to win one Vuelta, the most accessible GT for those riders who struggled in GT.

Lipowitz isn't a winner, but he has finished on the podium in a Tour behind Pogacar and Vingegaard. For a GT, that's what matters more than winnings in other races.
It remains to be seen whether he can repeat it; there have been cyclists who have had a great GT and have not been able to emulate it.

Vingegaard only had two professional victories before winning the Tour
If it were a matter of victories, half the peloton would have won a Tour before Vingegaard.

With these kind of discussion it is always very easy to find evidence in favor of the way you feel a rider might or might not develop.

I could for example now raise an argument that Pogacars Vueltas podium and subsequent Tour de France win in the year after that could serve as evidence on why I believe this could extend to Del Toro winning a GT next year.

Similarly I can say that Buchmann is also a non winner like Lipowitz and also once almost podiumed the Tour only to hardly ever be at the front end of a GT again.

In the end predictions always come down to what you believe. For me I think I have seen enough evidence from Del Toro this year to fully believe he can win GTs next year and the years after. While with Lipowitz I see the possibilities but less firmly believe in it actually happening.

But I fully understand it if there are people who feel the exact opposite.

 

[Cycling111]

With these kind of discussion it is always very easy to find evidence in favor of the way you feel a rider might or might not develop.

I could for example now raise an argument that Pogacars Vueltas podium and subsequent Tour de France win in the year after that could serve as evidence on way I believe this could extend to Del Toro winning a GT next year.

Similarly I can say that Lip

Pogacar's first Vuelta isn't the equivalent of Del Toro's Giro; he did it as a neo-pro. It would be comparable to Del Toro's Vuelta last year.
Pogacar's second GT was a Tour de France, and against the then-best cyclist in the world at this moment, not his domestique Simon.

I don't think that comparison suits him.
Not to mention that UAE was a disaster in 2020 and Pogacar faced alonte against fearsome Jumbo, Del Toro had the best team in the Giro.
In GT, I think it's more accurate to compare him to Ayuso, for now.

 

[red_flanders]

GT's capabilities are demonstrated in a GT, and so far, all we've seen is Del Toro having a terrible time on the toughest stage. Del Toro didn't just lose the Giro in Finestre; what happened to him earlier on the toughest stage goes largely unnoticed.

Giro d'Italia 2025 Stage 16 results

Giro d'Italia 2025 Stage 16 from Piazzola sul Brenta to San Valentino (Brentonico) was won by Christian Scaroni before Lorenzo Fortunato and Giulio Pellizzari. Isaac del Toro was leading the general classification.

www.procyclingstats.com

I saw a 21-year-old rider get second in the Giro.

That shows me GT capabilities. Quite extraordinary ones, frankly.

 

[AlfaLum]

Pogacar's first Vuelta isn't the equivalent of Del Toro's Giro; he did it as a neo-pro. It would be comparable to Del Toro's Vuelta last year.
Pogacar's second GT was a Tour de France, and against the then-best cyclist in the world at this moment, not his domestique Simon.

I don't think that comparison suits him.
Not to mention that UAE was a disaster in 2020 and Pogacar faced alonte against fearsome Jumbo, Del Toro had the best team in the Giro.
In GT, I think it's more accurate to compare him to Ayuso, for now.

I hit the post button to early so was still finishing my full post.

 

[Cycling111]

I saw a 21-year-old rider get second in the Giro.

That shows me GT capabilities. Quite extraordinary ones, frankly.

Ayuso third with 19 and Hindley won a Giro.
We were discussing because a member said he'll be the third-best GT rider in 2026.