Let's form a hypothetical doping regime during these 21 days for Lance

[blackcat]

OK, lets form Lance's doping regime.

No, we aint as good as Ferrari, but we are pretty good. Even tho BigBoat thinks he is the seer, he ain't.

So, Andreu and JV discuss the 35 injections in the IM.

Lets get it out.

There is a structure:

Cardiac/respiratory drugs.
Central Nervous System drugs (CNS).
Circulation/blood drugs.
Oxygen vector drugs/techniques.

Lets have the core armory.

1. Insulin
2. Synacthen
3. IGF-1
4. HGH
5* transfusions.

Now, BB reckons transfusions can come in the morning on the tt or Queen stages. And this is where he reveals himself as a naif, with weasel words attempting to come off as an informed alchemist. If he really knew, he would know that the body takes a few days, to kick that extra capacity into gear. And Kohl just confirmed this, by saying 48 hours were required.

So it is even to simplified to schedule rest-day transfusions, when they may be neutralised for the important stages, as the body adapts to new hemoglobin capacity. You should have know this before Kohl BigBoat, that is why I call BS on lots of your stuff.

OK, I need some help completing the drug program, especially the recovery drugs for the CNS, the circulatory system and the cardiac system. No doubt BigBoat will know some, but I do not see the plasma expanders playing the role since the transfusions can keep everything ambiguous and within the limits. No need for the expanders.

Lance, we are gonna charge 15% of your Nike contract for advising you.


http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/tour-like-a-mobile-pharmacy-10544

Tour like a mobile pharmacy

A French newspaper report has revealed evidence of a culture of medical dependency in the Tour de FrFrench newspaper Le Journal du Dimanche (JDD) has eased open the door of the Tour de France medicine cabinet to lay bare what it claims is an unnerving culture of medical dependency in the pro peloton. A special report today reveals that, on average, 11 foreign teams present at the Tour requested permission to travel to the race equipped with more than 80 different products. As was the case in 2003, four teams failed to submit a request to import medicines to the French Agency of Sanitary Safety of Health Products (AFSSAP) before arriving on French soil. These teams are theoretically breaking the law by their mere presence at the Grande Boucle. Only in the unlikely event of a drop-in from French customs officers, though, do they risk sanctions, since the AFSSAP has no powers of coercion or punishment. Reassuringly, none of the products declared to the AFSSAP is categorically banned at the Tour. Less comforting is the news that, in addition to familiar household medicines like paracetamol, antihistamine and vitamins, the AFSSAP received and approved requests for 'heavy' products whose conventional application is difficult to reconcile with the needs of an endurance athlete. Fructose diphosphate, a treatment for respiratory disorders, various diuretics, coronary dilators and products for the detoxification of the liver belong firmly in the latter category. One team's Tour de France survival kit reportedly contains 155 products. For the sake of comparison, the JDD recalls that US Postal had 126 (authorised) products on board in the 2000 Tour. Another 2004 Tour entrant, perhaps the claimant of the 155 benchmark, has a supply of pentoxifylline tablets. These are more commonly prescribed for amnesia in the elderly. "I look after sportsmen of under 30 years of age who don't need reassurances about the state of their memory, not even to remember what the stage route is like," commented a sceptical fdjeux.com doctor, Grard Guillaume. "The cyclist's pathology is hypochondria: falls, skin irritations, digestive, pulmonary or muscular complaints. That necessitates around 30 products, no more. You can add to that a couple of medicines in case of an emergency, like a heart attack, but no more. Nothing justifies such an arsenal of products." "The size of the 'cargoes' shows that the culture of medicine is a recurring reality in cycling," Jean-Pierre de Mondenard, a sports doctor and the author of a dictionary of doping, told the JDD. "This culture is a tributary of a doping system." Mondenard went on to controversially suggest that "you would see a similar array of products in the French football team."

 

[Escarabajo]

If we believe in the 48 hours blood doping response that means that yesterday afternoon after stage 1, some of the riders already made the first transfusion. Tomorrow is the team time trial.

Men, I feel weird to be talking about these things.

 

[soix716]

This is ridiculous. How about profiling real dopers and how they did it, trying to keep up with the big riders.

This is dumb.

 

[BigBoat]

I do not see the plasma expanders playing the role since the transfusions can keep everything ambiguous and within the limits. No need for the expanders.

When your transfuse 4 units of packed red cells your crit will shoot through the roof NO DOUBT. If it didnt you would not have extra red cells and you wouldnt go any faster! You;ll get maybe as much as 9 points, like going from 46 to a 55. They have to train off blood and hemodilute big time on IV saline or lactate ringer or else their crit will be over the 50% limit... Lance likely came into the Tour de France slightly over 50% with blood doping, and for the pre races medical been hemodiluted down to upper 40s...slightly elevated from training at altitude which is "allowed" by the uci.

the body takes a few days, to kick that extra capacity into gear

Thats not completely true...some of those extra red cells start doing their job immediately. Lance and the rest of Astana likely came in slightly jacked and then they'll blood dope to 59% right before the TTT tommorow. They've been blood doped probably since last Friday evening, maybe longer! Today he was probably around 50 and hemodiluted down to his "natural" in the 40s for morning controls if he even had to do any at all... Lances undoped crit is 41%. He probably gains 12% power with 46, 20% power at 50, and maybe 30% at 57-59. But he cannot jack all the way right now because he;ll get a sample taken tommorow morning (or he could).

 

[Cobblestones]

If we believe in the 48 hours blood doping response that means that yesterday afternoon after stage 1, some of the riders already made the first transfusion. Tomorrow is the team time trial.

Men, I feel weird to be talking about these things.

T mobile drove to Freiburg the day after the prologue.

Expanders are an interesting question. On the one hand, packing gives an extra boost (and we know Kohl had a centrifuge) on the other hand, there's the 50% rule. We know about riders with increasing crit throughout the race but during the last years, none was excluded because of crit>50%.

If you time a Saline IV, I guess you could fine tune the crit below 50 for the control in the morning and then pee it all out again. Alternatively, you could get smaller transfusions more often.

The article from bikeradar is interesting. It indicates a lot of off label use going on of established drugs.

 

[blackcat]

I disagree with BB. I doubt they dump blood, then re-tranfuse. The body takes time to adjust to the excess hemoglobin, so it is redundant. Transfusing morning, dumping evening, or redopisting, does not work imo.

Kohl only had a manager who was never trained in nursing for heaven's sake. He went renegade.

So I do not think the daily use transfuse-withdrawal system is credible.

And Kohl's crit was not too high. Certainly no higher than 47. Landis' crit went from 43 to 47. He likely came in with excess capacity, and transfused twice. So he only went from 43 to 47. This assumes the tests hit the baseline, and not a sub-baseline from plasma expanders.

So, my opinion is, BB is wrong. That blood transfusions, roughly keep the parameters within the boundaries. As the boody starts to dispose of excess plasma, the crit only goes up slightly. Like Landis from 43 to 47. He likely had 3 transfusions of about 400ml packed red cells in each. But only went over slightly. 1 crit point each, hemoglobin rising when the plasma is excreted, and the crit goes up a little more, as the plasma continues to normalise.

Ofcourse, in a GT, plasma should increase, and crit drop naturally.

(I think, I am no medico, but BB does not meet the smell test. He BSs)

 

[gjdavis60]

So, do any of these guys have Port-A-Caths or Hickmans installed for the Tour, or are their arms and legs full of track marks like heroin addicts? They could be getting 2-3 sticks per day if you count the controls (which I assume are obtained via veinapuncture), not to mention "legal" hydration. Don't they have problems finding veins or have issues with veins collapsing with all these sticks? Sounds like an IV nurse's nightmare unless you had a port, imo.

 

[blackcat]

the 35 injections per stage were mostly subcutaneous I think. Some have to be administered IV. And some drugs like EPO and oil based roids, spend longer in the system when delivered subcutaneously.

The transfusions need a wide diameter gauge hypodermic. So they will leave some mark. I doubt they have any bungs installed under their sleeve or beneath their sock.

 

[Cobblestones]

I disagree with BB. I doubt they dump blood, then re-tranfuse. The body takes time to adjust to the excess hemoglobin, so it is redundant. Transfusing morning, dumping evening, or redopisting, does not work imo.

I agree. Neither has anyone come out yet and said that's what they were actually doing. I don't know where BB got the idea, but dumping and re-infusing at a later time to pass the 50% test doesn't seem plausible at all.

 

[ProfTournesol]

the other advice I'd give Lance is to at least pretend to look a little puffed when you get off your bike otherwise it might look too good to be true.

 

[blackcat]

I agree. Neither has anyone come out yet and said that's what they were actually doing. I don't know where BB got the idea, but dumping and re-infusing at a later time to pass the 50% test doesn't seem plausible at all.

this theory circulated 30-36 months back.

I would even suggest it probably has had some experimenting, at the back end of the Tours, when they have had reserves of blood ready to go.

But, doubt it would have been used more than a couple of instances. The information suggests rest days they get their transfusions, but for hitters, they would need to alter their deposits because of the phenomenon Kohl confirmed, that the body takes a few days, to be able to adequately exhaust new capacity. No use being topped up, but the practical effect is the same capacity as the day before. Doping exists for a reason, enhancement. The more BB says, the more he manages to indict his own ignorance. Atleast I understand I am a naif of this ped alchemy.

 

[blackcat]

now is about the time Bruyneel deposits 100k euro in a Swiss bank account for Astana doctors, and tells them Contador's injections have to be placebos that he does not know about. And his blood transfusion's suddenly come in warmer than room temperature and have gone off.

Lance, the bill is in the mail mate. 15%.

 

[Mellow Velo]

No need to dope, he's already moved onto cloning.
Yesterday, we had the "rouler par excellence", clone.
Today, we had the "more power output than the Hoover dam", clone.
Come Friday, we'll have the "I'm an Italian pirate" clone.

Of course, there's a special one for the podium jaunt, known as "The Hollywood" clone.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Good posts Blackcat. At first I thought you were full of shjt looking at this thread, but you say some of the same things I have about expanders, PFCEs and HBOCs, etc. plus, you're just as entertaining as BB.

Did you migrate over from CEM?

What, no talk about Repoxygen? Stem-cell gene doping? Re-engineered CERA?

 

[blackcat]

Good posts Blackcat. At first I thought you were full of shjt looking at this thread, but you say some of the same things I have about expanders, PFCEs and HBOCs, etc. plus, you're just as entertaining as BB.

Did you migrate over from CEM?

What, no talk about Repoxygen? Stem-cell gene doping? Re-engineered CERA?

I have seen CEM when it was still not compulsory registration.

I tried to work out who the poster was who talked about riding San Remo. I got it down to about half a dozen riders, assumed it was an anglophone from about 2002-2005. Narrows it down greatly. There was no ESL idiom used, so assumed it was an anglophone. You can try to work out who it was.

I do not buy all those experimental stuff now, about from the oxygen vectors, because the blood doping has become so effective, there are declining economies, and the marginal gains from all other gear, do not outweigh the risks. So the times of Museeuw and Gianetti on PFCs has passed I think. Now it is just a staple diet of oxygen boosting techniques, that wont make someone keel over or get their leg amputated.

I think everyone on CEM and some other cycling messageboards knows who BigBoat is. He talks alot of crap. So do I, but I know it. He thinks it is gospel. My ****, and there are definitely alot of clean guys he wont credit.

 

[BigBoat]

I disagree with BB. I doubt they dump blood, then re-tranfuse. The body takes time to adjust to the excess hemoglobin, so it is redundant. Transfusing morning, dumping evening, or redopisting, does not work imo.

Kohl only had a manager who was never trained in nursing for heaven's sake. He went renegade.

So I do not think the daily use transfuse-withdrawal system is credible.

And Kohl's crit was not too high. Certainly no higher than 47. Landis' crit went from 43 to 47. He likely came in with excess capacity, and transfused twice. So he only went from 43 to 47. This assumes the tests hit the baseline, and not a sub-baseline from plasma expanders.

I hate to say it but You are WRONG here! Landis' crit was under 50% because he was hemodiluted big time on volume expanders! he could have been racing at 55+. The proportion of blood volume that is occupied by red blood cells(hematocrit) shoots through the roof big time with blood doping, no doubt! Blood doping one on one bro... Unless you transfuse plasma their will be a crit increase immediately and always! Landis' crit was 47% on regular saline, albumin, etc, etc for the blood controls he did.... the list goes on and on. Postal was sloppy here, they did not or were not able to get him all the way down to his "natural" of 40-43%. There was no need to then because their was no biological passport. And anyways, if a rider is "sick and dehyrated" their crit can still rise during a Grand Tour.

As far as having to train off blood, well it depends on how jacked they are for a perticular stage. Kohl was not riding for Postal/ Disco/ ASTANA he was on a smaller German outfit. He was probably only racing at 50-53%, and sleeping with that crit; not jacked all the way to 59 because they did not have enough frozen packed cells to do that, or the means to train off blood before sleeping at night then storing it and popping it in refridgeration like Postal/Disco/Astana does.... Its tough to go from 57% down to 46..... If they have to submit a blood sample to the UCI 2 hours or more post stage (as sometimes they do according the the rules) then they might have to. If Lance or any other top rider is at 60% they will ahve to bleed themselves from an 18 guage needle and they will need lactate ringer and saline BIG TIME in the motorhomes post stage.

As I say, Kohl might have only been racing at 50-52% as Ricco was. You would not want to sleep at 57-60%+ at night! You could end up dead if you become dehyrated. Kohl ,Ricco and others were not as high as Lance and Astana are. Its tough with the controls now to get that high.

Thats why Astana were such unstoppable machines today in the TTT.

 

[blackcat]

I hate to say it but You are WRONG here! Landis' crit was under 50% because he was hemodiluted big time on volume expanders! he could have been racing at 55+. The proportion of blood volume that is occupied by red blood cells(hematocrit) shoots through the roof big time with blood doping, no doubt! Blood doping one on one bro... Unless you transfuse plasma their will be a crit increase immediately and always! Landis' crit was 47% on regular saline, albumin, etc, etc for the blood controls he did.... the list goes on and on.

As far as having to train off blood, well it depends on how jacked they are for a perticular stage. Kohl was not riding for Postal/ Disco/ ASTANA he was on a smaller German outfit. He was probably only racing at 50-53%, and sleeping with that crit; not jacked all the way to 59 because they did not have enough frozen packed cells to do that, or the means to train off blood before sleeping at night then storing it and popping it in refridgeration like Postal/Disco/Astana does.... Its tough to go from 57% down to 46..... If they have to submit a blood sample to the UCI 2 hours or more post stage (as sometimes they do according the the rules) then they might have to. If Lance or any other top rider is at 60% they will ahve to bleed themselves from an 18 guage needle and they will need lactate ringer and saline BIG TIME in the motorhomes post stage.

As I say, Kohl might have only been racing at 50-52% as Ricco was. You would not want to sleep at 57-60%+ at night! You could end up dead if you become dehyrated. Kohl ,Ricco and others were not as high as Lance and Astana are. Its tough with the controls now to get that high.

Thats why Astana were such unstoppable machines today in the TTT.

they are not that high BB. I am not convinced that Astana would all be 55+ without plasma expanders. The logistical operation you are suggesting is in the order of the Twin Towers being an inside job. That in itself makes it not credible. Most riders are now doing it as renegades. Besides the Schlecks and Astana, who have consenting management. Everyone else has a dirty person deliver the good bags.

I know a guy who roomed with Ricco. He went AWOL during the Giro in the evening. This is like Raimondas Rumsas and his wife. It is all individual operators going renegade, and the teams having plausible deniability. The work is done for most, before they get to the Tour.

 

[BroDeal]

Good posts Blackcat. At first I thought you were full of shjt looking at this thread, but you say some of the same things I have about expanders, PFCEs and HBOCs, etc. plus, you're just as entertaining as BB.

Blackcat is on the up and up. You can trust what he says--unlike BigBoat who is full of sh!t half the time.

 

[BroDeal]

Now, BB reckons transfusions can come in the morning on the tt or Queen stages. And this is where he reveals himself as a naif, with weasel words attempting to come off as an informed alchemist. If he really knew, he would know that the body takes a few days, to kick that extra capacity into gear. And Kohl just confirmed this, by saying 48 hours were required.

So it is even to simplified to schedule rest-day transfusions, when they may be neutralised for the important stages, as the body adapts to new hemoglobin capacity. You should have know this before Kohl BigBoat, that is why I call BS on lots of your stuff.

I have been wondering about late morning, post vampire vist transfusions since Dr. Prentice Steffan brought it up. I heard different opionions about whether it would be effective. So Kohl's info was very interesting. It eliminate one theory I had. Now I am more suspicious that something other than transfusions and EPO is being used because the performance level has not decreased much at all. Armstrong's 2005 performance at the Tour was out of sight.

BB is Realgains or Flyer with a distinct possibility that the two are the same person. Realgains posted a bullcrap story about blood doping when he was a Cat 1 on a Cat 1 team, and the info all sounded like it came from google. This included their Cat 1 team's doctor--uh, huh--storing the blood at 33 degrees. Gee, hope that fridge temp does not vary by 3% or have cold spots that cause localized ice crystal formation. It is also nice to use blood transfusions when the chance of a Cat 1 in the U.S. being caught using EPO via testing is about nil. Realgains info about steroids appears legit, but that stuff about blood doping was crap.

Just like Flyer used to google info and pretend to be an expert, I get the same feel about BigBoat. I don't trust much of what he says.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Blackcat is on the up and up.

I like the guy

I like BigB for the most part. He's entertaining, and sometimes informative too.

I thought that about RealGains, also Flyer. You say Tom Morris. I thought about King Massimo possible. I'm not too worried one way or the other. Remember folks, I don't take any of this too, too seriously. It's as much fun as it is anything else. It's a message forum after all. And I have a pretty good BS filter and usually don't bother responding to what I think is total BS anyway.

Have to admit, I use Google too. But as I said before, I do have some sources for info in the medical field I try to bounce ideas off, and get feedback on, and have a couple of light connections in the cycling world, but mostly on a Cat 1-2 level, and most of those guys are retired. Hence "the Musseuw era" mindset I might espouse every so often, like Blackcat pointed out.

I agree some guys are riding clean (pretty clean anyway, there's a big gray area). This is where BigB and I disagree. I felt it's quite possible that Brad Wiggins rode the Giro clean. BigB says his performance on Stage 4 was too out of sight and fast. But Brad faded big time after that, really big. He could barely keep up with the autobus on Stage 16.

I have been wondering about late morning, post vampire vist transfusions since Dr. Prentice Steffan brought it up.

I'm not sure if it's Steffan, or where I heard it, but that's why I've been saying maybe the only possible way they are going to catch some of these guys is to have an early morning test, then another, second surprise test post sign-in. If someone's jacked, and this is profiled, you're going to get some interesting numbers.

Armstrong's 2005 performance at the Tour was out of sight

2004? In 2005 he did pass Ulrich in the prologue and the Tour was over. But the rest of the race he was on cruise control. In 2004 he was attacking all the time. Remember him passing Basso on Alpe d'Huez, and chasing down Kloden like Superman?

 

[Cobblestones]

I do not buy all those experimental stuff now, about from the oxygen vectors, because the blood doping has become so effective, there are declining economies, and the marginal gains from all other gear, do not outweigh the risks. So the times of Museeuw and Gianetti on PFCs has passed I think. Now it is just a staple diet of oxygen boosting techniques, that wont make someone keel over or get their leg amputated.

Here is a reasonably up to date article on oxygen carriers. You doubt their efficiency. However there has been progress since the time of Museeuw. Emulsions of PFC reach much higher concentrations nowadays. HBOC seems to be even more promising for clinical applications.

What I wonder is whether overuse of, say, PFCE could have serious side effects (I'm thinking about the liver and central nervous system), which are then managed by some of the heavy medication such as pentoxifyllin and liver detoxifiers which you mentioned in your first post and whose presence in the teams medicine cabinet seems a mystery to everybody.

 

[Bala Verde]

So how does the story "I do not perform well the day after a rest day" tie into this. Some riders always say that they'd rather not have a rest day, because it breaks the rythm. In doing so they try to anticipate criticism about their possible 'lack of performance' the day after the rest day. Could it have anything to do with the rest day transfusions, in that they need to be absorbed by the body (48hrs) or is it really a valid reason in itself...

Another thing, does your body need to be conditioned to such a rather demanding regimen of transfusions to receive the full benefits of the 'medical assistance'. Ie suppose you have been out of the running for a couple of years and you decide to make a come back. Does it make sense to do some transfusions throughout the year before you want to be competitive, let's say in July, or can you just make your come back in July (after serious training nonetheless) and start blood doping the as if it's the first time?

 

[Cobblestones]

Just to expound on my previous post. A quote from the article:

Perfluorocarbons are inert biologically. The molecules
are sequestered in the reticuloendothelial system, particularly in the Kupffer
cells of the liver and macrophages, and subsequently released back into the
plasma as a dissolved gas. The perfluorocarbon gas is then exhaled unchanged
and non-metabolized via the lungs. While previous perfluorocarbons had a
significant amount of retention in the reticuloendothelial system, current
generation perfluorocarbons such as perflubron have a retention time of
approximately one week. This allows effective elimination of perfluorocarbons
from the liver and spleen without the potential for significant organ
dysfunction.

This means that you really shouldn't get more than one dose a week otherwise you might risk liver toxicity.

Also, I wonder whether PFCE's mess with NO. Check out biological functions of NO.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Good links there Cobbles. Informative.

I tried to work out who the poster was who talked about riding San Remo. I got it down to about half a dozen riders, assumed it was an anglophone from about 2002-2005.

This reminds me. Anyone recall when OP broke and someone from La Gazetta tracked down a former Italian racer who had raced well at the Giro, and this man said that it was impossible to compete on the top level of any GT without doping. He was now working in construction or carpentry of some sort. Anyone ever track that down?

And we all assume JV is the other rider who confessed to EPO alongside Andreu, right? It was either he or Livingston, and JV and Frankie are closer friends.

Suppose you have been out of the running for a couple of years and you decide to make a come back. Does it make sense to do some transfusions throughout the year before you want to be competitive, let's say in July, or can you just make your come back in July (after serious training nonetheless) and start blood doping the as if it's the first time?

My understanding and limited experience says no, though it's a complex issue. If you took a long time off you'd be in a heavy and specific training program more than anything. When you got close to racing, most of your boosting would be in the form of altitude training and hyperbaric tent sleeping. There are benefits from doping in that you can train harder, get better recovery, etc. But doing a transfusion, say, in March, won't give you any benefit or "ramp up" for your race in July, other than you may be able to train harder. If I'm wrong on this, I'll let Blackcat or Cobbles correct me.

 

[BroDeal]

Have to admit, I use Google too. But as I said before, I do have some sources for info in the medical field I try to bounce ideas off, and get feedback on, and have a couple of light connections in the cycling world, but mostly on a Cat 1-2 level, and most of those guys are retired. Hence "the Musseuw era" mindset I might espouse every so often, like Blackcat pointed out.

I am not dissing Google use per se. When researching a subject it is important to understand what you know, what you don't know, and what you only suspect. BigBoat does not show the intellectual integrity to admit what he does not know or only suspects. I have never seen him post anything that opens the possibility that he might be wrong. Everything is stated as though it were absolute fact. It is also obvious that in many cases he just makes stuff up.

It is most obvious in his postings about blood doping. I am not an expert, but I can tell when someone is winging it. The smell of bullsh!t is distinct. Much of his information is outdated. In many cases he is living in the very early 00s, when riders were given a window big enough to dilute their blood. The window have since been tightened up and chaperones are now used. On top of that riders' hematocrits are lower than they used to be.