Let's form a hypothetical doping regime during these 21 days for Lance

[BigBoat]

BigBoat, how exactly does the timeline work with the transfusions, draining, racing, dilution, doping controls??

The blood controls are all done in the morning apart from a few instances when samples are taken hours after the finish. These are all usually in the same space of time 8-9 AM. The teams are given 15 mins notice usually, but they will automatically hemodilute with human albumin, saline every morning just in case.

Afterwards they can re-infuse blood that was trained off the night before, or more packed red cells from the freezer.

The riders I believe are coming in with high crits around 50%, and blood doping a few times during the Tour for the key stages up to 57-59% for the top riders and maybe just 50 for the lesser riders.

I'm confused why they would infuse packed cells then dilute to meet the 50% rule and then bleed the excess at night so they don't die during their sleep.

They do this because they want to race at the top and win big. Clotting becomes a risk at night when heart stroke is very low. Therefore, they want to train off blood. Perhaps 200-300 ml. The body senses blood loss and replaces it with plasma, lowering crit. They can re-infuse it in the morning after the blood controls are over with.

 

[BigBoat]

Not bashing you here, but can you provide a link for that? Go the UCI blood collection guidlines page on their website. I dont have the energy to post a link.

Go to the UCI's whole procedure on blood collection on their webpage.

This is what I think upsets people BigB. You're painting a very black and white picture. Your facts are facts, and you're treating your opinions as facts. I for one don't think the riders are ALL doped. Many, yes. Some very much so. I also think it's a huge problem, and I agree to a large degree the UCI is corrupt and out to save their own face and are akin to a political party.

You still didn't answer my question to if Brad Wiggins were doping, he'd do fairly well on Stages 4 and 5 in the Giro

I do know there are likely some clean riders at the top. Its possible to get a good finish in a classic but your arent going to win any one day races clean and you wont get to the finish of a Grand Tour without dope if there are more than 20 guys at 50% and up with blood doping. A clean team would loose many minutes in the TTT. This is HUGE, the TTT. With blood doping going on their teams will really move due to higher V02 maxes and higher FTPs.

Grand Tour racing has to do with the pace, day after day. Clean means no recovery products like HGH. The "pace" of a blood doped pack is so fast that you will do lots of micro trauma day to day just trying to ride with them inside the elimination time in the Mtns... Eventually you will burn yourself up enough where you cant hit 100% FTP on the climbs and you wont make it. Look at where Lemond finished in 1992.

The amount of sustainable watts Wiggins is putting down classifies him as doped. His 4,000 meter times were JACKED, as is his TTT performances, and prologue rides. Garmin is littered with dopers. Maybe all of them dope.

 

[unsheath]

Fascinating articles, especially about the blood substitutes. Have heard of Hemopure but knew little else. Definitely an eye opener.

 

[Bala Verde]

According to Het Nieuwsblad the anti doping institute have finally managed to develop a definite test to detect 'synacthen'

 

[blackcat]

back to plant based testo and epi to control a ratio...

 

[Cobblestones]

The blood controls are all done in the morning apart from a few instances when samples are taken hours after the finish. These are all usually in the same space of time 8-9 AM. The teams are given 15 mins notice usually, but they will automatically hemodilute with human albumin, saline every morning just in case.

Afterwards they can re-infuse blood that was trained off the night before, or more packed red cells from the freezer.

The riders I believe are coming in with high crits around 50%, and blood doping a few times during the Tour for the key stages up to 57-59% for the top riders and maybe just 50 for the lesser riders.

They do this because they want to race at the top and win big. Clotting becomes a risk at night when heart stroke is very low. Therefore, they want to train off blood. Perhaps 200-300 ml. The body senses blood loss and replaces it with plasma, lowering crit. They can re-infuse it in the morning after the blood controls are over with.

If that's what they're doing, then a simple raid of the hotel where the riders are staying (or wherever they're doing this) should find evidence. Freezers full of bags, mechanical IV pumps, centrifuges (you were talking about packed cells) and whatnot. Not easy to hide that stuff.

Also you're right that Kohl admitted the use of expanders, but nothing he did comes even close to what you conjecture. He didn't drain blood in the evening and re-injected it in the morning. Compared to your scenario, he was pretty vanilla with injecting 3 bags over the course of 3 weeks (so 3 pints). This alone would barely show up in the passport (even w/o expander, but I guess he went the extra step to be safe). Your premise, on the other hand is a riding crit of 55%++.

 

[Cobblestones]

BB, what are you thinking about the CO test. We had a thread on it on the other side which is now back on page 3. I think such a test would clear up quite a bit. First of all, even a single pint of transfusion should stand out. Second, I think even artificial O2 carriers could be detected (assuming they bond CO equally well as the Hb in RBCs). Let me link to it. Feel free to answer there, so maybe the thread gets moved to over here.

 

[BigBoat]

Also you're right that Kohl admitted the use of expanders, but nothing he did comes even close to what you conjecture. He didn't drain blood in the evening and re-injected it in the morning. Compared to your scenario, he was pretty vanilla with injecting 3 bags over the course of 3 weeks (so 3 pints). This alone would barely show up in the passport (even w/o expander, but I guess he went the extra step to be safe). Your premise, on the other hand is a riding crit of 55%++.

Kohlio DID NOT have a Postal/ Disco/ Astana medical program and the team docs, soigneers that go along with that. There are no 02 carriers that replace blood doping with your own blood. They were doing it in 2006-2008 this is obvious. Now listen, Lance said at his media talks he has the same power as 2003. He admitted in "Lance Armstrong's war" he could hold 495 watts for 35 mins. The ONLY thing he could be doing to get this is jacking all the way to 55-59% with epo/blood doping like he did 1999-2005 and yes, there are other 02 carriers like the PFCs, but blood doping gives by far the biggest bang.

If that's what they're doing, then a simple raid of the hotel where the riders are staying (or wherever they're doing this) should find evidence. Freezers full of bags, mechanical IV pumps, centrifuges (you were talking about packed cells) and whatnot. Not easy to hide that stuff.

They aint doing it in the hotel rooms anymore. An un-marked "pimped out camper van" with some serious medical toys is all they need.

And the cops cant come in without a search warrant or probable cause. Whats the probably cause in a legally parked vehicle? Think of all the cars, buses, motorhomes and trucks that are on the Tour de France. Hundreds of thousands of vehicles! Its peanuts for the riders to "dissapear for 15 minutes" to go to the bathroom. (beavis laugh.)

 

[BigBoat]

BB, what are you thinking about the CO test. We had a thread on it on the other side which is now back on page 3. I think such a test would clear up quite a bit. First of all, even a single pint of transfusion should stand out. Second, I think even artificial O2 carriers could be detected (assuming they bond CO equally well as the Hb in RBCs). Let me link to it. Feel free to answer there, so maybe the thread gets moved to over here.

This is the way to go.

http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/pdf_extract/26/1/131

This will not happen at the UCI. When a new doping method comes out thats as effective as blood doping with only the rich, popular teams having access; the UCI will start testing for autologous blood transfusions so the smaller outfits will still be at a disadvantage. Thats how it works, with the UCI; its all about keeping the playing field un-level.

 

[Belokki]

LOL! Lets talk about Spoks ear cleaning studies!

Pfff.... You guys have to much time on your hands... get a life! Losers

 

[Bala Verde]

The big Astana four have been visited by the vampires, and blood was drawn, before the Arcalis stage as mentioned in this dutch article.