Levi Leipheimer

[Ferminal]

TP called Vino a Doper.
JP took offense.
A petulant frenzy and voila - the "Levi is a doper" thread is born.

Back to Levi though.....

The Wikipedia "Dopers in Cycling" list chronicals busts from Professionals, Olympians, and World Cup winners.

Levi's Ephedra Bust would be the ONLY Amateur Level bust listed in the Wikipedia that was not Professioanal, Olympic or World Cup...
Does Levi deserve to be the ONLY Amateur bust on the WIKI page.
Yes, according to some. Big suprise.
Not sure if WikiPedia would agree.

There are PLENTY of Amateurs getting busted for doping.
I would guess 50+ per year globally.
Most are obscure and not reported.
None make the WIKI Dopers Page - unless its is Olympic or World Cup.

Levi's bust was obscure too. BFD.

Now if Taylor was caught using Ephedra - he WOULD make the Wiki Page.
World Cup / Olympian Winner.
TP, please do not use Ephedra

TP is too advanced for Ephedra... He's into Creatine instead.

 

[luckyboy]

The Wikipedia "Dopers in Cycling" list chronicals busts from Professionals, Olympians, and World Cup winners.

Levi's Ephedra Bust would be the ONLY Amateur Level bust listed in the Wikipedia that was not Professioanal, Olympic or World Cup...
Does Levi deserve to be the ONLY Amateur bust on the WIKI page.
Yes, according to some. Big suprise.
Not sure if WikiPedia would agree.

There are PLENTY of Amateurs getting busted for doping.
I would guess 50+ per year globally.
Most are obscure and not reported.
None make the WIKI Dopers Page - unless its is Olympic or World Cup.

Levi's bust was obscure too. BFD.

Levi went on to be a very well-known top-of-the-sport professional though. Not sure how many other amateurs that get busted reach that level, but if there was info, I'm sure people would add it. I know I would, regardless of whether they are now Lance's teammate or not.

 

[forty four]

You sound so much like Greg LeMond!

well thank you though i am simply a low level cat3 and certainly no greg lemond. me i use lots of caffeine helps i think for me anyways. other riders at my level do or do not use caffeine and perform equally well. having used caffeine and in the past ephedra i can honestly say i could care less if my competitors in races use ephedra/caffeine or neither whoever wins will not win based on that. it comes down to personal preference it makes minimal difference and in the heat probably the abstainers have an advantage.

 

[forty four]

why are you guys arguing about the opinion of some kid he may be an elite athlete but he is still just a kid and his opinions and words reflect that.

 

[joe_papp]

hey joe papp did you get any response from USAC yet?

The only response thus far, received Friday 4/30/2010 at 3:00PM from Andrea Smith @ USA Cycling:

Hi Joe-
That was quite a while ago. I’ll see if I can look into it and let you know.

-Andrea

 

[luckyboy]

why are you guys arguing about the opinion of some kid he may be an elite athlete but he is still just a kid and his opinions and words reflect that.

Hey, some of us are his age and don't say things like that!

 

[flicker]

I do not understand why you give creedence to this twittering thing, I got twitter response from P-Diddy and his posse and I ignored.

I guess the goal is to put Taylors name in your mouth. Oh well you want to follow that kid, as well as white satan armstrong go ahead.

I am a fan of Vino too but I do not take his victories seriously since 2004.

He is just a Kazak folk hero cartoon to me. See ya on the Madone Vino!

 

[flicker]

The thing about us Americans is that we are so unsophisticated. Please do not take us seriously.

 

[Polish]

Levi went on to be a very well-known top-of-the-sport professional though. Not sure how many other amateurs that get busted reach that level, but if there was info, I'm sure people would add it. I know I would, regardless of whether they are now Lance's teammate or not.

How about all the amateurs that went through the East German Programs?
No mention on the Wiki Page.

There are probably hundreds of Polish/Italian/Spanish/etc amateurs that got popped for doping and spanked/warned as amateurs before turning pro. Some big names in there for SURE. Poor record keeping or no record keeping for evidence. Hush Hush.
No mention on Wiki Page.

Maybe there should be a seperate page on Wiki for all the amateur dopers?
National level Amateur Races down to the amateur Office Park Crits.

I realize many feel Levi's amateur bust should be on the Wiki Page.
Not suprising in a ssddind of way.
BTW, did Levi ever appeal his Bust?
That option was given to him.
If he did appeal, did he win or lose?

 

[adambarnes]

How about all the amateurs that went through the East German Programs?
No mention on the Wiki Page.

There are probably hundreds of Polish/Italian/Spanish/etc amateurs that got popped for doping and spanked/warned as amateurs before turning pro. Some big names in there for SURE. Poor record keeping or no record keeping for evidence. Hush Hush.
No mention on Wiki Page.

there is nothing stopping you, or anyone else from adding them so long as you cite the type of references that wiki requests

wikipedia is not a definitive list of anything

if there is something you feel should be added, if only for consistency's sake, then feel free add it

 

[Polish]

there is nothing stopping you, or anyone else from adding them so long as you cite the type of references that wiki requests

wikipedia is not a definitive list of anything

if there is something you feel should be added, if only for consistency's sake, then feel free add it

How about if I feel something should NOT be added, if only for consistency's sake?

 

[adambarnes]

How about if I feel something should NOT be added, if only for consistency's sake?

if 'something' is on wikipedia and cites 'approved' sources of information, i imagine you would have to go through what would be a pretty convoluted process to attempt to have it removed

wikipedia is supposed to be a source of factual information, not opinion

some factual information will cause some discomfort to some people, just the way life is

 

[Runitout]

How about all the amateurs that went through the East German Programs?
No mention on the Wiki Page.

There are probably hundreds of Polish/Italian/Spanish/etc amateurs that got popped for doping and spanked/warned as amateurs before turning pro. Some big names in there for SURE. Poor record keeping or no record keeping for evidence. Hush Hush.
No mention on Wiki Page.

Maybe there should be a seperate page on Wiki for all the amateur dopers?
National level Amateur Races down to the amateur Office Park Crits.

I realize many feel Levi's amateur bust should be on the Wiki Page.
Not suprising in a ssddind of way.
BTW, did Levi ever appeal his Bust?
That option was given to him.
If he did appeal, did he win or lose?

I love it. It's the Chewbacca Defence.

"Here is the silly monkey! Look at the silly monkey!"

A doping bust is a doping bust. Doesn't matter if he was paid to win or not. Or what shoes he was wearing. Or whether or not he had Cornflakes for brekky.

 

[Anonymous]

I do not think Taylor's answers were stupid.
One could make a case that the questions were not too smart, however.

TSkyF, what do YOU think would have been a smart response tweet from Mr Phinney? Role Play - put yourself in Mr Phinney's shoes.

@dimspace > im not sure totally how @taylorphinney can be anti doping yet ride under the banner of the texan. is that irony? >Dont answer

festinagirl > @taylorphinney how do you justify riding for the RS
feeder team when rs just had a positive? Vino served his suspension - pot/kettle mate < Im not singling out vino, i think theres no place for any cheats in cycling

Then about 20 people asked TP if he would join bikepure.. that one was ignored as well. < I think @bikepure have got some good ideas for the sport

perfectly easy to answer tactfully

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Thanks for that TeamSkyFans. Nice to see Dim keeping busy. I see his Tweets now and then.

No shock Taylor is ignoring, or backpedaling.

 

[Neworld]

Thanks for that TeamSkyFans. Nice to see Dim keeping busy. I see his Tweets now and then.

No shock Taylor is ignoring, or backpedaling.

Unfortunately this thread explains why there is a doping problem in cycling.

A doper is a doper, and equal punishment should be issued for all. Vino, D. Millar, LL...

Some people are trying to massage excuses for dopers because:
1. "oh its when they were amateurs"
2. "its just ephendrine or caffeine"
3. "well what about the eastern block riders"
4. "look at what Telekom did in the 2000 Olympics...that was fast:

Take a deep breath, be unbiased and help the sport. There are so many dopers riding in the pack right now, some previously and rightly caught who have paid their dues, and, others that have doped to the gills earned millions and made history and still ride. In the latter grouping, people/fans still try to 'suggest' the innocence of these sinister riders with incredible stories and biased commentary. What an insult to our intelligence. Find the head of the snake and cut it off.

NW

 

[joe_papp]

Unfortunately this thread explains why there is a doping problem in cycling.

A doper is a doper, and equal punishment should be issued for all. Vino, D. Millar, LL...

Some people are trying to massage excuses for dopers because:
1. "oh its when they were amateurs"
2. "its just ephendrine or caffeine"
3. "well what about the eastern block riders"
4. "look at what Telekom did in the 2000 Olympics...that was fast:

Take a deep breath, be unbiased and help the sport. There are so many dopers riding in the pack right now, some previously and rightly caught who have paid their dues, and, others that have doped to the gills earned millions and made history and still ride. In the latter grouping, people/fans still try to 'suggest' the innocence of these sinister riders with incredible stories and biased commentary. What an insult to our intelligence. Find the head of the snake and cut it off.

NW

Great post and excellent summation of what's going on here...

That said, it looks like the discussion has gone "global" with French anti-doping commentator(s) picking it up:

http://www.cyclismag.com/article.php?sid=5781#ancre3

Effet Pappillon

La victoire d’Alexandre Vinokourov dans Liège-Bastogne-Liège pourrait bien avoir fait une victime collatérale en la personne de Levi Leipheimer.
Joe Papp, un ancien coureur cycliste contrôlé positif à la testostérone en 2006, s’en prend en effet au coéquipier de Lance Armstrong. Joe Papp, passé aux aveux, avait été entendu comme témoin dans le procès Landis où il avait rappelé l’efficacité de la testostérone. Depuis, il traite régulièrement du dopage sur « Pappillon », son blog personnel. S’il y a une chose qu’il n’aime pas, c’est qu’on s’en prenne aux repentis comme lui.
Du coup, il n'a pas apprécié que Taylor Phinney qui évolue dans l’équipe Trek Livestrong U23, s’en prenne à Vinokourov en le qualifiant de «tricheur» sur Twitter.
Pour rafraîchir la mémoire de Phinney, Joe Papp s’en est pris à Levi Leipheimer, de l’équipe RadioShack, «grande sœur» de l’équipe Trek Livestrong U23. Il affirme que le coureur américain avait été contrôlé positif à l’éphédrine en 1996 et suspendu trois mois, une information passée aux oubliettes depuis. Pour l’instant, l’intéressé n’a pas réagi.

I think TP should get credit though for whatever discomfort LL feels, if any. Or blame it on The Clinic!

Still no word from USA Cycling (not like I expected any) but if by some strange twist they decide to wade into this by confirming it, we'll pass it along.

 

[alanshearer]

Kind of lends support to the allegation that this was as much about getting your name in print as anything else.

So I'm going to monitor the rider responses to the Pellizotti situatio9n. I'll wait for your blog post calling out anyone who criticizes him but hasn't consistently criticized others.

And while were at it, why TP, and not the majority of the media and the public that voiced disapproval of Vino for winning Liege but gives Millar a pass whenever he wins?

If the real goal was to air LL positive and sanction, why not just air it? Why the need to drag TP through the mud, calling him names, etc., in the process?

 

[alanshearer]

Actually Alan, if you do some digging you'll find that JP has spoken to young cyclists, and other athletes about the horrors of doping. He's also made many posts, and many blog writings, and spoken many times on how it's ruined his life, and is still destroying his body - complete with examples from medical transcriptions posted here and elsewhere. It's damned scary.

And as I mentioned, I used to think speaking to and guiding youth would be a good role for Joe. And someday it may be. But at present, i think he still has some issues (maturity, etc.) he needs to work on.

 

[Cobblestones]

Great post and excellent summation of what's going on here...

That said, it looks like the discussion has gone "global" with French anti-doping commentator(s) picking it up:

http://www.cyclismag.com/article.php?sid=5781#ancre3

Effet Pappillon

La victoire d’Alexandre Vinokourov dans Liège-Bastogne-Liège pourrait bien avoir fait une victime collatérale en la personne de Levi Leipheimer.
Joe Papp, un ancien coureur cycliste contrôlé positif à la testostérone en 2006, s’en prend en effet au coéquipier de Lance Armstrong. Joe Papp, passé aux aveux, avait été entendu comme témoin dans le procès Landis où il avait rappelé l’efficacité de la testostérone. Depuis, il traite régulièrement du dopage sur « Pappillon », son blog personnel. S’il y a une chose qu’il n’aime pas, c’est qu’on s’en prenne aux repentis comme lui.
Du coup, il n'a pas apprécié que Taylor Phinney qui évolue dans l’équipe Trek Livestrong U23, s’en prenne à Vinokourov en le qualifiant de «tricheur» sur Twitter.
Pour rafraîchir la mémoire de Phinney, Joe Papp s’en est pris à Levi Leipheimer, de l’équipe RadioShack, «grande sœur» de l’équipe Trek Livestrong U23. Il affirme que le coureur américain avait été contrôlé positif à l’éphédrine en 1996 et suspendu trois mois, une information passée aux oubliettes depuis. Pour l’instant, l’intéressé n’a pas réagi.

I think TP should get credit though for whatever discomfort LL feels, if any. Or blame it on The Clinic!

Still no word from USA Cycling (not like I expected any) but if by some strange twist they decide to wade into this by confirming it, we'll pass it along.

Nice pun "effet pappillon" lol

 

[Colm.Murphy]

couple of points:

1. Millar wins races? Apart from De Panne, when did he win last?
2. The selective criticism of implicated riders is the thrust of exposing the sprouting hypocrisy in the young Phinney.
3. The goal was to air the LL positive, and aired it has been. Did you miss something?

I don't think we'll see many comments re pellizotti from the peloton. With his issues tied to the passport, I think the riders might be feeling the scrutiny could lead to them next. I wonder how many riders have taken a pass on transfusions in the last 60-90 days?

 

[joe_papp]

Kind of lends support to the allegation that this was as much about getting your name in print as anything else.

Are you serious? Sorry, but this had nothing to do with getting my name in print and everything to do with expressing unambiguous support for Vino - and by extension every other rider who's come back from a doping ban - in the face of his being attacked in public w/o merit by a compatriot of mine. Taylor Phinney may think that Vino should "go home" but I don't, just like I don't think that any rider who has served his ban and complied with the terms of his suspension should be further hassled by his current or former competitors or the media. Levi Leipheimer, unfortunately for him, provided the example that exposed the (intended or otherwise) hypocrisy of Phinney's rant. And it's because of how high-profile Phinney is, and the success he both has and will achieve, that his position needs to be countered. His words carry weight in the eyes of the public and the media - and yet not everyone agrees with his position.

And as I mentioned, I used to think speaking to and guiding youth would be a good role for Joe. And someday it may be. But at present, i think he still has some issues (maturity, etc.) he needs to work on.

Please feel free to PM me or contact me via email if you have something that you genuinely wish to convey, rather than posting these kind of pseudo-caring messages in public. When one is concerned that another has "issues" and there exists a direct line of communication to the subject of said concern, it's not exactly difficult to reach out to them with your constructive feedback, rather than disingenuously lamenting their faults in the cyclingnews.com forum.

 

[alanshearer]

Are you serious? Sorry, but this had nothing to do with getting my name in print and everything to do with expressing unambiguous support for Vino - and by extension every other rider who's come back from a doping ban - in the face of his being attacked in public w/o merit by a compatriot of mine. Taylor Phinney may think that Vino should "go home" but I don't, just like I don't think that any rider who has served his ban and complied with the terms of his suspension should be further hassled by his current or former competitors or the media. Levi Leipheimer, unfortunately for him, provided the example that exposed the (intended or otherwise) hypocrisy of Phinney's rant. And it's because of how high-profile Phinney is, and the success he both has and will achieve, that his position needs to be countered. His words carry weight in the eyes of the public and the media - and yet not everyone agrees with his position.

I think I read Vino questioning why it was okay for a suspended rider to retorn to the peloton but apparently not okay to win. And while I think he has a point, I understand why people are more skeptical of him than they are of other riders, including other rides who have also come off suspension. Some are put off by his seeming ability to return to the top level so quickly, when many others have had a tougher time. I also recognize that other factors influence people's opinion of Vino, both in and out of the peloton.

Please feel free to PM me or contact me via email if you have something that you genuinely wish to convey, rather than posting these kind of pseudo-caring messages in public. When one is concerned that another has "issues" and there exists a direct line of communication to the subject of said concern, it's not exactly difficult to reach out to them with your constructive feedback, rather than disingenuously lamenting their faults in the cyclingnews.com forum.

PM? Really? So if TP attacks someone in print, he should "be prepared to have his words, motivations and intentions subject to intense scrutiny." But that doesn't apply to you when you attack someone in print?

 

[Bag_O_Wallet]

As per post #152 by Joe

PS. if you have a lot of angry words to say to me, or even semi-critical ones, please send me a PM or an email, and don't hijack the thread to attack me. at this point i think this discussion is pretty well played out, but regardless, you don't do anything to advance the dialogue by reciting that which I (and many others) already know (what I did), but from your unique perspective, driven by your unique feelings. I'm not saying that I don't think you should hate on me, just that it'd be lame to do it in this thread since you could start your own here in the Clinic.

 

[alanshearer]

couple of points:The selective criticism of implicated riders is the thrust of exposing the sprouting hypocrisy in the young Phinney.

So why is TP singled out, when a large portion of the media and the cycling public expressed or has similar feelings? Is it hypocritical to single out TP and not everyone else who has expressed something similar? And again, was Phinney being hyprocritical? Or is there parhaps some other way to characterize his apparent inconsistency? Youthful brashness? Ignorance? Immaturity? Not wanting to bite the hand that's feeding him?

Why not simpley post something like -- TP said "doper" but it should be noted that his own teammate, LL, also served a suspension. Why the need for childish name calling?

The goal was to air the LL positive, and aired it has been. Did you miss something?

Didn't miss anything. But if that was the goal, then why not a simple post like -- LL once tested positive and here's the evidence . . . Why the need to drag a kid who only two years ago was a junior through the mud at the same time?

I don't think we'll see many comments re pellizotti from the peloton. With his issues tied to the passport, I think the riders might be feeling the scrutiny could lead to them next. I wonder how many riders have taken a pass on transfusions in the last 60-90 days?[/QUOTE]