Levi Leipheimer

[Anonymous]

winning magazine went online in december 1996
this is a better link
click top stories, and then december 4th

 

[Neworld]

@Joe Papp – No, it’s all about you. A doper, cheater, liar and criminal needs a few buddies and what better way than becoming a full-blown LA hater. I’ve read your blog and you’re dishonest and selective. Your rant about Taylor is hypocritical. BTW, Taylor speaking out against Vino, which caused this back-lash against him and unnecessary smear of Levi is by any definition omerta.

Actually, by definition it is CONSISTENCY. LA is his own worst enemy and his day is coming.

Having JP give us insider information is of unparalleled importance. TP should pick a lane. Either slag all currently riding known dopers or be silent. Did he make any comments about D. Miller's recent win? Why not? I could go on and on!

DM and AV were dopers. JP was a doper. At least JP has come clean, either intentionally or forced who cares. He now provides historical insight into the darkest ongoing part of a dynamic and difficult sport that I hope we all love. Some of us want to pick and choose who to be 'fanatical' about, regardless of the facts that they are liars, cheats and dopers.

Why don't some of the people who dislike JP or disagree with his comments take their energies and write blogs towards known dopers, or multiGT current cyclists, ask them hard questions and make them prove their innocence? That would be more admirable than dissing someone who trying to elucidate the misery in our sport.

NW

 

[patricknd]

Actually, by definition it is CONSISTENCY. LA is his own worst enemy and his day is coming.

Having JP give us insider information is of unparalleled importance. TP should pick a lane. Either slag all currently riding known dopers or be silent. Did he make any comments about D. Miller's recent win? Why not? I could go on and on!

DM and AV were dopers. JP was a doper. At least JP has come clean, either intentionally or forced who cares. He now provides historical insight into the darkest ongoing part of a dynamic and difficult sport that I hope we all love. Some of us want to pick and choose who to be 'fanatical' about, regardless of the facts that they are liars, cheats and dopers.

Why don't some of the people who dislike JP or disagree with his comments take their energies and write blogs towards known dopers, or multiGT current cyclists, ask them hard questions and make them prove their innocence? That would be more admirable than dissing someone who trying to elucidate the misery in our sport.

NW

prove their innocence? how exactly do you do that?

 

[Neworld]

prove their innocence? how exactly do you do that?

Are you really asking that?

Well, if I was Valverde I would provide my blood (ieNA) and get 2 or 3 independent labs to test my DNA against the blood in OP with the nomenclature "piti" . If it is not the same keep riding. But Valv is NOT allowing the analysis, why?

If I was LA I would allow Caitlan (?Spelling) to test me as initially touted. Also, I would allow the urine from the 1999 samples 'discovered' by L'Equipe to be retested. I could go on more about LA but that is a small start.

NW

 

[patricknd]

Are you really asking that?

Well, if I was Valverde I would provide my blood (ieNA) and get 2 or 3 independent labs to test my DNA against the blood in OP with the nomenclature "piti" . If it is not the same keep riding. But Valv is NOT allowing the analysis, why?

If I was LA I would allow Caitlan (?Spelling) to test me as initially touted. Also, I would allow the urine from the 1999 samples 'discovered' by L'Equipe to be retested. I could go on more about LA but that is a small start.

NW

okay we're on the same page. i was wondering how you thought he was going to get around the dna issue, now i get what you were saying.

 

[Escarabajo]

prove their innocence? how exactly do you do that?

Post a blood profile and the power files. That would be a good start.

 

[patricknd]

Post a blood profile and the power files. That would be a good start.

won't work. those that want to believe will, those that don't will say it's faked.

 

[Neworld]

won't work. those that want to believe will, those that don't will say it's faked.

I bet that you and I alone, with bad hangovers, could generate 30-40 good ideas to help athletes prove their innocence.

As an aside, I would love to disprove the self-serving rumours of some athletes' VO2Max, lung capacities and Cardiac output absolute values. This could help in relating their true values to their climbing efforts relative to Watt outputs.

NW

 

[alanshearer]

I started this thread about Levi's positive test because Taylor Phinney, who - regardless of age should realize that if he attacks in print a rider like Vino, he should be prepared to have his words, motivations and intentions subject to intense scrutiny - ... well, he attacked in print a rider like Vino, and in doing so exposed his (TP's) own hypocrisy by not offering the same condemnations of his RS pseudo-teammates, especially L.L.

And I'm not about to cut him a break when Lance Armstrong is an informal mentor of his. And specifically to avoid a scenario where people in the future have difficulty locating information on L.L's positive test, I started this thread, and am doing the laborious work now of getting confirmation in an official form from the stakeholders so that it can't be disappeared into the non-internet dustbin of history again.

Again, how is Taylor a hypocrite when you admit that he may have been, and may still be, ignorant of Levi's past? (I suspect the chances he was aware of it were extremely low.) And on the slight chance he was aware, is it necessary for a rider to condemn each and every instance, past and present, of doping, including teammates and others responsible for his paycheck, in order to avoid the label of hypocrite? If so, that's an unrealistic expectation, especially of a 20-year-old that, like most 20-year-olds, still has much to learn and is prone to running off his mouth (or in this case, tweet). How is his reckless and injudicious tweet any different that your careless tossing about the "hypocrite" accusation?

I used to think it would be great if you could speak to aspiring junior cyclists -- that they could possibly learn from your mistakes and be better prepared for the pressures they might face. I tend to think that you still have some issues to resolve before you could provide much positive to them. That you're really not much more mature than a 20-year-old Taylor Phinney.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

.I used to think it would be great if you could speak to aspiring junior cyclists -- that they could possibly learn from your mistakes and be better prepared for the pressures they might face. I tend to think that you still have some issues to resolve before you could provide much positive to them. That you're really not much more mature than a 20-year-old Taylor Phinney.

Actually Alan, if you do some digging you'll find that JP has spoken to young cyclists, and other athletes about the horrors of doping. He's also made many posts, and many blog writings, and spoken many times on how it's ruined his life, and is still destroying his body - complete with examples from medical transcriptions posted here and elsewhere. It's damned scary.

I'm not going to fully interpret Joe, or anyone else on here that's been critical of Taylor on this issue, but it does seem to me that if someone, anyone, in cycling is going to open their mouth on such a hot issue, they better be prepared to take a stand. If Taylor Phinney is truly anti-doping, then I fully applaud him, and would encourage him to speak up every chance he gets. But to be selective about it is not the way to go about it in these times.

You have to also remember that our sport's history is riddled with riders who spoke out and said they were against doping, and later shown to be doping themselves. And I don't mean JP. This is true most recently with Bernard Kohl as well speaking out before being caught. Even Richard Virenque spoke out against doping. The difference to me is that despite how deep of a hole they all dug, riders like Papp, or Kohl, have despite their lies and misgivings, actually did speak out and reveal everything they knew to authorities in as true of effort to combat doping as possible (though Joe's case is still ongoing). While Taylor Phinney is still young, and yes, I'd say naive, if he is as principled as he implies, not only will he remain critical of all dopers and doping, agree to and support all doping controls, but set examples in both those words and actions in the future. Time will tell if he ends up true to that, slides into the omerta like the vast majority of other riders, or ends up where Kohl, or Virenque did. If he does the former, even with no results, he'll be revered in my eyes nearly at the level of his father, who was an absolute hero of mine when I was young.

 

[Ski Coach]

There is a deep problem with all of this that goes far beyond doping and is far worse. Witch hunting - the requirement of individuals to have to "prove their innocence" has no place in our civilisation. There is an insidious inclination for human nature to go towards witch hunting and that is an issue a million times more degrading and damaging than any doping. Perhaps such issues of fundamental human rights are lost on generations that never had to fight to establish them. Sure "doping" is a problem - but loss of human rights is an even greater problem and it's about time that cycling woke up to this, instead of being sucked into the pits of political correctness.

Doping is an obvious issue but other ways need to be found to deal with it. Law and inexact science and suspicion are not good enough or appropriate.

Law in the hands of fools is a dangerous weapon - Hitler and Stalin come to mind - so don't put it on a pedestal instead of our athletes.

And yes, the original subject was that it was wrong to criticise Vino and not Levi - well two wrongs don't make a right. Let's not critcise anyone in particular and let's point the finger at the system instead. If you want to keep the moral high ground this is how you do it.

http://britishamericanskiing.blogspot.com/

 

[Jonathan]

Sure "doping" is a problem - but loss of human rights is an even greater problem and it's about time that cycling woke up to this, instead of being sucked into the pits of political correctness.

Doping regulations and sanctions do not violate human rights.

 

[Fred Thistle]

Actually Alan, if you do some digging you'll find that JP has spoken to young cyclists, and other athletes about the horrors of doping. He's also made many posts, and many blog writings, and spoken many times on how it's ruined his life,

I am sure he loves the lime light

that's probably why many dope in the first place- It's part of why I like to win too. But I, and those who truly love racing pushbikes value other things more than just the limelight- things such as the drama of the struggle, endeavor, suffering pain and overcoming.... and integrity. The truth of the game needs integrity.

I don't wanna dig into the life of this cheat and find out how he maintains his 'fix' of limelight.
Impressive how much more than his 15minutes a cheat can wrangle... or is it merely pathetic?

 

[bianchigirl]

So ski coach, you wouldn't defend the transparency of putting information in the public domain? Personally I'll save my ire over witch hunts and human rights abuses for more deserving cases than bald American sports millionaires.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Do you really think there's that much lime light shining on him? Or that it's his primary reason for speaking out against doping? Is that what you truly think?

There is a deep problem with all of this that goes far beyond doping and is far worse. Witch hunting - the requirement of individuals to have to "prove their innocence" has no place in our civilisation.

We're talking about a sporting event, not societal morals and governing laws. No one is forcing anyone to race a bike.

Testing has been shown time and time and time again to be painfully lacking in catching cheaters. Anyone who has been around the sport long enough knows just how much of a problem this really is. As has been stated by myself and many others many times, the problem with testing has almost never been the false positives, of which must be a near 0% failure rate, but false negatives, which as riders such as Kohl, Papp and others have painfully pointed out has about a 99% likelihood of failure. Translation: You don't dope, you have nothing to worry about. You dope, there's a 99% chance you won't get caught. With these obvious factors, and the fact that doping has decimated the sport, certainly as far as fairness and justice in sports goes, it stands to reason that fans, especially the most loyal fans, are asking and expecting the athletes to step up. This is why organizations such as BikePure exists.

To ask riders to take a stand, or to ask riders such as Alejandro Valverde to show he's innocent just as he says by submitting his DNA to compare it to the blood doping bags with his name attached, or to ask Lance Armstrong to agree to an independent re-test of his 1999 Tour de France samples for EPO is not a witch hunt, but quite understanding considering the hell we've been through.

This is precisely why Taylor Phinney is being called out. Perhaps it is too much finger pointing, but if he is going to speak out against doping, then in these trying times he can't pick and choose with where he points his finger either.

 

[D Avoid]

I bet that you and I alone, with bad hangovers, could generate 30-40 good ideas to help athletes prove their innocence.

As an aside, I would love to disprove the self-serving rumours of some athletes' VO2Max, lung capacities and Cardiac output absolute values. This could help in relating their true values to their climbing efforts relative to Watt outputs.

NW

Should that not be,"improve their innocence"?

Seems more fun that way.

 

[woodburn]

Hog/Armstrong riders who admitted doping or tested positive

Stephan Swart
JV
Manuel Beltrán
Ivan Basso
Gianpaolo Mondini
Frankie Andreau
Tyler Hamilton
Benoît Joachim
David Clinger
Roberto Heras
Floyd Landis
Kirk O'Bee
Lance Armstrong
Levi Leipheimer


And a bunch more (Jemison, Hincapie, Baranowski, livingston) who "Never tested positive"

If you include Basso, what about Kloeden?

 

[Fred Thistle]

Do you really think there's that much lime light shining on him? Or that it's his primary reason for speaking out against doping? Is that what you truly think?

enough evidently- this forum is just a small energy supply.
He probably got hooked after such a huge hit at the Floyd trial

anti drug presentations prob make him feel real important


that is absolutely what I think

 

[Ferminal]

If you include Basso, what about Kloeden?

Klöden hasn't ever 1) Been sanctioned, 2) Tested positive, 3) Admitted to doping.

I think they need to tick one of the boxes to make the list?

 

[Polish]

winning magazine went online in december 1996
this is a better link
click top stories, and then december 4th

Thank you for that link, TeamSkyFan!
I bookmarked it for Old Times sake.

The magazine brings back memories...I believe it folded soon after.
Not the same after Maynard left?

Anyway, I find it interesting that in 1996, that INCREDIBLE Dopey year, the only blurb about doping is an amateur using ephedrine.

Can you imagine if Taylor Phinney had spoken out against Dopers in 1996?
He would have been SQUISHED like a bug. Blacklisted

Fast Forwad 14 years....it is wonderful that young riders like Taylor can now Speak Out without fear of retribution. Well, they may get "powned" and pummeled on the interwebs by a bunch of hypocritical old ladies swinging their cheesy handbags - but that is hardly hurtful lol.

Omerta has been replaced by Velveeta. Boo.

Too bad there was not a team like Trek-Livestrong back in 1996 to help the young men enter the sport.

 

[buckwheat]

Just a babe in the woods.....

Again, how is Taylor a hypocrite when you admit that he may have been, and may still be, ignorant of Levi's past? (I suspect the chances he was aware of it were extremely low.) And on the slight chance he was aware, is it necessary for a rider to condemn each and every instance, past and present, of doping, including teammates and others responsible for his paycheck, in order to avoid the label of hypocrite? If so, that's an unrealistic expectation, especially of a 20-year-old that, like most 20-year-olds, still has much to learn and is prone to running off his mouth (or in this case, tweet). How is his reckless and injudicious tweet any different that your careless tossing about the "hypocrite" accusation?

I used to think it would be great if you could speak to aspiring junior cyclists -- that they could possibly learn from your mistakes and be better prepared for the pressures they might face. I tend to think that you still have some issues to resolve before you could provide much positive to them. That you're really not much more mature than a 20-year-old Taylor Phinney.

I'm sure TP just made a youthful, rash decision when he was hired away from Slipstream.

Prabably didn't even talk to his parents about it. How could they have counseled him anyway. Kids these days.....

 

[pedaling squares]

Too bad there was not a team like Trek-Livestrong back in 1996 to help the young men enter the sport.

Well there was the US development team before that, but there is some evidence that for those young men to enter the sport they had to let a needle enter their buttocks. You know, vitamins and "extract of cortisone" and all.

 

[Polish]

Well there was the US development team before that, but there is some evidence that for those young men to enter the sport they had to let a needle enter their buttocks. You know, vitamins and "extract of cortisone" and all.

To think that the Trek-LiveStrong U23 Team is comparable to development teams of the 80's and 90's is naive lol. Times have changed, thank goodness.

Speaking of naivety - to think Taylor Phinney is naive is about cycling is hilarious. He grew up eating/drinking/sleeping cycling with his parents Connie and Davis. Taylor was sitting on King Eddy's lap when most kids his age were still sitting on Santa's.The kid has been around the block a few times lol.

Taylor's current Boss at Trek-LiveStrong is Axel Merckx. The Trek-LiveStrong development squad could probably give many development squads in France and Belgium a run for their money grrrr.

Maybe someday when Taylor is really mature, he can begin wearing a
"PHinneyPHorever" jersey with a sublimated Taylor GHRRR face on it?

 

[pedaling squares]

To think that the Trek-LiveStrong U23 Team is comparable to development teams of the 80's and 90's is naive lol. Times have changed, thank goodness.

Speaking of naivety - to think Taylor Phinney is naive is about cycling is hilarious. He grew up eating/drinking/sleeping cycling with his parents Connie and Davis. Taylor was sitting on King Eddy's lap when most kids his age were still sitting on Santa's.The kid has been around the block a few times lol.

Taylor's current Boss at Trek-LiveStrong is Axel Merckx. The Trek-LiveStrong development squad could probably give many development squads in France and Belgium a run for their money grrrr.

Maybe someday when Taylor is really mature, he can begin wearing a
"PHinneyPHorever" jersey with a sublimated Taylor GHRRR face on it?

Hey, I'll never question his pedigree, nor his ability to ride a bike. I, like others, just wonder what the hell he's doing singling Vino out as a doper. Especially when, as you say, he knows all about cycling. All about retroactive TUE's, the six samples from '99, Levi's suspension for doping, etc. You're damn right he's not naive, so why does he reserve his contempt for one man?

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Too bad there was not a team like Trek-Livestrong back in 1996 to help the young men enter the sport.

What makes you so strongly believe that Trek-Livestrong is protecting riders from being exposed to doping practices, and encouraging them to stay clean?