Levi Leipheimer

[alanshearer]

As per post #152 by Joe

PS. if you have a lot of angry words to say to me, or even semi-critical ones, please send me a PM or an email, and don't hijack the thread to attack me. at this point i think this discussion is pretty well played out, but regardless, you don't do anything to advance the dialogue by reciting that which I (and many others) already know (what I did), but from your unique perspective, driven by your unique feelings. I'm not saying that I don't think you should hate on me, just that it'd be lame to do it in this thread since you could start your own here in the Clinic.

In other words, if you're going to question my motivations, etc., underlying this thread, do it elsewhere (preferably off the record) instead of here where it might be directly relevant.

 

[pedaling squares]

So why is TP singled out, . . . Why the need to drag a kid who only two years ago was a junior through the mud at the same time?

Alan, I don't think he's being dragged through the mud. I think he's being held accountable for his public statements about Vino. Yes he's young, but he's not a kid any longer. Many men his age have careers, children, and/or responsibilities far beyond racing a bike. My point is that Taylor is an adult who made the choice to call another rider a doper in a very public forum, and the choice to suggest that that rider go home. Some fans are questioning his choice to focus on one rider, and not others. Perfectly reasonable questions really.

 

[Fred Thistle]

Alan, I don't think he's being dragged through the mud. I think ....

in this forum young phinney IS getting muddied. It has been alleged he is part of the whole LA / Bruyneel conspiracy

however
An innocent might well hold the views he expressed- i share those views
but
A cheat might say the same thing (ala Dekker etc etc)


when do we stop accusing ?
Are we so frightened of becoming a fanboy of a cheat?

...or is it sour grapes... that we aint that good?

for some it's an excuse to cheat- beware the club racer who claims 'they're all on it'.

cos not all of them are

 

[luckyboy]

in this forum young phinney IS getting muddied. It has been alleged he is part of the whole LA / Bruyneel conspiracy

You know he rides for Livestrong U23 right?

 

[Bag_O_Wallet]

The only response thus far, received Friday 4/30/2010 at 3:00PM from Andrea Smith @ USA Cycling:

Hi Joe-
That was quite a while ago. I’ll see if I can look into it and let you know.

-Andrea

If it's been retained, there are 4 likely scenarios. 1) it's been transferred to a separate organization for permanent storage; 2) it's forgotten/lost somewhere off-site for long term/low cost storage; or 3) it's squirreled away in an overflowing filing cabinet/basement/attic; 4) it's stashed in some retiree's garage.

Not sure if the USAC is part of some government structure... if so, you might be able to access through some sort of archive or government information request. Again, not sure... I'm from Canada.

 

[alanshearer]

Alan, I don't think he's being dragged through the mud. I think he's being held accountable for his public statements about Vino. Yes he's young, but he's not a kid any longer. Many men his age have careers, children, and/or responsibilities far beyond racing a bike. My point is that Taylor is an adult who made the choice to call another rider a doper in a very public forum, and the choice to suggest that that rider go home. Some fans are questioning his choice to focus on one rider, and not others. Perfectly reasonable questions really.

While many his age are responsible, they are also the exceptions. I think most 20-year-olds behave little differently than high schoolers.

As I mentioned, it's one thing to point out TP's inconsistency, but it's quite another to call it hypocracy (when there's are numerous reasons to justify the inconsistency), make fun of his dad, call him "His Twitterness," laugh at jokes about him being up Armstrongs's ***, etc.

It seems like Joe as much publicity about his allegations as possible, and he thought the best way to do it was at TP's expense.

 

[alanshearer]

You know he rides for Livestrong U23 right?

QED for some, I guess.

 

[Fred Thistle]

You know he rides for Livestrong U23 right?

Yeah... but just cos you work in the automotive industry for GM or Goodyear doesn't mean that you personally engage in conspiracy to damage/destroy public transport networks.

Why wouldn't Taylor Phinney be as talented as his Dad?... with the added advantage of KNOWING rather than hoping that he can become legend.

To get back on track- Leipheimer's positive is a minor offence- possibly even an accidental incident.

What stinks is the very real cover-up on Wikipedia and beyond... so my gut says: Leipheimer GUILTY

 

[elizab]

alanshearer, I've missed some pages so if it's been covered, sorry.
I think the hypocrisy for which Phinney is being called out on is valid. If I can make an analogy: Phinney being vocal and critical about Vino would be like one of Barry Bonds's underling teammates ranting about what a cheat Mark McGwire was all the while remaining silent on Mr. Bonds who has "never tested positive". Do you get it? Same darn difference.
And unless Vino (et al ) ever admitted guilt, there lies the difference between him and Millar and all the others who have admitted their wrongdoing instead of the lie & deny tactic.

 

[Fred Thistle]

alanshearer, I've missed some pages so if it's been covered, sorry.

why bother?
saying sorry or saying anything?

I all following this thread well appreciates your POV though I'm sure few are interested in an opinion proffered in so acknowledged ignorance (you could remedy that by doing more reading than opinionating)

 

[luckyboy]

Yeah... but just cos you work in the automotive industry for GM or Goodyear doesn't mean that you personally engage in conspiracy to damage/destroy public transport networks.

Why wouldn't Taylor Phinney be as talented as his Dad?... with the added advantage of KNOWING rather than hoping that he can become legend.

To get back on track- Leipheimer's positive is a minor offence- possibly even an accidental incident.

What stinks is the very real cover-up on Wikipedia and beyond... so my gut says: Leipheimer GUILTY

You need more than talent to compete in the very big races nowadays. Well, since the 90s it seems.

What does the 'knowing rather than hoping' bit mean? Natural progression from his team is to RetirementShack.

Well he was guilty seeing as he was suspended..

 

[elizab]

To get back on track- Leipheimer's positive is a minor offence- possibly even an accidental incident.

Does that mean Frankie's use of epo didn't count because he wasn't on a full blown program because what he did at that time could've been construed as the "bare minimum" i.e. just to get by?

 

[Fred Thistle]

What does the 'knowing rather than hoping' bit mean? Natural progression from his team is to RetirementShack.

Go watch StarWars or get religion.

only a non-racer wouldn't understand that.

 

[Runitout]

To get back on track- Leipheimer's positive is a minor offence- possibly even an accidental incident.

Is this the very same Fred Thistle who just days ago was abusing others personally for doping, now undergoing a quick transformation into moral relativism?

I'm sure it was an accident - that he was caught.

Why are some dopers being treated with kid gloves and open embrace, and the others being spat on and treated like a wife-stealing leper with rabies?

 

[Fred Thistle]

Is this the very same Fred Thistle who just days ago was abusing others personally for doping, now undergoing a quick transformation into moral relativism?

You are trolling me right?
There is a big difference between a one off positive for cough syrup and being a convicted user and drug supplier.

I refute that I was abusing anyone- Truth may hurt.

Your problem is your need for an answer so you can be right.

To be frank I wouldn't be surprised in LL was on it and had been for years- But i don't depend on it for any of my vitriolic spats like some.

You are either a troll or incomprehending of rational.
You are ignored

 

[Polish]

Does that mean Frankie's use of epo didn't count because he wasn't on a full blown program because what he did at that time could've been construed as the "bare minimum" i.e. just to get by?

Frankie taking EPO as a Pro earned him a spot on the WIKI Doper page.

If Frankie used ephedra as an amateur in an amateur race it would not be listed on the WIKI Doper page. There are no ephedra using amateurs on the WIKI Doper pages for non Olympic/World events

If Levi becomes the first amateur ephedra bust listed on the WIKI doper page, it will be there as a monument to Spite & Jealousy. Well, maybe not a monument - but a little statue at least.

 

[luckyboy]

Go watch StarWars or get religion.

only a non-racer wouldn't understand that.

What? He knows he can become a legend because he'll get on a great programme at RS? He knows he can become a legend because of his fathers genes? His dad won two stages at the Tour and came 3rd in K-B-K. He may be a legend in US cycling, but come on..

 

[elizab]

If Frankie used ephedra as an amateur in an amateur race it would not be listed on the WIKI Doper page. There are no ephedra using amateurs on the WIKI Doper pages for non Olympic/World events

Which brings up something rather interesting - that an athlete would dope as an amateur but as a pro would become clean. And if someone is taking *cough syrup*, I'd presume they were a little under the weather and not physically up to par in order to win a big race by a big margin...

 

[adambarnes]

Frankie taking EPO as a Pro earned him a spot on the WIKI Doper page.

If Frankie used ephedra as an amateur in an amateur race it would not be listed on the WIKI Doper page. There are no ephedra using amateurs on the WIKI Doper pages for non Olympic/World events

If Levi becomes the first amateur ephedra bust listed on the WIKI doper page, it will be there as a monument to Spite & Jealousy. Well, maybe not a monument - but a little statue at least.

the reason there are no amateurs doping in amateur races listed is that there are none really worth discussing, until now. who cares if some local amateur racer got caught in a local amateur race? nobody. however, if that local racer went pro, had a nice CV of wins and is known around the traps as a nice guy who is clean, well his amateur doping conviction is absolutely worthy of an entry and discussion.

 

[Anonymous]

If Levi becomes the first amateur ephedra bust listed on the WIKI doper page, it will be there as a monument to Spite & Jealousy. Well, maybe not a monument - but a little statue at least.

who is trying to add levi to the wiki doper page

 

[Polish]

Which brings up something rather interesting - that an athlete would dope as an amateur but as a pro would become clean. And if someone is taking *cough syrup*, I'd presume they were a little under the weather and not physically up to par in order to win a big race by a big margin...

elizab, sometimes getting caught makes a big difference.
You can turn over a new leaf. A second chance at life. An epiphany!

Being Scared Straight

Once Bitten, Twice Shy

Just Say No!

 

[Polish]

I love it. It's the Chewbacca Defence.

"Here is the silly monkey! Look at the silly monkey!"

A doping bust is a doping bust. Doesn't matter if he was paid to win or not. Or what shoes he was wearing. Or whether or not he had Cornflakes for brekky.

I disagree.

Asthmatic French amateur Pierre Eternuer was one day late to file an extension on a LEGIT Theraputic Use Exemption.

Late because he stopped to visit his sick mother at the hospital on his way to do volunteer work at the orphanage. BUSTED!

Lance doing EPO at the 1999 Tour de France and going on to become a multimultimillionaire. BUSTED!

A doping bust is a doping bust?
I do not think so.....
(ok, both those scenarios are fictional - but you catch my drift?)

Or how about the dopers who get caught and rat out their team mates in order to save their own skin. A bust is a bust?

Or how about dopers who get caught and then become dealers of life threatening PEDS. A bust is a bust?

Or how about the dopers turned dealers who get caught AGAIN and then actually rat out some of the very riders they sold the life threatening PEDS to in order to save their own skin. A bust is a bust?

(ok, all those are fictional too...but a BUST is not a BUST)

Levi's ephedra misuse was truly tragic and unfortunate.
But it really is not a BFD.

 

[Runitout]

I disagree.

Asthmatic French amateur Pierre Eternuer was one day late to file an extension on a LEGIT Theraputic Use Exemption.

Late because he stopped to visit his sick mother at the hospital on his way to do volunteer work at the orphanage. BUSTED!

Lance doing EPO at the 1999 Tour de France and going on to become a multimultimillionaire. BUSTED!

A doping bust is a doping bust?
I do not think so.....
(ok, both those scenarios are fictional - but you catch my drift?)

Or how about the dopers who get caught and rat out their team mates in order to save their own skin. A bust is a bust?

Or how about dopers who get caught and then become dealers of life threatening PEDS. A bust is a bust?

Or how about the dopers turned dealers who get caught AGAIN and then actually rat out some of the very riders they sold the life threatening PEDS to in order to save their own skin. A bust is a bust?

(ok, all those are fictional too...but a BUST is not a BUST)

Levi's ephedra misuse was truly tragic and unfortunate.
But it really is not a BFD.

As you are quite aware, the point I was responding to was that because Leipheimer's positive occurred when he was amateur, that somehow meant that it was not newsworthy. I disagree with that notion.

As for the hypotheticals? They go to sentencing protocols. That's another debate.

I wouldn't call Leipheimer's positive 'tragic' though. He doped and was caught. He served a nominal suspension and it has almost been forgotten. There is a complete absence of tragedy here.

 

[Ferminal]

couple of points:

1. Millar wins races? Apart from De Panne, when did he win last?
2. The selective criticism of implicated riders is the thrust of exposing the sprouting hypocrisy in the young Phinney.
3. The goal was to air the LL positive, and aired it has been. Did you miss something?

I don't think we'll see many comments re pellizotti from the peloton. With his issues tied to the passport, I think the riders might be feeling the scrutiny could lead to them next. I wonder how many riders have taken a pass on transfusions in the last 60-90 days?

Vuelta TT last year... Can't remember before that though!

 

[flicker]

sorry in 96 I was kinda busy. Don't care about ephedra. bogus drug! real weak