Levi Leipheimer

[blackcat]

1. Millar wins races? Apart from De Panne, when did he win last?

Vuelta TT last year... Can't remember before that though!

Vuelta, think that was 08. Not sure. Dauphine prologue I think, not sure on that, last year. Second in Paris Nice prologue in 07.

Then he absolutely ripped both chrono's in 2008 Tour. Top 3 on first, and think top 5 on last, or atleast top 10.

Think in 2008 Tour, he was target tested the first 10 days, numerous times. Millar is also animating breaks in Giro and Tour.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

I'm having trouble getting too worked up about this. Ephedra in 1996?
I can't believe people put crap like that in their bodies, but that's a bit different from EPO/HGH/etc.

But, if we're going to talk about Zirbel getting 2 years for DHEA, then why not talk about Levi getting 3 months for ephedra?

 

[Ferminal]

Vuelta, think that was 08. Not sure. Dauphine prologue I think, not sure on that, last year. Second in Paris Nice prologue in 07.

Then he absolutely ripped both chrono's in 2008 Tour. Top 3 on first, and think top 5 on last, or atleast top 10.

Think in 2008 Tour, he was target tested the first 10 days, numerous times. Millar is also animating breaks in Giro and Tour.

Whereyabin

Vuelta was last year, remember the sword!

Big achievement to do well in those 2008 ones against chargers like Schumacher and Kirchen.

 

[Oldman]

As you are quite aware, the point I was responding to was that because Leipheimer's positive occurred when he was amateur, that somehow meant that it was not newsworthy. I disagree with that notion.

As for the hypotheticals? They go to sentencing protocols. That's another debate.

I wouldn't call Leipheimer's positive 'tragic' though. He doped and was caught. He served a nominal suspension and it has almost been forgotten. There is a complete absence of tragedy here.

He was caught for ephedra.

 

[bobbins]

Ephedra is a great drug for use in a criterum, opens up the airways and acts as a stimulant so it's use can hardly be called tragic.

He's done the crime and done the time, why is it people want this particular piece of history erased? Isn't that what the North Koreans and Chinese do? I know that Hollywood likes amending wartime history but to try to erase the doping ban of Cousin Its mini-me is a little bizarre!

 

[blackcat]

Whereyabin

Vuelta was last year, remember the sword!

Big achievement to do well in those 2008 ones against chargers like Schumacher and Kirchen.

yep, he was second in the first chrono in Vuelta 2009, won the second.

Third in the Dauphine chrono in 2009.

Won Paris Nice prologue in 2007.

Third and fifth in the chronos in 2008 Tour de France.

won De Panne and Crit International chronos 2010.

memory needs a little work

 

[Roland Rat]

To those querying why Phinney is being singled out, (if he is at all), I believe a lot of it comes from him being "The Next Big Thing". We have had enough of the Armstrong era, and Phinney could be the next dominant US rider. We (and in particular the Americans) do not want another 20 years of another Armstrong. If Phinney is groomed by LA and follows his route, we have another 20 years of LA toxicity infecting the sport. 20 years is a long time, by when many of us will grow old, have children who might want to enter the sport etc...

We're nearing the end of the LA era for good. Many need closure that the LA era is over, finito, no more. A great way to get this closure would be for LA's heir apparent to disown LA and his methods. Instead, we're getting the heir apparent obviously drinking the Kool Aid and so many of us fear it's only a matter of time before history repeats itself. And the last thing we need is a repeat of this particular history.

 

[craig1985]

Nice to see you again blackcat. Now they say you should never cross a black cat, so does that mean Wigans will have some bad fortune at the Giro?

 

[blackcat]

Nice to see you again blackcat. Now they say you should never cross a black cat, so does that mean Wigans will have some bad fortune at the Giro?

did Wigans cross me Craig?

 

[blackcat]

To those querying why Phinney is being singled out, (if he is at all), I believe a lot of it comes from him being "The Next Big Thing". We have had enough of the Armstrong era, and Phinney could be the next dominant US rider. We (and in particular the Americans) do not want another 20 years of another Armstrong. If Phinney is groomed by LA and follows his route, we have another 20 years of LA toxicity infecting the sport. 20 years is a long time, by when many of us will grow old, have children who might want to enter the sport etc...

We're nearing the end of the LA era for good. Many need closure that the LA era is over, finito, no more. A great way to get this closure would be for LA's heir apparent to disown LA and his methods. Instead, we're getting the heir apparent obviously drinking the Kool Aid and so many of us fear it's only a matter of time before history repeats itself. And the last thing we need is a repeat of this particular history.

logical flaw - LA's heir apparent will have to use the same methods LA used. No heir of LA can disown the methods of LA, except in rhetoric.

And by disowning methods in rhetoric, you are mimicking the rhetoric of LA.

this is not meant as a reference to Taylor Phinney

 

[blackcat]

Craig I am one of the guys here, not a GB homie, that thinks Wigans will podium this year at the Tour. I am bullish on Wigans. He will make the podium.

 

[BroDeal]

Craig I am one of the guys here, not a GB homie, that thinks Wigans will podium this year at the Tour. I am bullish on Wigans. He will make the podium.

I think Blackcat has been smoking a bit too much catnip. Wigans will crash and burn in the mountains.

 

[blackcat]

I think Blackcat has been smoking a bit too much catnip. Wigans will crash and burn in the mountains.

yeah, we disagree on Wigans potential.

 

[usedtobefast]

yeah, we disagree on Wigans potential.

potential to face plant?

 

[joe_papp]

PM? Really? So if TP attacks someone in print, he should "be prepared to have his words, motivations and intentions subject to intense scrutiny." But that doesn't apply to you when you attack someone in print?

If you have some many of constructive feedback you'd like to provide me with in order to address the issues that you've identified, it's simply common courtesy to take that discussion off-list so that the readers of the thread interested in Levi and Taylor and Vino and cheating aren't forced to suffer-through a therapy session. Otherwise, if you don't, you're being disingenuous, flitting between topics like a butterfly and just trying to stir up a commotion.

Oh, and you don't have to subject my public words to intense scrutiny since you can communicate directly with me if you really want to.

 

[joe_papp]

It was the US National Championships...

the reason there are no amateurs doping in amateur races listed is that there are none really worth discussing, until now. who cares if some local amateur racer got caught in a local amateur race? nobody. however, if that local racer went pro, had a nice CV of wins and is known around the traps as a nice guy who is clean, well his amateur doping conviction is absolutely worthy of an entry and discussion.

Don't forget, this happened in the US National Criterium Championship, which is a very prestigious race and which was contested on one of the hardest course in the US in 1996. According to my 14-year-old log of the race, no more than 40 or so finished out of close to 200 starters (I was in the third small group on the road, crossing about 25th).

How many elite (Amateur) criterium champions in the USA went on to professional contracts - quite a few, probably more than half?

It's not like it was a local training crit at which he got popped.

 

[Oldman]

Don't forget, this happened in the US National Criterium Championship, which is a very prestigious race and which was contested on one of the hardest course in the US in 1996. According to my 14-year-old log of the race, no more than 40 or so finished out of close to 200 starters (I was in the third small group on the road, crossing about 25th).

How many elite (Amateur) criterium champions in the USA went on to professional contracts - quite a few, probably more than half?

It's not like it was a local training crit at which he got popped.

That and you don't have to go on to a Pro career to profit. Again, the local scandal here involved a former Senior Natz Crit champion (not a pro), multiple Master's Natz Champ, World's track champion and World record holder (UCI removed). There are incentives in the minds of the competitors.

 

[BikeCentric]

sorry in 96 I was kinda busy. Don't care about ephedra. bogus drug! real weak

I used to take ephedra for college lacrosse before the NCAA put it on their banned substances list. It's a very powerfull stimulant actually.

 

[joy118118]

TP is not the exceptional case. Other USA younge cyclists behavior like him.

It is just on some level patriotism.

 

[Ferminal]

oops, so frei admits doping whilst astana's internal anti-doping program was run by the highly touted damsgaard ?

i tought damsgaard was so good that he even now got a job with the uci.

who else did he miss ? oh wait, i know, he missed gusev, whose life got destroyed by damsgaard/bruyneel even though gusev got vindicated by cas.
i never liked that damsgaard guy and now im starting to doubt his professionalism.
added:
lance should have hired damsgaard in stead of catlin and we all would be happy happy now that lance had not broken his own promise to the world.

Great news on Gusev, can't wait to see him back.

 

[Eyjafjallajokull]

I used to take ephedra for college lacrosse before the NCAA put it on their banned substances list. It's a very powerfull stimulant actually.

When you say "very powerful stimulant" do you just mean more powerful than caffiene? As stimulants go, how powerful does it rank?

 

[BikeCentric]

When you say "very powerful stimulant" do you just mean more powerful than caffiene? As stimulants go, how powerful does it rank?

Way more powerfull than caffiene. It feels like you basically just chugged 10 espressos. Although I've never actually done that, LOL. Caffiene and ephedra are the only stimulants I've ever tried so I don't have anything else to compare it to. It's probably fairly weak-sauce compared to other stimulants but banned is banned.

Basically my entire lacrosse team was using it and our head trainer gave us a big talk about how it was going on the NCAA banned list and had been linked to the heat-stroke deaths of a few football players and she wanted us all to stop taking it immediately, so we did.

Back then ephedra was an ingredient in Red Bull and Hansens energy drinks although I'm pretty sure they took it out as it went on WADA and NCAA banned lists.

 

[Sydney Sider]

If he was ignorant of it, then how can he be hypocritical?

One of my pet peeves is the careless accusation of "hypocrite," especially when you have to assume a lot of facts not in evidence to get there. It can't be simply applied whenever what someone says or does in inconsistent with or contradicts what they may have said or done (or didn't say or do) on another occasion. Otherwise, we're all hypocrites. Joe, are you immune from the accusation?

And I'm curious why you have it in for Taylor? Injudicious tweets? What level of maturity do you demand from a 20-year-old?

While i can understand how your saying something from so many years ago is irrelavant and Taylor may have been ignorant of Levi's past but Joe also mentioned a Radioshack rider caught only a couple of weeks ago and there is no way Taylor could be ignorant of this .

Taylor also showed his ignorance by his responses to Dim Spaces Tweet about the famous Texan , im sure he knows bout the 99 Tour samples.

So Taylors logic should also mean that he believes Rasmussen should be allowed to continue racing as he never tested positive , he cant have it one way for a team mate and the opposite for a competitor

 

[Kender]

While i can understand how your saying something from so many years ago is irrelavant and Taylor may have been ignorant of Levi's past but Joe also mentioned a Radioshack rider caught only a couple of weeks ago and there is no way Taylor could be ignorant of this .

everyone keeps bringing this up

but here's the thing. he criticised vino for coming back and winning. he can't criticise the RS rider for coming back and winning because he hasn't yet.

he probably didnt know about levi. however there is no way he's ignorant of some other risers who have returned from suspension and won races (david millar for one)

 

[adambarnes]

or valverde - no suspension there but obviously involved