Liège-Bastogne-Liège 2023, one day monument, April 23 (men's)

[Rob5091]

Chapeau to Remco for the win, Once Pogacar crashed out (he just dodged one on Wednesday too) there was an air of inevitability about the outcome. QS team did well too, but what was the idea behind Tratnik going up the road?

 

[Extinction]

I'm sorry. But this is madness. They haven't even raced each other recently. And tour always, and forever, is bigger than the giro.

Remco is amazing, but do not tell me that winning liege and the giro puts him above Pog.

RvV>liege
Tour>giro

not to mention all the other races.

Remco is indeed freakishly good, and seems only to be getting better. That is indeed scary.

While I agree that until he wins the Tour, claiming to be number 1 is misguided, however, the other observation made against Pog simply being in a league of his own is not madness. In the Italian press/race commentators, evidently because Gianetti and Saronni have been behind his meteoric rise and they don't have a champion of their own, the idea has been that Pog is so superior that he "practices another sport." Just yesterday on the eve of Liege Michele Bartoli reckoned Pog is simply "way, way stronger" than Evenepoel, without considering, however, any evidence to the contrary. Not that Tadej isn't a phenomenom, but he does indeed have rivals among those that practice his sport. Vengegaard, MVDP, Roglic and, yes, Evenepoel.

It was a real loss we did not get the much anticipated battle between them in Liege, but with what Remco showed Pog may have been the only one who could have followed him (which is rather different than being just "way, way stronger").

 

[red_flanders]

Haven't seen it discussed much, but Remco's initial attack was hampered by slipping on a face painted on the pavement. I think if that hadn't happened the attack would have been much more effective from that spot than than the second effort which came very close to the top. As it was, Pidcock was able to hang on just enough to catch him. Not that it mattered whatsoever, I just thought it was interesting. I think he'd have gone clear on the Redoute without that little hiccup. He showed some patience in holding off and waiting a bit to go again when the road surface cleared up a bit.

Not sure what to make of Pidcock's comments after the race. He seemed bummed not to have won rather than being happy with second, which is understandable of course, but second at a monument is a great result. He said he had to decide between possibly (possibly, really?) blowing up on Remco's wheel and trying to be more tactical and go for second. The latter bit seems smart, but IMO he had exactly ZERO chance of staying with Remco on the Roche, but he was kind of stating it as a choice he had to make. It does make a little sense, as the rate at which he dropped time to Remco was crazy fast, and it could be explained by him turning off the jets and waiting for the other group...but it didn't really look like that on re-watching it. He was fighting for a while at least. And I think he was stone cold dropped. How did others feel about those comments if you saw them? I like Pidcock a lot, and I like that he has that champion mentality that he always thinks he can win, but this seemed...I don't know, I thought it was a little delusional. Dude, you got utterly crushed. It wasn't close. Give the props and move on.

Dry conditions and the win would have been way more emphatic. Remco took the descents super easy and I thought soft-pedaled from about 8k out.

Truly a shame about Pogi, both for him and for the clash we all missed out on. I don't know who would have attacked first, but I think clearly those two would have gone to the finale together. My money would have been on Pogi for the sprint, but I can't rule out the possibility that fighting with Remco would have tired him out enough for Remco to grab the win. Hardly impossible. But they're both young and this just raises the anticipation level for the next meeting. I don't see the wrist thing being that much of an issue. He's been on imperious form and clearly on a mission to take back the TdF title. I think Pogi is gonna win the Tour and I think he's going to do it in style.

Roglič better be on the form of his life for the Giro. Anything short of that, and he's f-ed.

 

[Berniece]

RvV>liege

Who decides these things? Completely different field, so why would one be more important than the other?

 

[jflemaire]

Van Wilder doesn't get enough praise. He was incredible.

 

[Extinction]

Haven't seen it discussed much, but Remco's initial attack was hampered by slipping on a face painted on the pavement. I think if that hadn't happened the attack would have been much more effective from that spot than than the second effort which came very close to the top. As it was, Pidcock was able to hang on just enough to catch him. Not that it mattered whatsoever, I just thought it was interesting. I think he'd have gone clear on the Redoute without that little hiccup. He showed some patience in holding off and waiting a bit to go again when the road surface cleared up a bit.

Not sure what to make of Pidcock's comments after the race. He seemed bummed not to have won rather than being happy with second, which is understandable of course, but second at a monument is a great result. He said he had to decide between possibly (possibly, really?) blowing up on Remco's wheel and trying to be more tactical and go for second. The latter bit seems smart, but IMO he had exactly ZERO chance of staying with Remco on the Roche, but he was kind of stating it as a choice he had to make. It does make a little sense, as the rate at which he dropped time to Remco was crazy fast, and it could be explained by him turning off the jets and waiting for the other group...but it didn't really look like that on re-watching it. He was fighting for a while at least. And I think he was stone cold dropped. How did others feel about those comments if you saw them? I like Pidcock a lot, and I like that he has that champion mentality that he always thinks he can win, but this seemed...I don't know, I thought it was a little delusional. Dude, you got utterly crushed. It wasn't close. Give the props and move on.

Dry conditions and the win would have been way more emphatic. Remco took the descents super easy and I thought soft-pedaled from about 8k out.

Truly a shame about Pogi, both for him and for the clash we all missed out on. I don't know who would have attacked first, but I think clearly those two would have gone to the finale together. My money would have been on Pogi for the sprint, but I can't rule out the possibility that fighting with Remco would have tired him out enough for Remco to grab the win. Hardly impossible. But they're both young and this just raises the anticipation level for the next meeting. I don't see the wrist thing being that much of an issue. He's been on imperious form and clearly on a mission to take back the TdF title. I think Pogi is gonna win the Tour and I think he's going to do it in style.

Roglič better be on the form of his life for the Giro. Anything short of that, and he's f-ed.

I think Roglic will be flying at the Giro and, with Jumbo backing him, it could be tough for Remco. The opening TT should already give some indication, because if Roglic loses little time or even beats Evenepoel, then this means he will be frightfully good. Of course, Remco too shall be incredibily fit, so the battle should be royal. If Evenepoel really gains time in the first two TTs, however, naturally this complicates Roglic's perspectives.

 

[Mayomaniac]

Still impressed by Velasco. In the breakaway all day long, caught before Remco made his move and still finished 19th, 2:13 down, 50sec behind the 5th placed rider. Everyone else who was in the breakaway finished at least 10min down. Then again, he was known for his engine in the u23 ranks and not that far behind his teammate Moscon when they both rode for Zalf.

 

[Berniece]

Van Wilder doesn't get enough praise. He was incredible.

Was he? I never understand his role. He’s always the last person in front of Remco, and I always have the feeling he puts the least amount of time in being actually in the front. But that’s maybe because his task is to accelerate the pace 1km before Remco wants to attack? So he basically goes all out and tries to suffocate the peloton for 1km and then Remco attacks.

 

[wheresmybrakes]

With people talking about Pog being the only one who could possible keep up with a Remco attack. It was one attack which was all that was needed to win this race, against the competition that was left. If Pog had still been in this race, he would have attacked multiple times on the hills. The question would be, could Remco have kept up with those multiple attacks that Pog could have done? I'm not so sure, but he may have got some time back on the flat parts.

 

[dazaau]

Who decides these things? Completely different field, so why would one be more important than the other?

History and interest I guess. I think most would agree that RvV or Paris Roubaix are the biggest one day races in the world. Plus unless I'm mistaken it's rarer for a gc guy to win RvV than liege?

 

[fox]

With people talking about Pog being the only one who could possible keep up with a Remco attack. It was one attack which was all that was needed to win this race, against the competition that was left. If Pog had still been in this race, he would have attacked multiple times on the hills. The question would be, could Remco have kept up with those multiple attacks that Pog could have done? I'm not so sure, but he may have got some time back on the flat parts.

In the Amstel Pogi dropped Pidcock with 1 move and in Liege, Evenepoel did the same. I don't believe for a second that Pogi could have dropped Remco or the other way around.

 

[KenFiamingo]

With people talking about Pog being the only one who could possible keep up with a Remco attack. It was one attack which was all that was needed to win this race, against the competition that was left. If Pog had still been in this race, he would have attacked multiple times on the hills. The question would be, could Remco have kept up with those multiple attacks that Pog could have done? I'm not so sure, but he may have got some time back on the flat parts.

I understand why people make these reflections, but IMO it's not fair to both Pogacar and Remco. They both showed ultimate greatness. And picturing what would/could have happened does nothing else but unrightfully downgrading the prestige and merit they created themselves.

The only thing we can do as fans is counting down to the next showdown where they're both in shape, which i imagine to be Lombardia.

 

[Riek s]

In the Amstel Pogi dropped Pidcock with 1 move and in Liege, Evenepoel did the same. I don't believe for a second that Pogi could have dropped Remco or the other way around.

Pogi didn't drop Pidcock with one move in amstel. he attacked a few times before, just not at his limit ? (we don't really know). His first real attack he dropped Haely, but he got back. the second time Pidcock blew up. (he was barely following the first attack, but he took over). and this was when they were already riding for 30km or so.

In lbl they all dropped on the first attack after being in the wheel. and they lost 1minute in less than 10km!
Now different parcour and most importantly different weather. But the id that Pog would be attacking all over the place, I seriously doubt that but we will never know.

Haven't seen it discussed much, but Remco's initial attack was hampered by slipping on a face painted on the pavement. I think if that hadn't happened the attack would have been much more effective from that spot than than the second effort which came very close to the top. As it was, Pidcock was able to hang on just enough to catch him. Not that it mattered whatsoever, I just thought it was interesting. I think he'd have gone clear on the Redoute without that little hiccup. He showed some patience in holding off and waiting a bit to go again when the road surface cleared up a bit.

Not sure what to make of Pidcock's comments after the race. He seemed bummed not to have won rather than being happy with second, which is understandable of course, but second at a monument is a great result. He said he had to decide between possibly (possibly, really?) blowing up on Remco's wheel and trying to be more tactical and go for second. The latter bit seems smart, but IMO he had exactly ZERO chance of staying with Remco on the Roche, but he was kind of stating it as a choice he had to make. It does make a little sense, as the rate at which he dropped time to Remco was crazy fast, and it could be explained by him turning off the jets and waiting for the other group...but it didn't really look like that on re-watching it. He was fighting for a while at least. And I think he was stone cold dropped. How did others feel about those comments if you saw them? I like Pidcock a lot, and I like that he has that champion mentality that he always thinks he can win, but this seemed...I don't know, I thought it was a little delusional. Dude, you got utterly crushed. It wasn't close. Give the props and move on.

Dry conditions and the win would have been way more emphatic. Remco took the descents super easy and I thought soft-pedaled from about 8k out.

I understood it as Pidcock dropped because he had blown his legs and decided to wait instead of trying to keep in front of the others (which he did in AGR and he blew up entirely due to riding alone).

 

[gavia88]

I too really don't like the finish-line on Quai des Ardennes, I would much prefer Parc d'Avroy. I also don't like the long plateau after RaF, better to descend Côte du Sart-Tilman.

I've had my eyes on Rue Ravinhay as a final difficulty: https://ridewithgps.com/routes/42641266

If one wants to skip RaF and make Redoute the only major climb in the finale, it needs a different approach. Maybe Lorcé is worth reintroducing.

I would skipp RaF and go straight from cote de force to Rue des Courteaux, imediately followed by the Rue Ravinhay mentioned by you.

 

[Berniece]

With people talking about Pog being the only one who could possible keep up with a Remco attack. It was one attack which was all that was needed to win this race, against the competition that was left. If Pog had still been in this race, he would have attacked multiple times on the hills. The question would be, could Remco have kept up with those multiple attacks that Pog could have done? I'm not so sure, but he may have got some time back on the flat parts.

I think Remco would have dropped Pogacar. Pogacar was clearly the past few weeks not in the form he was at De Ronde anymore, while Remco is now in amazing form.

Remco took more than 1min on the peloton, which could have been more but he didn't take any risk in downhill sections. This is more impressive than taking 20s on Ben Healy in an AGR where you were helped by the race director, so I would think he eventually would've dropped Pogacar too.

 

[Rob5091]

Re: Pidcock's post-race comments - I least he did n't say he forgot to eat again. Ineos must have worked on that problem. Also, Pidcock knows that Sir Jim and the rest of Ineos management are watching, so he's playing up his choice of tactics, when in reality he had no choice. Second was the best he could get.
My ol' hope for greatness Madouas got another 5th spot - one day he'll get his big win.

 

[Valanga]

I think Remco would have dropped Pogacar. Pogacar was clearly the past few weeks not in the form he was at De Ronde anymore, while Remco is now in amazing form.

Remco took more than 1min on the peloton, which could have been more but he didn't take any risk in downhill sections. This is more impressive than taking 20s on Ben Healy in an AGR where you were helped by the race director, so I would think he eventually would've dropped Pogacar too.

The past few weeks? The Ronde was 3 weeks ago. He raced 2 races since the Ronde. He won both.
He's a GT miracle kid, he can and knows how to keep his form for 3 weeks I would guess.

 

[Bolder]

I think Remco would have dropped Pogacar. Pogacar was clearly the past few weeks not in the form he was at De Ronde anymore, while Remco is now in amazing form.

Remco took more than 1min on the peloton, which could have been more but he didn't take any risk in downhill sections. This is more impressive than taking 20s on Ben Healy in an AGR where you were helped by the race director, so I would think he eventually would've dropped Pogacar too.

That is something we'll never know, but I think Pog would have been able to go with Remco. He's better than Pidcock.

 

[Carrick-On-Seine]

I think trying to put a #1 badge on anyone is futile, if not slightly childish.
There definitely is a "different league" though. And it contains six riders.

I know the other five winners of Monuments and GTs but who could be classed as the sixth? Van Aert? Pidcock???

 

[Berniece]

The past few weeks? The Ronde was 3 weeks ago. He raced 2 races since the Ronde. He won both.
He's a GT miracle kid, he can and knows how to keep his form for 3 weeks I would guess.

Should've said past week. I don't feel he was as strong during AGR as he was during De Ronde. Don't forget he was already very good during Paris-Nice and MSR.

 

[Big Doopie]

I'm sorry. But this is madness. They haven't even raced each other recently. And tour always, and forever, is bigger than the giro.

Remco is amazing, but do not tell me that winning liege and the giro puts him above Pog.

RvV>liege
Tour>giro

not to mention all the other races.

Remco is indeed freakishly good, and seems only to be getting better. That is indeed scary.

Chill. I did not say that at all. Truly u want to read whatever you want to read.

Fact: in the two point systems that I know, Remco has the chance to overtake Pog.

Fact: RVV is not more important than LBL. that is simply your own bias.

Fact: I NEVER said Remco was better. In fact many times I have said the opposite.

FACT: the entire point of my post was to point out that the chasm some here said exists between the two is simply magical thinking. I NEVER said that Remco was better. They are not that far apart. That was my only point, supported by fact.

And your last comments appear to agree with my entire point. So why the diatribe misrepresenting my post?

 

[dazaau]

Chill. I did not say that at all. Truly u want to read whatever you want to read.

Fact: in the two point systems that I know, Remco has the chance to overtake Pog.

Fact: RVV is not more important than LBL. that is simply your own bias.

Fact: I NEVER said Remco was better. In fact many times I have said the opposite.

FACT: the entire point of my post was to point out that the chasm some here said exists between the two is simply magical thinking. I NEVER said that Remco was better. They are not that far apart. That was my only point, supported by fact.

And your last comments appear to agree with my entire point. So why the diatribe misrepresenting my post?

I read "take over as #1", to mean as in superiority. Not as in the UCI points leaderboard. Sorry I misunderstood you, but it wasn't clear to me who doesn't take much note of the points system.

RvV is better than leige ; )

 

[red_flanders]

Who decides these things? Completely different field, so why would one be more important than the other?

The Belgians for the most part, and certainly the Flemish regard the Ronde as the unofficial World Championships of cycling. The cobbles make it (to many) a more special race, and for most riders it seems a bigger goal. And look at the difference in the fields. I certainly rate Flanders > Liege. I’ll concede that some of that may be my bias from half my family being Flemish, but I think by and large most folks share that view.

 

[Extinction]

The Belgians for the most part, and certainly the Flemish regard the Ronde as the unofficial World Championships of cycling. The cobbles make it (to many) a more special race, and for most riders it seems a bigger goal. And look at the difference in the fields. I certainly rate Flanders > Liege. I’ll concede that some of that may be my bias from half my family being Flemish, but I think by and large most folks share that view.

Sure, but look also who was also not present at Liege. Flanders is for a certain type of rider, Liege for another (with rare exceptions in today's cycling).

 

[Big Doopie]

The Belgians for the most part, and certainly the Flemish regard the Ronde as the unofficial World Championships of cycling. The cobbles make it (to many) a more special race, and for most riders it seems a bigger goal. And look at the difference in the fields. I certainly rate Flanders > Liege. I’ll concede that some of that may be my bias from half my family being Flemish, but I think by and large most folks share that view.

I think it is likely your bias. ;-)

I am not arguing that LBL is more important. But arguments can certainly be made…

LBL has the most history.

LBL is where GTs meet the monuments in the types of riders that compete for the win (Hinault who never won RVV)

When I was growing up in Belgium in the 70s, I do not remember RVV being more important. In fact, perhaps the opposite…

But that is likely my own bias. ;-)