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LNDD hacking : Arnie Baker in french jail ?

franciep10 said:
What's going on I don't understand french

This story broke last month. It mainly involves a hacker who was spying on Greenpeace. The same hacker turns out to have also been hired by FLandis' coach Arnie Baker to hack into LNDD. If you remember during the Landis defense there were a bunch of bogus e-mails that were distributed. These e-mails contained confidential documents, some of which may have been altered, that were taken from the LNDD via computer intrusion. The goal seemed to be to discredit the french lab.

The newest development is that the IP address of the person who hired the hacker has been identified as belonging to Baker. Landis and Baker were ordered to appear before french authorities to answer questions early this month. They did not show up, so the French are threatening to get international arrest warrants.
 
I wonder if this is what will finally break FLandis. Although I am usually cynical about the benefits of doing the right thing, I think that FLandis could largely redeem himself by telling all about both Phonak and Postal. He does not have much to lose.

Why play the part of a scapegoat? Where is the anger? Where is the spite? He should tear down the wall, and let the world see that his transgressions were minor compared to others.

Hamilton has to be about ready to crack. They should tag team each other. Maybe even Vaughters could be persuaded to finally tell the truth.

They need to think like Jack Burton: "Just remember what ol' Jack Burton does when the earth quakes, and the poison arrows fall from the sky, and the pillars of Heaven shake. Yeah, Jack Burton just looks that big ol' storm right square in the eye and he says, 'Give me your best shot, pal. I can take it.'"
 
Apr 1, 2009
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BroDeal said:
I wonder if this is what will finally break FLandis. Although I am usually cynical about the benefits of doing the right thing, I think that FLandis could largely redeem himself by telling all about both Phonak and Postal. He does not have much to lose.

Why play the part of a scapegoat? Where is the anger? Where is the spite? He should tear down the wall, and let the world see that his transgressions were minor compared to others'.

Hamilton has to be about ready to crack. They should tag team each other. Maybe even Vaughters could be persuaded to finally tell the truth.

They need to think like Jack Burton: "Just remember what ol' Jack Burton does when the earth quakes, and the poison arrows fall from the sky, and the pillars of Heaven shake. Yeah, Jack Burton just looks that big ol' storm right square in the eye and he says, 'Give me your best shot, pal. I can take it.'"

And you know what the big dog's response would be? The French got to him! It's a conspiracy. I never tested positive. Most tested athlete in the history of sport. Twitter...
 
Mar 10, 2009
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BroDeal said:
The same hacker turns out to have also been hired by FLandis' coach Arnie Baker to hack into LNDD.

If this turns out to be true I'm going to be able to laugh so hard at people who are as much Arnie Baker followers as the Lance bandwagon.

Arnie Baker has a few training books out and also proposed some kind of winged jersey to improve aerodynamics that was a laughing stock of jokes. Other side tid bit, Arnie and Flandis have a record on a tandem at a Arizona fund raiser 100+ mile ride, will that be taken down?
 
When Landis case was unfolding I actually got into an e-mail argument with Baker. I was surprised he responded to me, but I think I pi**** him off and that motivated him. I was basically making arguments along the lines of Big Boat, and he was telling me I didn't know what I was talking about. Well, I didn't and won't ever understand medicine on his level, but I still maintain what I was saying was factual (basically the same things we're all saying about doping).

BroDeal said:
I wonder if this is what will finally break FLandis. Although I am usually cynical about the benefits of doing the right thing, I think that FLandis could largely redeem himself by telling all about both Phonak and Postal. He does not have much to lose.

I think that would actually do him a great deal of good, and it would probably not change hardly anyone's perception of him. He would probably gain more cycling fans for doing so, actually. Reading Floyd's book, while I think much of it is fiction, and following his career, I think he has it in him to tell the truth. I don't know if it's because of his religious upbringing, but somewhere in there I see a person with a stronger moral core than people give him credit for that really got lead astray met the wrong people, and made some big mistakes. From what you said, and others have, he's basically broke, sleeping on couches, torn up pretty badly about his divorce, and in a bad place. I don't see spilling his guts taking him any further down than he already is. Quite the opposite.

As to Hamilton, I don't know. That guy sounds like a headcase. While I think it too would lift a huge burden off his shoulders, and there have been hints that he's about ready to crack, I honestly am not sure what he's going to say.

There is actually a lot of resourceful help out there these guys could get if they started making some phone calls. Vaughters, Andreu, Lemond, Hampsten, Len Pettyjohn, many more. I'm sure if Floyd or Tyler sought their help, they probably would, even Lemond. Greg would be an incredible pillar to stand behind in a time like this as he can't be intimidated and won't be pushed aside.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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BroDeal said:
They need to think like Jack Burton: "Just remember what ol' Jack Burton does when the earth quakes, and the poison arrows fall from the sky, and the pillars of Heaven shake. Yeah, Jack Burton just looks that big ol' storm right square in the eye and he says, 'Give me your best shot, pal. I can take it.'"

Something my wife will never understand...the appropriate movie quote says it all :D

btw...I will still watch that movie from start to finish everytime I happen upon it while channel surfing...
 
Apr 9, 2009
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flyor64 said:
Something my wife will never understand...the appropriate movie quote says it all :D

btw...I will still watch that movie from start to finish everytime I happen upon it while channel surfing...

"It's all in the reflexes."

So does anyone know how an "international arrest warrant" works if that's the route taken by the French authorities? Frankly, I'd be surprised to see anything come of this given the jurisditional issues.
 
Kennf1 said:
So does anyone know how an "international arrest warrant" works if that's the route taken by the French authorities? Frankly, I'd be surprised to see anything come of this given the jurisditional issues.

I don't know. They can probably hide out in the U.S. I imagine it throws a wrench into the works as far as FLandis returning to the european peloton.

Ob. quote: "Okay. You people sit tight, hold the fort and keep the home fires burning. And if we're not back by dawn... call the president."
 
Mar 19, 2009
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Those French f'ers are something. An arrest warrant? I hope they say F U .

Who really cares what Landis did or didn't do. He's just one dope(pun intended) of all the dopes in cycling. The tour that year he won was awesome, and no ... I don't care what the record books say.

For what it's worth..... I'm not a "fan" of his, or anyone else. I just watch racing.

It's laughable all the cries for Landis and everyone else to "come clean". Why don't you come clean too? ..... tell all the crap you've done in your life to your family, friends or whoever. Maybe even post it on youtube for maximum therapeutic value. Then get back to me about "coming clean".
 
Mar 10, 2009
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BigBoat said:
I meant it would be humiliating for Baker, but then again his credibility rating on this earth probably not above idle after that whole fiasco....LOL

I think he's a fanboy of Baker, they exist. There are riders doing the Baker workouts where they ride up hill in a 53x17 or so gear, the number of bad knees after that is kinda large, but you have to be a fanboy to continue to do that even after the whole spin/cadence mantra was introduced.

Sure everyone rides differently but why push everyone to do that?
 
ElChingon said:
I think he's a fanboy of Baker, they exist. There are riders doing the Baker workouts where they ride up hill in a 53x17 or so gear, the number of bad knees after that is kinda large, but you have to be a fanboy to continue to do that even after the whole spin/cadence mantra was introduced.

Sure everyone rides differently but why push everyone to do that?

LOL I must admit I did try doing those "big gear" intervals one year over the winter about 5 years ago. Didn't do jack ****e for me of course - took me a while to figure out that if you want to get good at riding your bike fast you should just ride your bike fast! And then rest lol.
 
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ElChingon said:
I think he's a fanboy of Baker, they exist. There are riders doing the Baker workouts where they ride up hill in a 53x17 or so gear,

Sure everyone rides differently but why push everyone to do that?

Thats F-d up big time. Bro, I saw an orthopedic surgeon a while back (several times) and everybody else I saw told me DO NOT DO BIG GEAR work.

Another doctor I saw also fits people professionally. And they all said NO BIG GEARS! ha! Even for normal riding they wanted me atleast 80 RPM.

Unless your a total stick man/woman the big gear work is pointless! If your 5 foot 10 and over 145 pounds your not a stick man...
 
Mar 19, 2009
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lostintime said:
Those French f'ers are something. An arrest warrant? I hope they say F U .

Who really cares what Landis did or didn't do. He's just one dope(pun intended) of all the dopes in cycling. The tour that year he won was awesome, and no ... I don't care what the record books say.

For what it's worth..... I'm not a "fan" of his, or anyone else. I just watch racing.

It's laughable all the cries for Landis and everyone else to "come clean". Why don't you come clean too? ..... tell all the crap you've done in your life to your family, friends or whoever. Maybe even post it on youtube for maximum therapeutic value. Then get back to me about "coming clean".

That was a great post actually... Point taken. I certainly sure the hell wouldnt do what you said... LOL

There are lots and lots (all the top men are doped to some degree.) I dont agree that it shouldnt be fought though... And you see I feel some guys who "miss the boat" are getting cheated out of top race results. Like Evans not getting 500cc of extra red cells before the final TT for example. Its ashame he lost, I was rooting for the man too.
 
Zoncolan said:
And you know what the big dog's response would be? The French got to him! It's a conspiracy. I never tested positive. Most tested athlete in the history of sport. Twitter...

I am not sure how well that would work.

I like Landis. I can only imagine how robbed he must feel to have had the money and the fame right in his grasp only to have everything snatched away at the last moment. To make matters worse, he knows full well that others not only got away with it but were protected in some cases by the powers that be.

I think that Landis botched his defense. He got bad advice. Some people seem to have used him for their own purposes of attacking the anti-doping infrastructure without regard to what the consequences might be for Landis. It also appears that the people around him were not very mature. Calling Lemond was stupid, but this business with hacking LNDD was crazy stupid. The recklessness of it is amazing. People go to prison for such things.

I don't blame him for fighting the doping charge. I would do the same. Although I would like to think that I would not paint myself into a corner like he did. I don't blame him for doping either. In any situation where there is a systemic problem, there are tremendous pressures and advantages for going along. No matter what people on forums say about these things as they paint such issues in black and white, I tend to think that if they were in a similar position then they would choose the same path as most of the european pros evidently have. But, of course, I am a rather cynical person. The reward/risk ratio for doping is very favorable for someone who was in Landis' position on the pro cycling ladder.

I really do not know what the good options are for Landis at this point. If it were me, I would be angry as hell about being made a primary scapegoat for what is standard practice. There would be a definite urge to burn the whole house down, whatever the consequences, by telling all.

Landis' worries about his future makes telling the truth difficult. He has raced bikes his whole life. I don't think he has much of an education. The thought of switching careers must be scary. Financially, the smart thing to do would be for him to hang his head, race a few more years, and collect what money he can before age forces him to retire from sport. Maybe he can make enough money racing domestically to ease the transition to the next phase of his life, which he should be planning right now.

Doing that leaves him a shamed figure. Every time an article on doping appears in the U.S. media, he will be mentioned as an example of a doper. His defense and denials have poisoned his image among a large segment of cycling fans--not as much as Hamilton but his image is pretty bad. I don't think I would want to live the rest of my life like that. I would want to spread the shame around by letting the public know the extent of the problem.

For me the short term financial issues would not trump the long term reputation issues. The reputation issues may also affect his long term financial issues. Landis' personality would play a big part in his course of action, though. Some people truly don't care what society thinks of them or they are comfortable or even delighted with being the bad boy. Maybe FLandis fits into that category. Although what seems cool when you are twenty or thirty may not seem quite as cool when you are forty...or fifty.

I also think that the times have changed enough that someone like Landis or Hamilton telling all would receive a very different reception than it would have three or four years ago, not just in the community of cycling fans but also in american society at large. Major sports stars in the United States gone to prison for lying about doping. Bonds is scheduled to go on trial for perjury. Manny Rameriz was just busted. What Landis or Hamilton could say would merely be confirmation of what a lot of non-fans already suspect about cycling.

Americans have a wide puritanical streak. They like to see everything in black and white. This will affect the way Landis is seen by the public. As part of that puritanical streak, though, is a belief in repentance and atonement. Americans have time and time again shown that they are willing to mostly absolve those who sincerely confess and ask for forgiveness. I tend to think that over the long term that telling the truth would be the best course of action for Landis.
 
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Alpe d'Huez said:
Reading Floyd's book, while I think much of it is fiction, and following his career, I think he has it in him to tell the truth. I don't know if it's because of his religious upbringing, but somewhere in there I see a person with a stronger moral core than people give him credit for that really got lead astray met the wrong people, and made some big mistakes.

I used to think that, but since that Tour the more I hear the less I like.

There was the rather pathetic(IMO) beer excuse, the supposed blackmailing of Le Mond and the hacking business. OK, perhaps he had nothing to do with those incidents, but it certainly doesn't look good. He cheated, and if he was that moral he'd take his punishment with good grace.

It's all very ugly.
 
Oh, no arguments here. Landis and especially his legal team (and manager's) behavior during the hearing was absolutely inexcusable, and in the end justice was served. I've said that before, and won't dispute it for one moment.

I only think that at some point both the weight of his past, and the feeling of total loss of his accomplishments, money, and family is going to collapse and Floyd is going to crack, and along with that there's a chance he'll spill his guts. One of the things I think that drives that is his upbringing. But we'll see. As BroDeal says, Hamilton is probably closer to completely cracking, but Tyler is such a non compos I don't know what he'll really say.
 
May 14, 2009
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Probably Floyd wants to clean his doping case by saying the truth but could he do it?
Could he became a Marion Jones after revealing that he lied during the hearing? Isn't it a big offense in USA?
 
Mar 10, 2009
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BroDeal said:
I think that FLandis could largely redeem himself by telling all about both Phonak and Postal. He does not have much to lose.

Why play the part of a scapegoat? Where is the anger? Where is the spite? He should tear down the wall, and let the world see that his transgressions were minor compared to others.

Hamilton has to be about ready to crack. They should tag team each other. Maybe even Vaughters could be persuaded to finally tell the truth.

Because that would destroy their careers, something they cling to.
All the time they keep quiet, there is the uncertainty about how much they actually cheated, this gives them the benefit of the doubt and some credibility.
 

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